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After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter

    I guess that's what I want.  Currently, the tank is always the warrior in MMOs.  It doesn't matter if the mob is completely magical and could/should devastate a warrior.  How much more interesting would it be if the mage had to "tank" the mob by casting spells and counterspelling while the warrior attacked when vulnerabilities opened up?

    You know that's a very good point.

    Maybe the core of the issue is just that people want to play the way "they want to play". When given a scenario where they "can't do their thing" they feel dissatisfied. Whether one player wants full hybrid and the other wants very clear, specific classes.

    What would happen if a mage was asked to tank? Would they? since it's not really done would someone who played a mage just drop group or never join encounters where only a mage could tank?

    I think this stems from all these years of classes being subjugated to one specific role.  There was no other way of thinking.  I agree at first people will complain that as a dps, you'll have to tank but I think over time people will find the game to be more dynamic and exciting that way.  Sometimes it's good to be out of your comfort zone to experience new things.

    Change is always met with opposition, regardless of whether a system would be improved or not.

    As a point of note, I was shocked playing my first mmo (lineage 2) and could't understand why there weren't "light spells' and "tentacle spells" and shield spells and all the other little spells that made being a mage in Neverwinter nights fun.

    I did blast a lot of things.

  • SpectralHunterSpectralHunter So CalPosts: 391Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    As a point of note, I was shocked playing my first mmo (lineage 2) and could't understand why there weren't "light spells' and "tentacle spells" and shield spells and all the other little spells that made being a mage in Neverwinter nights fun.

    I did blast a lot of things.

    Hehe.  I was more confused as to why the dark elf females ran the way they did. 

    I will concede this point.  Having a trinity system is easier on the devs.  NWN was/is a great game but it's not balanced.  In a MMO, classes have to be balanced (perhaps this paradigm needs to change?).

    But yeah, I still hope and wish for a MMO like NWN.  Hopefully it'll happen before I die or am unable to play video games.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    Here's how I view the trinity and all the wonderful things it has done for me in the past.......

     

    It made looking for, and forming a group very difficult every time.  The group had to be organized perfectly.  You had to have so much tank, so much DPS, and so much healing from a healer.  Even in a guild setting someone often got left out or couldn't go because of this mechanic. 

     

    Also....well.......there's nothing else.  That's about it. 

     

    And that is all the wonderful things the trinity has done for me in mmos.  That is the sole purpose it has ever served me. 

     

    Yea, I'd rather seriously not have it.  Thanks. 

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter
     

    You are very correct. But quite frankly that's how mmo's should be. Warriors should be dishing out damage and AOE spells were never fired into the fray. That's just common senes. Clerics were in the front but I don't remember them being killer Damage dealers.

    The idea being that in D&D players had roles. Mages didn't march into the battle and Thieves/Rogues were always trying to get the upper hand in a sneaky way.

    I don't think anyone, myself included, would say that mmo's and table top have a 1 to 1 correlation as to how accurate their rules transfer.

    But the idea is that in D&D we had roles, and roles that each of us wanted to embody. I think when people are asking "do you want to have the holy trinity back, what they are saying is they want to embody those roles. If anyone can be in front, if anyone can be healing, if anyone wield magic then things stop becoming unique.

    Like I said in an earlier post: Any game with any amount of specialization will have roles, be that warriors and mages or close-quarter specialists with shotguns and snipers long range rifles. GW2 certainly has roles, they are only different from what some are used to. I don't have any problem with roles - I don't think anyone does. I only have problem with the holy trinity and the accompanying aggro mechanics which make combat so unnaturally formulaic.

    Some single player games have even started using it! And there is no excuse! The resources do not constrict you in a way that you can only maintain a threat table and/or attack the player nearest to them. It is unforgivable in this day and age; I could exploit the poor AI in Baldur's Gate, Morrowind and more than half of the MMORPGs I've played, but now I expect more.

    I die a little inside everytime when I see a SRPG using holy trinity. Even in Bordrerlands some abilities and weapons cause "less threat". It is in too many games, I tell you... and I can't escape it! I have never liked it and it is now more widely used than ever.

    A good AI challenges you. It makes you think. This was the role of the GM in P&P games. Holy trinity just makes you go on autopilot. I'm at a point where I am willing to try anything other than that horrible, horrible system.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • EmrendilEmrendil TirionPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

     

    also seems pretty common practice people get very complacent in certain things and when something new comes along instead of trying to learn it they cry they want what they know back.. Me personally I get bored with same old same old all the time and happy to learn something new..

    People hate change, even if it's an improvement.

    Yep, why fix something if it' ain't broken. Not all new things are better.

    I think in this case, neither system is better then the other. It's just about personal preference.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    A good AI challenges you. It makes you think. This was the role of the GM in P&P games. Holy trinity just makes you go on autopilot. I'm at a point where I am willing to try anything other than that horrible, horrible system.

    I think it''s less about a trinity of roles (keep in mind that I'm for a "soft" trinity or just about anything where one can have a focus on some sort of role) and what you said in that it's more about AI and how these encounters play out. You can have definite roles and still have complex fights but as you put it, the AI needs to be adaptive, intelligent, and more than rinse and repeat encounters.

    Part of this is that mmo devs have completely gone down the simplification rabbit hole. I agree that just having a Tank shouting and keeping aggro and then the Damage dealers burning down the enemy (and for "some" reason they don't mind this) and then a healer to fill up a Tank is horrible. And it does contribute to Auto Pilot. But that has nothing to do with the stalwart warrior protectingg those who are not tough but who wield arcane powers or who skirt the fight waitting for moments of opportunity.

    I play a tank in Tera, a game that does have roles, and it was quite refreshing for the 30 foot tall Baddie go for the healer, I couldn't get aggro so I charged across the room, putting myself between it and the healer, shield slammed it and then turned to throw out a chain and lpull a mob to me that was charging for another player in the group. It wasn't about being the tank and soaking damage as opposed to being an active participant in the fight. Which is mor e to my taste.

    Part of this is also a group of players who are more interested in "leveling fast" and getting good loot. Therefore the entire experience has come down to a simplified skinner box.

    take quest, run to glowy area on map, kill 10 things, run back to other glowy area on map, turn in quest, get reward, rinse and repeat.

    As opposed to allowing players to explore, search, scout, find their objectives, fight if need be and during that fight they excercise their specializations that, because they work together, they are greater than their own individual contributions.

     

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member
    I also enjoy my lancer in TERA for the same reasons. Vanguard also brought. A lot of new things to combat with rescues for tanks. Counter spells for casts. The reactive abilities re nice.
  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member

    how sophisicated do you think AI in an mmo is going to get? are mobs going to completely ignore heavily armored characters and concentrate solely on unarmored casters? are they going to retreat while relentlessly firing projectiles until everyone is dead?

     

    pen and paper games aren't restricted by video game dynamics so you can't really compare them in that regard.

  • EsLafielEsLafiel Radford, VAPosts: 92Member

    I like gw2 system, however for most it a zerg. Because 2 reasons,

     

    First with their system it is possible to work together, hell you can do really awesome things if done right. With 2 Mesmers you can keep all buff perma up, if done right.  However, because their no YOU MUST DO THIS,,,, people get confuse and so it turn into a zerg. Since it take's a lot more communication to do team work in gw2. Which only people who have teamspeak and know each other well can do it right.

     

    Second they made dgns and such way to freaking easy, and so it not needed and when something not needed people dont use it.  Dgn are to the point that a fullly dps team, with no support are tanking abilities can beat them.

    Hell I can solo multy dgns and I know a dps warrior that can solo dgns.

    So this is a major problems, now the higher lvl fract can make it where a team gotta use some teamwork to beat it. However, those are the only things.  This needs to be fix, make it where dgns are extrmely hard. At first people will cry and some will elave the game. However, team work among the players will start to apper.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by EsLafiel

    I like gw2 system, however for most it a zerg. Because 2 reasons,

     

    First with their system it is possible to work together, hell you can do really awesome things if done right. With 2 Mesmers you can keep all buff perma up, if done right.  However, because their no YOU MUST DO THIS,,,, people get confuse and so it turn into a zerg. Since it take's a lot more communication to do team work in gw2. Which only people who have teamspeak and know each other well can do it right.

     

    Second they made dgns and such way to freaking easy, and so it not needed and when something not needed people dont use it.  Dgn are to the point that a fullly dps team, with no support are tanking abilities can beat them.

    Hell I can solo multy dgns and I know a dps warrior that can solo dgns.

    So this is a major problems, now the higher lvl fract can make it where a team gotta use some teamwork to beat it. However, those are the only things.  This needs to be fix, make it where dgns are extrmely hard. At first people will cry and some will elave the game. However, team work among the players will start to apper.

    i agree with your first point and two mesmers working together is really amazing.. took down a champion with just one other mesmer.. took us about 30 min but we did it without a single down was epic stuff:)

    for dungeons i find it funny how polar opposite people are on dungeon diffculty.. one half says they are brain dead easy the other half quit because they are too hard.. dungeons being too hard especially now you can't rez zerg the encounters is one of the most common complaints i see... yes you can beat them with 5 warriors but those 5 warriors would have to all really know their class which is how the dungeons were intended to be in the first place.. any combo of classes should be able to complete a dungeon as long as the group is skilled enough.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Lik the 2 Mesmer any class combination can go brilliantly if played right. Last week I grouped up with a hunter in Orr and done some wandering about when we found a maze. After battling through the maze we found a champion with some adds. As an ele I went kite and cc while the hunter blasted him- was a great fight :). Re dungeons it's not the class that matters its the build of the classes, e.g condition removal and boon play.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    Yes and No.

    Bringing the Trio back / making those builds necessary would serve to make people experiment with builds that work well together. On the other hand it will bring us back to predjudices like "Necros and eles can't tank" or  "Guardian and ele you heal" and parties will be far more picky.

    It's nice but I think it would just serve them better to introduce boss mechanics beyond "have more hitpoints" and "spawn more dudes". Fights aren't hard enough in GW2, they are just long.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    no.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • DraemosDraemos Antartica, AKPosts: 1,469Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Please lord, let us have another game that understands additional roles, some day.

    Tank, healer, dps is all right, but so limiting. I'm sure if you asked gamers, we may remember a few other roles...

    OTOH, too many roles and pugs do get confused..

    The op could only conceive of two possible outcomes, it seems.

    Most games also roll up controller, AoE, buffer, debuffer, etc into the trinity.  It hasn't been a pure trinity for awhile.

     

    But yes, I do support the trinity,  it works, and I haven't seen an alternative option so far that I cared for.

  • Scripture1Scripture1 Philadelpihia, PAPosts: 426Member
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    So as the title asks. We have seen a game launch now that tried to break the mold and offer us a game that didn't rely on the holy trinity. Some like it some don't.. So how does everyone here feel that has tried a non holy trinity game? Do yu think games are better  with the trinity or witha massive hybrid system like GW2 offered or something close to it..Vote and discuss below.

     

    For me it all depends on the game. However; I also feel like we should have a choice and not just be subjected to one option. I like the hybrid some days and some days I want the trinity... That's just me though

    image
  • Osias000Osias000 Lenox, MIPosts: 110Member

    I like to be a healer. Sometimes its fairly rewarding to be the only reason a group was able to take down some very hard to kill boss because you placed the right heals at the right time. I like GW2, but there is something about the trinity that just makes MMOs fun for me.

    I say keep the trinity and let GW do their own thing, and have a little bit of both. People seem to think its impossible, but not all games have to be exactly the same.

    "cinnamon buns"
    - Pickles

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    Thank god it's gone.

    The old trinity of tank, healer and dps is gone, it was boring and it's outdated.

    There are still class roles however, both in MMORPGSs like GW2 and in MOBA: things like support, damage, CC, etc

    These new roles show that gameplay has become more complex and more skill-based.

    Let's face it, tank aggro mechanics, healing being just pressing frames and making the green bar go up, damage being just a matter of playing simon-says with a few buttons (or more usually a naga macro) - all this stuff is old, and it's crap gameplay.

    Games like WoW are dinosaurs now, played by kids and the immature adults who can't move on.

    The real games that gamers play are things like LoL, DOTA, GW2, etc - games that have done away with outdated RPG mechanics and are more skill-based, more flexible and ultimately much deeper. And without 36 hotkeys either.

    image

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by EsLafiel

    I like gw2 system, however for most it a zerg. Because 2 reasons,

     

    First with their system it is possible to work together, hell you can do really awesome things if done right. With 2 Mesmers you can keep all buff perma up, if done right.  However, because their no YOU MUST DO THIS,,,, people get confuse and so it turn into a zerg. Since it take's a lot more communication to do team work in gw2. Which only people who have teamspeak and know each other well can do it right.

     

    Second they made dgns and such way to freaking easy, and so it not needed and when something not needed people dont use it.  Dgn are to the point that a fullly dps team, with no support are tanking abilities can beat them.

    Hell I can solo multy dgns and I know a dps warrior that can solo dgns.

    So this is a major problems, now the higher lvl fract can make it where a team gotta use some teamwork to beat it. However, those are the only things.  This needs to be fix, make it where dgns are extrmely hard. At first people will cry and some will elave the game. However, team work among the players will start to apper.

    i have to agree with this guy !

     

    getting out of the gameplay the holy trinity its like moving the limits from the sky to the stars ..! just the trinity it was good back 10 years but now i cant accept a designer who sticks on that formula ...

    about GW2 they have done nice work and i appreciate their expirement, of course it has its flaws and some dungeons are really scrapped but theior core mechanic its awesome, and here you just mentioned 2 mesmers cooperate, have you get an engineer who plays with bombs which heals ??? or i play in Aurora Glade, and sometimes i WvW with a guild called Furious cookies and we have gone many times 15-20 guys against double enemies ... and i am not any pro player

    with the trinity system the whole game would be boring, i cant play games based on the trinity system and on the forced roles ..

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    The real games that gamers play are things like LoL, DOTA, GW2, etc - games that have done away with outdated RPG mechanics and are more skill-based, more flexible and ultimately much deeper. And without 36 hotkeys either.

    Don't forget D3. D3 has very much varying mechanics. Wizard that freeze-stun mobs. Witch doctors that summon zombie dogs and constantly blowing them up (no i am not kidding .. this is the zero dog build .. you just keep summoning and destorying them). Barb that wizz around in a whirlwind.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    What I don't like about the trinity is that you get stuck in your role. The GW2 system seemed to try and free people from playing a certain part only, and that is something that seems to go against the collective MMORPG DNA these days.

    I hate playing a one trick pony though, it makes the battles too predictable. The chaos of GW2 is certainly hard to get used to, but at least they tried something different.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Strickly talking aboue PvE, my problem with GW2 is it's not balance.

    And since there is no "holy trinity" everyone should be the same efficient wise.  Everyclass should "be able" to tank the same, dps the same, defense the same, support the same.  Else there will always be class that are favored for certain dungeon.

    I think everyone know by now, dps warrior is by far the best class to have in speed farm.  And guardian is by far the best class for harder dungeon because of their defensive ability.

    Even though other class may potentially having high dps or very surival, they just don't have warrior's ability to buff their teamates, and guardians' ability to help their teamates defensively at the same time.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member

    The trinity system is better than what GW2 has. Actually, having played MMORPG's since 2002, I have no idea why people call it the trinity system, since there's actually several roles. Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Magic DPS, Buffer, Healer, Controller. Those roles were typically filled in every group in MMO's pre-WoW. When WoW came out, it combined many of those roles to narrow down the amount of people needed and for 1v1 balance sake.

    That's my roundabout way of saying that GW2 didn't eliminate the need for the "trinity." The game still requires players to fill certain roles in each group. People act like what they're doing wasn't being done with the trinity. People are more self aware of controlling and supporting now, but you always had those jobs in other MMORPG's, it's just games like WoW made it pointless to try since you could just aoe dps everything down in mere seconds.

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Would rather see a hybrid system over the over played and abused trinity. I played a healer for over 6 years in WoW and found myself doing PvP healing mostly in the end because the other was toooo boring and predictable.

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  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nate1980

    The trinity system is better than what GW2 has. Actually, having played MMORPG's since 2002, I have no idea why people call it the trinity system, since there's actually several roles. Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Magic DPS, Buffer, Healer, Controller. Those roles were typically filled in every group in MMO's pre-WoW. When WoW came out, it combined many of those roles to narrow down the amount of people needed and for 1v1 balance sake.

    That's my roundabout way of saying that GW2 didn't eliminate the need for the "trinity." The game still requires players to fill certain roles in each group. People act like what they're doing wasn't being done with the trinity. People are more self aware of controlling and supporting now, but you always had those jobs in other MMORPG's, it's just games like WoW made it pointless to try since you could just aoe dps everything down in mere seconds.

    Unfortunately WoW killed any CC need during WotLK and shortly before. Buffs became standard and most classes had similar buffs for support, so it pretty much became a trinity.

    image

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILPosts: 1,710Member Uncommon

    I never had any issues with the trinity.  I don't know why it was ever under siege.  It still allowed for 'in between'  classes for those who didn't want to be one of the three.  GW2 seems to work fine without it, but it makes for melee battles that don't have much strategy as far as I'm concerned.  It's just a zerg IMO.  The trinity allowed groups to play together as a team, and provided a bit more strategy as far as I'm concerned, since you had to keep people alive, or keep away the monsters from the squishies.

     

    To each his own, but my vote goes to the trinity.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

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