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After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by botrytis
     

    But there is no reason why a "trinity" system couldn't be made that relied upon warriors blocking/protecting their allies while the squishier players shield themselves (taking themselves out of the equation) or moving to a better vantage point.

    I know some people say that games like D&D didn't have a trinity but they sort of did. It just didn't rely upon this whole "agrro/hate" mechanic.

    there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

    Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

    First, its not that: Some melee fighters had to be tough in order to survive in melee. Others used their mobility and abilities to avoid damage. Having someone tough in the front was never mandatory like it is in trinity games. Defense in trinity consists of soaking damaga and repairing damage - The most idiotic form of defense there is if you ask me.

    Second, in D&D, there was no shooting into melee due to friendly fire. AOE farming was not possible for the same reason.

    Third: Ranged healing spells were rare, so while the party almost always had a divine spellcaster with them (Cleric/Druid) healing was somewhat unwieldy and was only reserved for emergencies in mid combat.

    D&D is quite far from the holy trinity.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TsumoroTsumoro EozeaPosts: 408Member Uncommon

    Both methods are best, for differen't reasons. I would say however that its harder for developers to make a non-trinity based MMO work well. Guild Wars 2, in my opinion does not have this work so well. It is very messy in my eyes.

    The trouble with the tank, healer and DPS build is that not many people tend to play the core classes (tank and healing) leaving a huge populace of DPS looking for groups. People just don't like the responsibility behind it and in honest DPS can be BIG jerks towards tanks and healers. 

    I have played all classes and all paths in most MMO's I have played and I would say as a tank, I get a lot of grief, even though I've not been responsible for a wipe for the longest of times. Anyone actively being aggressive towards me or the healer I kick, or if I can't I leave. It'll take them 20 mins to get another me, takes me 20 seconds to get another one of them. 

    Now with non-trinity based games its a missed opputunity in my opinion. For it to truely to work they need to do away with lock on's and hit boxes. To make skills and abilities more attentive than automatic. A big emphasis should also be placed on craftables. It should be the norm to be self efficent with regens and armour/resist based potions. 

    Boss mechanics need to change from a tank and spank scenario, to a more mechanic based combat which the environment could be a huge asset. 

    In short, Trinity works, its efficent, its easy but not everyone wants to play core classes and progression suffers. It is also easier for developers to replicate this style, it is universal and gets people with MMO experience interested with a system they already understand. 

    Non trinity also works-ish, because I still think it needs more love and thinking, but I do think the potential to grow with a non-trinity build is vastly larger than trinity itself. 

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by krage

     

    The thing is there is a soft trinity in GW2, you can tank/heal and DPS in your group based on the scenario and aggro. 

    Aggro/Tanking

    Aggro is based on 

    • closest target to them
    • who is dealing damage
    • top damage dealers
    • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
    • who is rezzing, they usually take aggro on rezzing channel

    This is somewhat incorrect, though I do agree with the rest of your post.

    Aggro in GW2 is actually based on:

    - Proximity to target

    - Who's dealing the most damage

    - Who has the highest toughness

    - Who has the lowest amount of health

    Each stat gets a certain 'weight' to it, toughness being weighed the most heavily, proximity being weighed the least. The person who weighs most heavily over those multiple categories is the one who gets hit. Things like whether you're wearing a shield, or ressing someone doesn't factor into aggro at all. Neither does healing from what I've seen. In fact the best 'tank' you can be in GW2 is either a guardian using GS / scepter, focus. Downed players tend to get aggro, because they often have the lowest health pool in the group (it's generally significantly lower than a max-health player), and as a result sometimes you get hit trying to res a downed player.

    That aside, the system (as like any other system) can easily be manipulated & exploited once you understand it. I gave an example a few pages back about stacking on guardians for smooth dungeon runs, with warriors doing the majority of DPS.

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tsumoro

    Both methods are best, for differen't reasons. I would say however that its harder for developers to make a non-trinity based MMO work well. Guild Wars 2, in my opinion does not have this work so well. It is very messy in my eyes.

    The trouble with the tank, healer and DPS build is that not many people tend to play the core classes (tank and healing) leaving a huge populace of DPS looking for groups. People just don't like the responsibility behind it and in honest DPS can be BIG jerks towards tanks and healers. 

    I have played all classes and all paths in most MMO's I have played and I would say as a tank, I get a lot of grief, even though I've not been responsible for a wipe for the longest of times. Anyone actively being aggressive towards me or the healer I kick, or if I can't I leave. It'll take them 20 mins to get another me, takes me 20 seconds to get another one of them. 

    Now with non-trinity based games its a missed opputunity in my opinion. For it to truely to work they need to do away with lock on's and hit boxes. To make skills and abilities more attentive than automatic. A big emphasis should also be placed on craftables. It should be the norm to be self efficent with regens and armour/resist based potions. 

    Boss mechanics need to change from a tank and spank scenario, to a more mechanic based combat which the environment could be a huge asset. 

    In short, Trinity works, its efficent, its easy but not everyone wants to play core classes and progression suffers. It is also easier for developers to replicate this style, it is universal and gets people with MMO experience interested with a system they already understand. 

    Non trinity also works-ish, because I still think it needs more love and thinking, but I do think the potential to grow with a non-trinity build is vastly larger than trinity itself. 

    Hmm started out agreeing with you then you headed down the rabbit hole of "action combat".  IMHO "action combat" is a rather silly attempt to get console players interested in MMORPG's.

    While not having a target lock  or a hit box in a console game played with a few people in your living room is OK, it makes no sense in an MMORPG where some people will be on 45ms ping times and others maybe on 450ms ping times (yes people do play MMO's with 450ms ping times and lots of them too).

    As for "mechanic" based combat this is a widely held falacy. What happens when someone finds a way of avoiding a mechanic?

     Do you use the technique or continue to play the mechanic because it is "so much fun"?

    ANSWER:  We all use the technique to avoid the mechanic, and this is because they are not fun at all, some of us just like to think they are.

    In any case the point in discussion (trinity or no-trinity) has little to do with other discussions like targetting method and "action combat".  They are independent discussions.

    Personally I would like to see a more complex version of MMO combat, one where having multiple mellee class players in a mutually supporting line takes the place of a single tank, where support and utility are important and where no-one stands behind the mob in a "puppy pile".

  • codykalmakoffcodykalmakoff mckinney, TXPosts: 5Member
    i hate the holy trinity cause i dont waiting on a monk to heal or what not i think anet did a good job not to put holy trinity on gw2 if they did i would go some where else to play a none holy trinity model game if it was a holy trinity model i would choose heros over human players cause heros dont go afk and you can control them and humans go afk and cant control them and also heros dont d/c they are loyal to the player heros are if you disagree on this just let the wars began

    Be yourself don't act like some one else

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Okay.

    I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

    Warcraft? Armies? Winning wars?

    Sending in the tanks to be surrounded and slaughtered by the enemy? Terrific strategy (not)?

    Thats not an RPG. And I wasnt talking about splitting the party. I was talking about sending the tanks in first, meaning they get attacked first and not, for example, the squishy mage.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

    Which, for a game like with a name like "Warcraft" is just ludicrous, as in "man. that sounds like a terrific way to lose battles".

    Not much similarity to WC3, either :(

    You could "tank" in Baldur's Gate only because the AI was poor and easily exploitable. What was thought as a weakness then someone made a whole mechanic out of it. These days, Bioware's RPGs have taunt in them ... And they are worse for it imo.

    You could as well argue BG2 forced you to think about formation. Because if the squishy mages goes in first, well, dead mage.

    I wouldnt call that an "exploit", it was clearly an intended mechanic. Its also an intended mechanic in pen and paper RPG sessions.

    I'm not saying BG2's AI was perfect, but the mobs often had a heck of a lot more abilities than most MMO mobs.

     

  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member
    i'm going to make a bold prediction and say that conventional aggro mechanisms are the only thing that will work in an mmo. i imagine it would be a logistical nightmare to attempt to implement something else.
  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member

    I love the independance the GW2 system offers and delivers.

    What I hated in the holy trinity system that some posters probably forgetting was:

    - the exclusion of people if they didn't fit a certain role

    - the blame game 24/7 either on someone that wasn't "good enough" in his role or people that always blamed others to cover their own mistakes

    - the waiting like several hours to get the right people together and disband after without being able to do content only because you couldn't get the people together that you needed

    - elitism of the people which is much more present in trinity based games

    - having a type of skillset was a "must have"  cause if you didn't had it, you would be dropped from the party even if you class was fitting.

    In GW2 we just took people in the group that asked for one, no matter what class they were and with good teamwork run dungeons, fractals, events without having to do "corpse runs".

    So for me it's the hybrid system. :)

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by supertouchme
    i'm going to make a bold prediction and say that conventional aggro mechanisms are the only thing that will work in an mmo. i imagine it would be a logistical nightmare to attempt to implement something else.

    There are several games that employ less conventional aggro systems.  Bottom line though you are allways going to have rules that determine who bubbles up to top of the threat table.  The difference with non -trinity is not the threat model, its the fact a single player switches between tank/dps/healer mid fight.  older trinity cant cope with this because of 'balancing' ..its about time it evolved rather than stagnating with rules that were developed 5-10 years ago - things SHOULD progress, and if its not something is stifling creativity.

    You are arguing for stagnation in effect, new games should constantly be mixing/matching/developing new rules to keep it fun for us players no?

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by supertouchme
    i'm going to make a bold prediction and say that conventional aggro mechanisms are the only thing that will work in an mmo. i imagine it would be a logistical nightmare to attempt to implement something else.

    That's the point.  One system is never the only system that will work, it's just what people are used to and comfortable with.  Every video game genre since Pong has mixed things up to make better games, MMOs can do it too.

    If you notice, almost all of the people who vote against the GW2 aggro system (on MMORPG anyway) either don't believe/know how it works or they just had bad dungeon experiences.  I really don't see what's wrong with variety in an industry that people complained was getting stale for nearly half a decade.  Not all games will adopt hybrid systems, there should be plenty of things to play for everyone.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon

    I would be quite happy with different models. To me the "threat/aggro" mechanic is so incredibly stupid that it only works for me in a comedy setting.

    Most of all I wish that the people who only likes the holy trinity would stop trying to turn every different game into yet another holy trinity borefest!

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
     

    That's the point.  One system is never the only system that will work, it's just what people are used to and comfortable with.  Every video game genre since Pong has mixed things up to make better games, MMOs can do it too.

    If you notice, almost all of the people who vote against the GW2 aggro system (on MMORPG anyway) either don't believe/know how it works or they just had bad dungeon experiences.  I really don't see what's wrong with variety in an industry that people complained was getting stale for nearly half a decade.  Not all games will adopt hybrid systems, there should be plenty of things to play for everyone.

    Anet is on record on saying the highlighted red is essentially their fault; 'Tutorials for new players needs to be looked at'.

    I wouldn't blame the players when the game company themselves did such an awful job in explaining their game.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    What's funny about this thread is that I wasn't even aware the Trinity was gone.  What games are abandoning the trinity?
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Well there is a problem with not being able to find tanks and healers.

    But I prefer an eve style soloution when you change your ship to change your role.
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Well there is a problem with not being able to find tanks and healers.

    But I prefer an eve style soloution when you change your ship to change your role.

    Either that or use a FFXI style class system where a single character can level up many jobs.  Then all he has to do is switch to perform a different role.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • VaelgardVaelgard Boston, MAPosts: 59Member Uncommon
    To keep it short, I feel like a lot of the other people on this thread feel.  I was highly anticipating GW2 and its lack of holy trinity, but in practice it was pretty much always a cluster****.  I love being DPS, and constantly trying to improve my numbers by tweaking skills, specs, and gear.  In GW2 there is no real tweaking because it's difficult to tell how you are doing when you have to raise a downed player, or throw a heal, or grab aggro.  Chaos, on paper, sounds fun, but I love the strategy and well defined roles that go into something like WoW raiding. :)
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Vaelgard
    To keep it short, I feel like a lot of the other people on this thread feel.  I was highly anticipating GW2 and its lack of holy trinity, but in practice it was pretty much always a cluster****.  I love being DPS, and constantly trying to improve my numbers by tweaking skills, specs, and gear.  In GW2 there is no real tweaking because it's difficult to tell how you are doing when you have to raise a downed player, or throw a heal, or grab aggro.  Chaos, on paper, sounds fun, but I love the strategy and well defined roles that go into something like WoW raiding. :)

    LOL - tweaking - so you want the endless gear grind. I guess I am not with you on that.You CAN tweak your skills in GW2 - if you think you can't then you are mistaken. As a player who did both heal and DPS, in Rift, I can tell you that having someone else to heal, rez, etc is a nice thing.

     

    People keep saying there is strategy with the trinity - how? The Tank just does that - the DPS - pew, pew, pew the target and healers just to that. There is NO strategy to anything in that.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Eden Prairie, MNPosts: 338Member
    Why do people still play MMO's if all they want is a single player game? Once the roles are gone, there's no point to getting online anymore. Go back to your fallouts and skyrims and enjoy your non-trinity option, because that's all you've got when it's taken away.
  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    What's funny about this thread is that I wasn't even aware the Trinity was gone.  What games are abandoning the trinity?

    GW2 clones. Duh ;-)

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Vaelgard
    To keep it short, I feel like a lot of the other people on this thread feel.  I was highly anticipating GW2 and its lack of holy trinity, but in practice it was pretty much always a cluster****.  I love being DPS, and constantly trying to improve my numbers by tweaking skills, specs, and gear.  In GW2 there is no real tweaking because it's difficult to tell how you are doing when you have to raise a downed player, or throw a heal, or grab aggro.  Chaos, on paper, sounds fun, but I love the strategy and well defined roles that go into something like WoW raiding. :)

    LOL - tweaking - so you want the endless gear grind. I guess I am not with you on that.You CAN tweak your skills in GW2 - if you think you can't then you are mistaken. As a player who did both heal and DPS, in Rift, I can tell you that having someone else to heal, rez, etc is a nice thing.

     

    People keep saying there is strategy with the trinity - how? The Tank just does that - the DPS - pew, pew, pew the target and healers just to that. There is NO strategy to anything in that.

     

    raiding surely takes some coordination but regular dungeons not so much...found to proficiently clear gw2 dungeons you need far more coordination or at least people who were compitent players than holy trinity games... if you feel gw2 is nothing but a clustrf you really dont understand the system or played with others that do

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by supertouchme
    i'm going to make a bold prediction and say that conventional aggro mechanisms are the only thing that will work in an mmo. i imagine it would be a logistical nightmare to attempt to implement something else.

    That's the point.  One system is never the only system that will work, it's just what people are used to and comfortable with.  Every video game genre since Pong has mixed things up to make better games, MMOs can do it too.

    If you notice, almost all of the people who vote against the GW2 aggro system (on MMORPG anyway) either don't believe/know how it works or they just had bad dungeon experiences.  I really don't see what's wrong with variety in an industry that people complained was getting stale for nearly half a decade.  Not all games will adopt hybrid systems, there should be plenty of things to play for everyone.

    don't get me wrong. i'm not saying developers should stick to the status quo for the hell of it. i just think certain designs are limited by things like group dynamics.
     

    you can completely abandon aggro and any strategic planning and just adopt an every-man-for-himself approach, but i think that would defeat the purpose of group gameplay.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by loopback1199
    Why do people still play MMO's if all they want is a single player game? Once the roles are gone, there's no point to getting online anymore. Go back to your fallouts and skyrims and enjoy your non-trinity option, because that's all you've got when it's taken away.

    You miss the point. The trinity is a holdback from when MMO's were simple and the aggro/mob AI were also simple. Now that you can get a whole host of different AI's, the trinity breaks down because it DEPENDS on your tank keeping aggro some way - be shouts, taunts, etc. If you take that away the Trinity breaks down and is a waste of time.

     

    GW1 had the trinity but it was a little diversified - but still simple - you had to have a healer and a protect/condition removal. Still pretty simple and not much strategy needed to play.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon

    I played WoW with my bro until a couple of weeks back. I leveled a Monk to 90 and we were messing around with PvP. We basically leveled the entire way through BGs and dungeons (I think most people do something like this these days). I did not raid at all this time around but have raided a lot in the past.

     

    I have to say, I literally almost fell asleep while healing in dungeons in WoW. It was the easiest, most boring run of the mill experience I've had in a long time. I would start to zone out and my brother would ask me if I'm alright every once in a while. I think you just get to a point as a player where you are so used to the way things work that the predictability of the holy trinity is just... utterly boring.

     

    Could GW2 improve it's dungeon experience overall? Yeah, definitely. But this holy trinity stuff is really, really boring to me. I say improve the lack of trinity experience, not try and bring back a dull, easily predictable version of "group" gameplay.

  • VaelgardVaelgard Boston, MAPosts: 59Member Uncommon
    Ok.  So I noticed some people are hating on me liking WoW's raiding system and trinity.  You guys are constantly saying how easy WoW dungeons are (and you noticably do not raid current content).  Dungeons are SUPPOSED to be easy.  They are for entry level players looking for entry level loot so they can feel a sense of accomplishment.  Then, there is raiding, heroic raiding, and for the truly brave, the new challenge mode dungeons, which I have completed all on gold with a TON of dedication and effort.  If you think getting gold challenge modes is easy, then you are simply lying.  You have to play your defined role to absolute perfection, and there is no bigger rush in MMOs today!
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