Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Item Decay is the bullet that must be bitten.

1246

Comments

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neherun

    The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

    Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

    Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BrianshoBriansho Woodbridge, VAPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    Completely controlled crafting economy run 100% by the players. Reminds me of Entropia Universe. If only I could get that game to run decent on my computer.

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,073Member Uncommon
    Re EVE. Its model of relying on trial churn and pvp deaths would not work in every mmo. But in a way it proves the point as its a type of item decay.
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Neherun

    The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

    Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

    Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

     

    An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

     

    Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

  • fs23otmfs23otm Winter Haven, FLPosts: 292Member Uncommon

    I think MMO's need to go back to the days of Twinking.

    When "soulbound" released it was a mechanism on FFAPVP loot servers to protect a few important items you had equipped from being dropped. Now it is used as a way to make you go get the loot yourself.

    I say go back to the early days of EQ around the time of Kunark. When the Fungi Tunic was the item to own, because you could use it on all your characters... there was very few soulbound items....no bind on equip....

    As for items breaking over time... I say no.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Neherun

    The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

    Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

    Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

    An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

    Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

    My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Neherun

    The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

    Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

    Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

    An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

    Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

    My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

     

     

    You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

     

    Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

     

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Neherun

    The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

    Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

    Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

    An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

    Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

    My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

    You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

    Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

    I'm not missing any point. Yes, orbs are used here, escrow was used in EVE and motes/keys were used in AC. In both AC and EVE, game mechanics were built to support how the players were bartering and doing transactions. The players created those systems to compensate for lack of game support for what they wanted/needed to do.

    Maybe I'm mistaken here, so fill me in - are there mechanics designed to support player-designated currency in PoE?  Not 'did players find a way to use orbs as currency' but 'are there mechanics designed to support player-designated currency in PoE'?

    If not, then 'no currency' wasn't a solution. It was a problem and the players found a solution, not to economy problems but to an absent feature problem.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon

    MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

    Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

    I consider crafting to be right up there with stamp collecting as a fun activity....hmm, I'm susrprised one of the WOW clones hasn't already required stamps as part of the in-game mail system...maybe the next clone...

    Item decay....no, thanks.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

    Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

    The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin

    MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

    Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

    The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

     Technically, you're correct. World of Ping-Pong is yeat another way...you could even craft your own decaying paddles. image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neherun
     

     

    You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

     

    Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

     

    But there is a reason that a "money" economy took the place of a "barter" economy.

    for one, you have to actually find someone who thinks that what you are trading has any value to them.

    Secondly, the  seller must  hope that someone is willing to trade with him something he wants/needs.

    Money economies are faster than barter economies. Not only that but you take the uncertainty out of the equation. If I use x amount of materials to make an object I will want x, y and z in return for that item. But if no one has those items or they don't have enough then I need to wait until someone does.

    That will take time. in the meantime I am sitting on an object I created with the idea of selling it. If I can't sell it then I don't have incentive to make another one.

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Neherun

    The most solution that actually works? No currencies! Good example of that is Path of Exile. The game has no currencies, but items players can use as currencies (no one told them to do that, actually): But players have actually made their own economy, and the "orbs" (items that can alter stats of items) have become the standard currency in the game, with well, elusive values. The game is now a massive field of bartering and trading, and it flourishes.

    Basically, you said the game lacks a desired feature. Players created a currency because they needed it and the game doesn't support it.

    Creating a situation where the players have to work against the design of the game to achieve basic goals isn't what most people would define as a solution.

    An important difference is that a regular currency is in itself useless, it is only when the regular currency is exchanged for items that they indirectly have an use. Orbs are useful per se, on the other hand.

    Futhermore, the community working together to create a community tool, is very much an achievement.

    My post wasn't to diminish their achievement, as it's a great one. We've seen the same awesome collaborative efforts in AC and EVE Online when the existing exchange system lacked features the players needed. It was to point out that they were doing so to compensate for a missing or inadequate feature of the game. The example is one of how lack of currency doesn't work.

     

     

    You're missing the point. Instead of having "gold" (or copper / silver / gold). You have no currency, so instead of using such a worthless currency that becomes inflated and essentially unvaluable at later date will be replaced by "Two wolf pelts for your sword!" "Three wolf pelts!". The orbs are pretty much a subtle hint from the developers "Don't have anything to bargain with, well, there are these orbs.."

     

    Its not lack of a feature or that currencies aren't supported. What is a currency anyways? Mass produced item that has pretty much imaginary value: Why would gold coins from wolf pelts be any different? This time around, players themselves decide whats valuable and what's not.  Ten times better system in comparison to flat out gold / money currency system. It suffers from no economical downfalls, and certainly won't reach recession at the end of  the launch year.

     

    One of the more interesting systems in this regard is AC. While there was a gold currency (called pyreals) and you could hold quite a few of them in insured cirtificates. it was not of much use.

     

    The economy revolved around rare drops like motes and rarer tapers and item drops. Bartering system.

     

    A currency that has not game function or very little (think Diablo 2) will end up with a barter system.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    I've been saying for years that if a developer isn't going to bother with a functional, challenging, but useful crafting system, then they shouldn't waste the resources on making a crafting system in the first place.

    If there aren't player dependencies, item decay, item loss, etc. then just don't make a crafting system. It's that simple. Make everying lootable and soulbound and put the money into other parts of the game to make them better. Stop making generic, unimportant game systems and just save the cash if you aren't going to bother making it an important part of the game.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin

    MMOs are about fighting the bad guys. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups of varying sizes, sometimes here and sometimes there...that's it

    Everything else... crafting, buying and selling, cooking, fishing, building and outfitting houses...those are just side activities that, at best, can support the "fighting the bad guys" part and at worst are just time-sinks to keep you from looking too closely at the defficiencies in the core gameplay.

    The EQ/WOW design is one way to build an MMO, not the only way.

     Technically, you're correct. World of Ping-Pong is yeat another way...you could even craft your own decaying paddles. image

    You really don't know that MMOs outside of the EQ/WOW formula exist? Really? Here are a few.

    • ATITD
    • Tales Runner
    • Project Powder
    • Crazy Kart
    • Free Realms
    • Gaia Online
    • IMVU
    • Muxlim
    • HKO
    • Furcadia
    • OnVerse
    • Red Light Center
    • Sociolotron
    • Garden Party World
    • vMTV
    • Kaneva
    • Second Life
    • There
    • Habbo Hotel

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by zekeofev

    One of the more interesting systems in this regard is AC. While there was a gold currency (called pyreals) and you could hold quite a few of them in insured cirtificates. it was not of much use.

    The economy revolved around rare drops like motes and rarer tapers and item drops. Bartering system.

    A currency that has not game function or very little (think Diablo 2) will end up with a barter system.

    The best part of what played out in AC is that the developers created content to support the emergent currency and how players chose to trade in the game.

    One example is the golem hearts. Players were using various tiers of treasure chest keys as currency, so the devs added craftable key rings so that players could store larger quantities of them in less space in their inventory.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Sijjistoryus
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Sijjistoryus
     

    It's one of the MAJOR reasons why players are finding more tumbleweeds instead of other players in games like SWTOR, AoC, WAR, [...]

    Do your homework and reform that statement.

    ?

    What kind of comment is that?

    It means your take on why aforementioned games failed is wrong. Economy is nowhere near the top faults in those games. Economy is not even a big crowd magnet.

    So do your homework, research the subject, before making a statement like that.

    The economy is the hidden backbone of a MMORPG. The economy is what keeps players interacting with other players. This "self-efficiency" trend is why modern MMOs feel so lifeless and stale.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,615Member Uncommon

    What a joke!!

    Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

    Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

    I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    What a joke!!

    Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

    Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

    I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

    Sometimes wanting is better than having.

  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    What a joke!!

    Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

    Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

    I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

    And that is why we keep getting the formulaic games we keep getting.  Stick to the tried and true and don't deviate much.  This year and next year I think we'll see whether deviation works or not.

    I'd be ok with item loss, decay is just annoying. 

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

    Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!


    "Same people"? People, more than one? Same, the identical guys?

    Do tell.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by bliss14
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    What a joke!!

    Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

    Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!

    I seriously think MMO's have no future now.  If I was a developer I would have no idea what game to make!!  :(

    And that is why we keep getting the formulaic games we keep getting.  Stick to the tried and true and don't deviate much.  This year and next year I think we'll see whether deviation works or not.

    I'd be ok with item loss, decay is just annoying. 

    Honestly it's more: "OH WE WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT!" then five months later it's "OH THIS IS TOO DIFFERENT! WHY ISN'T IT MORE LIKE THE GOOD OLD STUFF!"

    MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY!

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Half the time you hear people complaining..."we want a sandbox, we want a sandbox!! " 

    Then those same people come back and say "crafting sucks, all I want to do is kill stuff and loot epic gear!!


    "Same people"? People, more than one? Same, the identical guys?

    Do tell.

    I don't think it's the EXACT same guys, but there definitely is a feeling of two things being said at the same time. There is asking for innovation, yet at the same time they also ask for a reskin of whatever game they feel is best, and the general group of people who ask for these things tend to be part of the same crowd, at least based on my observation.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Yakkin
    the general group of people who ask for these things tend to be part of the same crowd, at least based on my observation.

    So...people whose motivations you believe you know.

    Easier to just ask 'em, rather than shout them down.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 771Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

    Item decay solves nothing.

    With item decay you constantly farm to remake equipment before it eventually is destroyed.

    Without item decay you constantly farm to make new different equipment entirely.

     

    The only difference is without item decay, at the very least the equipment you farmed hard for will always be there. In the end, they both lead to the same issue. The economy is a lot larger than this one problem, and frankly you're all looking at the problem from the incorrect perspective in the first place. Crafters will always be left on the outside as long as there are things like raid gear or equipment dropped from monsters that are better or equal to what can be crafted. I know you guys think crafting is some great thing, but the reality is that you are all in the minority. Crafting is not a big thing to players by and large, what is important is getting stronger, and if you give players an easier way to get stronger than crafting, they are going to take it. Period.

    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    Everyone listen to this guy. It's like somone said earlier in this thread, I believe: if the game sort of revolved around crafting, it would be fine. Instead of having gear drop in dungeons, you should be fighting for crafting materials, and then you can either use those materials yourself if you like to craft, or if not, pay someone else who crafts to make gear for you with it.

    Crafting seems to be generally added as an afterthought with no regards to the other systems in place. For crafting to be useful, the game needs to be built from the ground up with crafting in mind, and all the other systems need to support it in some way.

    But as is also said, no developers are going to try this route (at least not AAA) because the people who truly enjoy crafting in MMO's are definitely in the minority. Most people just wanna kill stuff/do quests and get stronger by doing it.

Sign In or Register to comment.