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After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

    Which, for a game like with a name like "Warcraft" is just ludicrous, as in "man. that sounds like a terrific way to lose battles".

    Not much similarity to WC3, either :(

    Okay.

    I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Okay.

    I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

    Warcraft? Armies? Winning wars?

    Sending in the tanks to be surrounded and slaughtered by the enemy? Terrific strategy (not)?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by elocke
    Also, calling it a "trinity" anymore isn't technically correct.  How many games have 3 man parties(besides lotro's 3 man dungeons and WoW's scenarios)?  How many have classes that are pure support or hybrids or controllers?  Quite a lot.  One of the things I love about "trinity" gameplay is filling a role in a party and acting like a part of a machine.  FFXI is a great game to show how this is done.  You have a meat shield, a healer, a puller, some dps and support and all work together to pull off some awesome combat such as skill chains.  I have yet to feel that same synergy in an MMO since.  What with all the experimenting on removing trinity mechanics or adding self heals, etc.  they still haven't designed a group combat system that gels like FFXI did.  Not to say that newer MMOs aren't as fun or don't have their own pleasing combat aspect, but I think devs have gone in the wrong direction and are possibly blaming the wrong thing , such as "trinity" mechanics.

     The point of calling it a Holy Trinity is that those are the only 3 roles actually required. Buffers, debuffers and crowd control generally only make the content easier, but are not essential in most games. EQ1 and EQ2 used to have content that required full time crowd control, but have moved away from that design as people complained that they didn't like to be forced to take one. So now they are just buffers with second rate DPS.

    I can't think of a single game anymore where you would require a utility class to finish content. Quite a few where they are required for an optimal setup though.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

    Which, for a game like with a name like "Warcraft" is just ludicrous, as in "man. that sounds like a terrific way to lose battles".

    Not much similarity to WC3, either :(

    You could "tank" in Baldur's Gate only because the AI was poor and easily exploitable. What was thought as a weakness then someone made a whole mechanic out of it. These days, Bioware's RPGs have taunt in them ... And they are worse for it imo.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,622Member Uncommon

    I'm all for changing things when the new things are better than the old things. Change for the sake of being trendy without making any real improvement is just a confusing mess that's not worth the effort required to learn the new system.

    There are a lot of theoretical discussions about MMORPGs and their gameplay here that often don't translate into fun, intuitive gameplay. Ditching the trinity because it's old is one of those.

    Take the much maligned artificial "aggro" system that has been the norm and get rid of it. Fine. What you get then is that when a mob, or worse several "mobs" are just as likely to attack the player with 1/10th the ability to shrug-off attacks as another one, you end-up with chaotic kiting encounters. Some people enjoy that, I don't.

    To me RPGs are about evolving into a stronger player by learning and improving abilities... and then getting a chance to use thew new and improved abilities... "Running away" is not really one of those. I could do that at level1. I mean, it can spice things up as a minor part of a long encounter, but when the whole encounter is about running around in circles while the ones not currently being targetted follow behind beating on the mobs... well, it's just a comical mess. This is what. imho, GW2 dungeon runs are like more often than not.

    If that's the best they can come-up with as a "trinity-replacer," I'll pass and continue with the old until something actually better replaces it.

    And no, getting rid of classes so that everyone is just another tankohealer killer--same as the other 5 guys--is neither new nor an improvement. Hell if that's what it's going to be like, we might as well also get rid of the character creator and we can all also look like the same tanned, ambiguously asexual toon... wearing the one and only armor skin: that's just the visual equivalent of the game-play sameness those systems result in.

  • sea.shellsea.shell SelfossPosts: 63Member

    I didn't feel like the Trinity was gone in GW2. It maybe due to how i did run dungeons with my friends but we had:


    (Healers)
    1. The Water Elementalist
    2. The Guardian full of heals
    While as a Warrior with a shout build i could "heal" a bit it was more akin to a healing pot in other MMOs. But those two above actually really "healed". It's true in Gw2 even those two could not (but three could!) heal anyone standing in the wrong places, but you couldn't heal someone not walking out of the cleave range from a boss in example: Lotro either. (even tanks got one shooted).


    Tanking is and was always possible in gw2. What many don't know, the AI completly bugs out when you stack Thoughness gear. Get a Warrior or Guardian (or even thief) in full thoughness gear (including sockets) 2000+ thoughnes - next to a mob group (melee) and they will only chase him reliable.


    Most dungeon explorables are even poorly enough designed that you can go full berserker gear with the whole party and just nuke it. (But a good team could also rush nuke bosses in lotro / Wow / Tera / SWTOR without tank & dedicated healer).


    I do not argue that GW2 tried to be different and somewhat archieved that. However poor AI and poor class &dungeon design made ANet miss their goal.

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  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    Don't care what they want to say but taking away my main two classes that I play was fuckng stupid. Running around in a world of all DPS is pretty boring, chaotic and lacks any skill to play.
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Thorbrand
    Don't care what they want to say but taking away my main two classes that I play was fuckng stupid. Running around in a world of all DPS is pretty boring, chaotic and lacks any skill to play.

    i haven't been all dps in my 400 hours in gw2..

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  • david361107david361107 chattanooga, TNPosts: 279Member

    Didn't really know how bad it effected a game until GW2. DPS can't focus all their attention to DPS, same with tanks and whatever. The Holy T has been so popular over the years because it works and works well. It gives your character a purpose, be it DPS, healing or tanking, without everyone is just blaaaa, just like GW2..blaaa.

     

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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,622Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Thorbrand
    Don't care what they want to say but taking away my main two classes that I play was fuckng stupid. Running around in a world of all DPS is pretty boring, chaotic and lacks any skill to play.

    i haven't been all dps in my 400 hours in gw2..

    Are you a guardian? I am. I can be all that I can be...and then some.

    Playing an Elementalist and taking aggro in a dungeon...now that's a whole other evel of "fun" :) 

  • MightyChasmMightyChasm londonPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Okay.

    I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

    Warcraft? Armies? Winning wars?

    Sending in the tanks to be surrounded and slaughtered by the enemy? Terrific strategy (not)?

    Now I definately have no idea what you are talking about.  

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin

    I'm all for changing things when the new things are better than the old things. Change for the sake of being trendy without making any real improvement is just a confusing mess that's not worth the effort required to learn the new system.

    There are a lot of theoretical discussions about MMORPGs and their gameplay here that often don't translate into fun, intuitive gameplay. Ditching the trinity because it's old is one of those.

    Take the much maligned artificial "aggro" system that has been the norm and get rid of it. Fine. What you get then is that when a mob, or worse several "mobs" are just as likely to attack the player with 1/10th the ability to shrug-off attacks as another one, you end-up with chaotic kiting encounters. Some people enjoy that, I don't.

    To me RPGs are about evolving into a stronger player by learning and improving abilities... and then getting a chance to use thew new and improved abilities... "Running away" is not really one of those. I could do that at level1. I mean, it can spice things up as a minor part of a long encounter, but when the whole encounter is about running around in circles while the ones not currently being targetted follow behind beating on the mobs... well, it's just a comical mess. This is what. imho, GW2 dungeon runs are like more often than not.

    If that's the best they can come-up with as a "trinity-replacer," I'll pass and continue with the old until something actually better replaces it.

    And no, getting rid of classes so that everyone is just another tankohealer killer--same as the other 5 guys--is neither new nor an improvement. Hell if that's what it's going to be like, we might as well also get rid of the character creator and we can all also look like the same tanned, ambiguously asexual toon... wearing the one and only armor skin: that's just the visual equivalent of the game-play sameness those systems result in.

    *facepalm* Ofcourse you don't just pick out the abhorrent aggro system and leave everything the same. The game was designed around it, so it has to be redesigned without it.

    Also, combat in GW2 is not chaotic, its just different. If you don't see the patterns or can't make sense of the dynamics, it is your loss. It has roles, just different ones.

    Roles are not the same as classes, and roles exist even without classes. Its the game mechanics and objectives which dictate the roles. Exploiting aggro has lead to a tank role and it is the cornerstone of the holy trinity. Get rid of aggro manipulation and you break the holy trinity. You'll have something more interesting. But again, you need to design the game around it.

    All the alternatives might feel chaotic only because trinity, by comparison, is so formulaic and predictable; Its easy and boring. Nothing like real combat (although realism is not mandatory). It wouldn't be so bad if some developers wouldn't blatantly force a holy trinity in: such as into modern, sci-fi or space combat.

    It is ridiculous that a guy in a tanktop, wielding a sledge hammer "holds aggro" while I am firing an M-16 behind him - shooting through my "tank". And players/monsters do not die even when a whole clip has been emptied in their naked torso from a point blank range. Super human monsters? -Fine. Humans? -No.

    Anything to replace trinity in such case is better. I can't imagine a worse mechanic.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    The Trinity is a very simplistic system to deal with a very complex situation. In the middle ages, similar to many games, like GW2, there were knights, bowman, infantry, etc - where was the healer - there were no TANKS doing aggro control, etc. It is a very fictitious system that was created to be able to play. It also dumbs down the AI system for the mobs, since the TANKS have to keep aggro - healers do one thing - DPS just does that - simple and mind numbing.

    People, on this forum, keep saying they want more immersion and more 'REAL WORLD' but then they whine about no trinity? The trinity is less immersive - yes GW2 can be chaotic because real war is chaotic.

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  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member

    there's nothing complicated about "aggro" behavior in gw2. the amount of threat generated largely depends on your range and damage output.

    i'm having a hard time understanding why people dislike the trinity system. again, you pretty much need complementary roles in an mmo unless you want to kite mobs all day and fend for yourself.

    it seems like people want more realistic positional combat  but that kind of coordination isn't possible in an mmo.

  • EpicentEpicent Pierre Part, LAPosts: 647Member
    I feel like Guild Wars 2 is truly aimed at players with ALOT of skill with there dungeon system among other things. Personally I love the game. Perhaps some of the gripes stem from nonskilled players?
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    The Trinity is a very simplistic system to deal with a very complex situation. In the middle ages, similar to many games, like GW2, there were knights, bowman, infantry, etc - where was the healer - there were no TANKS doing aggro control, etc. It is a very fictitious system that was created to be able to play.

    The trinity is a very simplistic system. It also dumbs down the AI system for the mobs, since the TANKS have to keep aggro - healers do one thing - DPS just does that - simple and mind numbing.

    People, on this forum, keep saying they want more immersion and more 'REAL WORLD' but then they whine about no trinity? The trinity is less immersive - yes GW2 can be chaotic because real war is chaotic.

    But there is no reason why a "trinity" system couldn't be made that relied upon warriors blocking/protecting their allies while the squishier players shield themselves (taking themselves out of the equation) or moving to a better vantage point.

    I know some people say that games like D&D didn't have a trinity but they sort of did. It just didn't rely upon this whole "agrro/hate" mechanic.

    there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

    Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

    Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

     beyond easymode taunt, i find the oversimplification of 3 roles -- tank / dps / healer as being limited

     

    I miss the roles that everquest had for utility, crowd control, buffing / debuffing   (read: enchanter / bard )

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Epicent
    I feel like Guild Wars 2 is truly aimed at players with ALOT of skill with there dungeon system among other things. Personally I love the game. Perhaps some of the gripes stem from nonskilled players?

    I bet you think you are a better driver than everyone else too? Haha.

    But no seriously, I prefer the Rift group formula of 1 tank 1 heal 1 support 2 dps, even if support is dps half the time. Support roles are fun and necessary to a games health imo.

    But overall for me the lack of a trinity is a huge downfall, with no designated role the game becamse stale fast.

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  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    I didn't miss it. I don't think GW2 did a perfect job though either at keeping things balanced either.

    I'm convinced there is no good way to do it because balance is pretty much impossible no matter what way you design classes.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    I like the GW2 system that was developed around the idea of no defined role trinity. You can in fact play other games this way but a vast majority of the people I have played with do not. It seems like the trinity developed systems I've been in specialize heavely.  What I mean is you end up with a single class that is the "must have" tank with one or two builds that are the "must have" builds. If you try and stray outside of that you do not find many people that will play with you. So all the flexablity that has been designed into most games is tossed out the window. I think that the trinity has a profound influence on that. I only have an example of one which isn't proof but in GW2 without trinity roles typically (it does happen still) no one is asking for a defined role when forming a group or to see your build prior to invite. I think this allows the individual player greater flexabily. I am aware this is possble in other games it just isn't done for a majority of the player base.

    It's odd to see "well in GW2 everyone is just DPS"  which isn't the case. I would say that there are more DPS only players in a trinity game then there are in a  GW2 group. This is because in the typical trinity group of say of six, you need one tank, one healer and the rest can be and is desirable to be DPS.  In GW2 everyone should be providing more utility and it is pretty obvious when they don't, hence the old, rez zerg mechanic that was being employed. 

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    In Rift there many of the professions had roles that could be used in various Trinity roles - a Rogue could tank, an Ele could heal, etc. The problem is the PLAYERS, dumbed it down to 2-3 builds per profession, in dungeons, and that is all you could do. It was Trion thinking outside the box and players being so rigid, they won't change.

     

    I think that is one reason GW2, went farther, knowing that players would resort to their familar roles.

     

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    there was a reason they the toughter members were in front and the ranged/squishy members.

    Essentially, we are talking about roles, each person playing a role. I would agree that the whole "press a button and magically have all the enemies rush toward the tank" is horrid, but it doesn't have to be that way.

     beyond easymode taunt, i find the oversimplification of 3 roles -- tank / dps / healer as being limited

     

    I miss the roles that everquest had for utility, crowd control, buffing / debuffing   (read: enchanter / bard )

    That's great and I would agree tha tmakes it more interesting. But you still have roles such as the muscle, the healers/medics, the utility classes.

    What I'm not for is the full plate wearing, broadsword wielding, stealthy thief who also heals by the will of the gods whiel calling down meteors from the sky.

    I would agree that having "just three" types of players isn't very interesting but I would say that there are speciric roles that players can fill.

    Of course, I'm old fashioned and like the idea of the warriors, the healers the mages and the roges. I think some bleed through can be interesting but allowing everyone to be everything seems kind of a mush.

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 778Member Uncommon
    To be honest... yes. The trinity is more fun. Somehow, not having a role, to me personally, feels bland and unrewarding. Sure, you can use some skills and traits to better yourself to a specific style of play, but you'll never be needed for it, and the gameplay will more or less stay the same.
  • BrianshoBriansho Woodbridge, VAPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    It still baffles me seeing a healer/priest tank a mob that's 3-4 levels higher than him. They still wear cloth right?

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  • kragekrage Miami, FLPosts: 419Member

     

    The thing is there is a soft trinity in GW2, you can tank/heal and DPS in your group based on the scenario and aggro. 

    Aggro/Tanking

    Aggro is based on 

    • closest target to them
    • who is dealing damage
    • top damage dealers
    • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
    • who is rezzing, they usually take aggro on rezzing channel
    So you can tank if you keep these in mind, now tanking does not mean sit there and eat magic and blades to the face it means, kiting, LOS, and dodge rolling big attacks with smart cooldown management. 
     
    Healing
     
    Healing is more subtle in this game, and most classes should have heal/support abilities. 
     
    Example my engineer can drop med kits that can heal for 3k every 10 seconds or so, plus a cleanse, plus a crit/speed buff. Other classes can also do AOE field healing, cast party wide regen or other things. Not counting actively using my Combo blast rifle 5 ability in water fields for aoe heals...or other fields even for buffs/debuffs

    Now you may be thinking ah that doesnt count since the healing doesnt auto fill friendly life bars, but really the GW2 healing/support system is more about keeping players from dying than keeping them topped off like in traditional MMOs.

    This means clutch condition removals, giving that ally your heal when they need it most, or using a combo blast ability in a water field to do a decent sized AOE heal...not to mention more meaty defense/healing abilities (Guardian blocks/staff heals, warrior heal shouts/banners, necro well of Blood, etc..)

    The game is more subtle, and I think over time they can create truly challenging content that is based around proper CD management and team coordination than gear and statistics than popping the most efficient heals while monitoring HP bars in the party UI

     

    1st hand Example:

    I run a rifle engineer, I can knockback and net enemies to kite tank with my permenant swifness buff on kit swap. I get in close do as much damage as I can to draw aggro (DMG+Proximity) and then kite away if the boss is pummeling me...cant face tank in this game but doesnt mean there arent ways to "tank" or be primary target for boss.

    Heal utility: Med kit - Can drop kits to heal allies and remove conditions, about 3k+ every 10 seconds to allies if I only ran with that kit although swapping to and leaving them behind is ideal to support/dmg with other abilities.

    Utility 1: Changes based on needs of current fight although by default in dungeons I run with bomb kit for AOE slow, blinds, and dmg. On condition heavy fights I can take elixir gun for aoe heal and regen with cleansing, or any other kits I have that are best suited for the fight.

    Utility 2: Toolkit -For aoe slow caltrops, shield block, and magnetism pull in. This is when I cant get away from the boss with speed or dodge I can pop shield wall to wait for dodge to regen or speed away.

    Utility 3: Utility Googles-For my stunbreaker, blind immunity, and fury buff. I have traits that proc on crit so this even helps me and my allies by boosting my crit chance. On crit I have 50% chance to blind enemies for 5 seconds, 50% chance to apply vulnerabity, and 60% chance to remove enemy buffs.

    Elite: Supply Drop (Several turrets, including healing turret, and several medkits). This one I mainly use in aoe fights to stun enemies and/or drop on allies who need HP from med kits and healing turret.

     

    EDIT: Ah last thing I think ANET can improve on to make more players happy is make the support abilities more noticeable since most of the problems people have is wanting to be recognized and appreciated for their support efforts. IMO they could tune down the damage effects and beef up the support animation/effects...even my medkits mentioned above are fairly hard to see in a fight, but on skype/voips I usually tell people come to me for heals, or I try to drop them in their route.

    image
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