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Do I really need to be leet?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Merilirem.
    Just because 99% of the games we play are combat, it doesn't mean we want to do it. The game I would play is one where we get so lost in the world we forget all the stats and guides.

    Who are "we"? I get that you may not want to do it .. but the market certainly like combat. It is not like there are no alternatives .. but combat heavy game is big sellers (do you really need me to tell you?)

    And while you want to forget stats and guides, stats and guides are very popular. There are people who spend day & night theorycrafting game mechanics. We are talking about minute details like people will test proc coefficients in Diablo 3, and know exactly how many ticks a DOT will go off for what value of attack speed. Ditto in games like WOW where there is optimization software to help you pick gear, and do gods know what.

    And to many (including me) .. that is fun. When i consider buying a piece of gear in D3, i will have the ranges of random stats in front of me, so i will know if this particular one has a good draw or not .. and hence if i get my money worth. I also run them through DPS and EPH (effect health) calculators.This kind of meta-game is a big part of the fun for me.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Port AugustaPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Merilirem.
    Just because 99% of the games we play are combat, it doesn't mean we want to do it. The game I would play is one where we get so lost in the world we forget all the stats and guides.

    Who are "we"? I get that you may not want to do it .. but the market certainly like combat. It is not like there are no alternatives .. but combat heavy game is big sellers (do you really need me to tell you?)

    And while you want to forget stats and guides, stats and guides are very popular. There are people who spend day & night theorycrafting game mechanics. We are talking about minute details like people will test proc coefficients in Diablo 3, and know exactly how many ticks a DOT will go off for what value of attack speed. Ditto in games like WOW where there is optimization software to help you pick gear, and do gods know what.

    And to many (including me) .. that is fun. When i consider buying a piece of gear in D3, i will have the ranges of random stats in front of me, so i will know if this particular one has a good draw or not .. and hence if i get my money worth. I also run them through DPS and EPH (effect health) calculators.This kind of meta-game is a big part of the fun for me.

    I'm not trying to say your games are bad, they are just different to what I and others would like. Personally I will always go into heavy combat sitauations. I just don't like that we have no choice, no other way to spend our virtual lives that isn't just some silly distraction which means nothing. When I say WE I'm not really talking about anyone, it's more of a general we the players comment. Alot  of the time whether it's games or any aspect of our existence, people will be unable to tell if they would enjoy something without trying it. Many will find something they never thought of as fun to be the best path for them. Without the ability to try new things, how can anyone be sure of anything? Is a game which caters to all kinds of players at once really such an impossible notion to you?

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Merilirem
     

    I'm not trying to say your games are bad, they are just different to what I and others would like. Personally I will always go into heavy combat sitauations. I just don't like that we have no choice, no other way to spend our virtual lives that isn't just some silly distraction which means nothing. When I say WE I'm not really talking about anyone, it's more of a general we the players comment. Alot  of the time whether it's games or any aspect of our existence, people will be unable to tell if they would enjoy something without trying it. Many will find something they never thought of as fun to be the best path for them. Without the ability to try new things, how can anyone be sure of anything? Is a game which caters to all kinds of players at once really such an impossible notion to you?

    It is fair as long as you acknowledge you are not talking about everyone.

    And to the point "Without the ability to try new things, how can anyone be sure of anything?" .. there are plenty of other games. SIngalong, dancing, sports .... you named it. The fact that combat centric games outsell all of them tell you something.

    Heck, you can even play a house decorator in SIMS. And that games sold millions. So the point is this .. people have choices, and they have tried all sort of different games, but in the end, combat and violence sells .. and that is whay a large portion (but not all) of the market is focused on that.

    Supply and demand, it is that simple.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Not necessarily. Dealing with other players take time and energy. If the 9900 players just want to focus on fighting and progression, it is easier to get better items from drops and trading on AH, then spending time negotiating with real players.

    Plus, it is a matter of resource allocation. To make a good blacksmithing system to please those 100 players, how much do you have to spend? Certainly spending just 1% of the resources probably won't be doing a very good job. Can a dev justify spending a significanat amount when only 1% is enjoying the system?

     

    I think we are having that nonsensical numbers argument again...

    There are far more people interested in non combat things than 1%

    Moreover you actually need those people, even if you think you dont, from the guys that write guides and test every system trough the powergamers like say kripp or athene in d3 that are predominantly goal oriented (beating the game, finding the perfect build) to the overt(h)inkers that will bash your game whenever and wherever for being too simple and too shallow.

    That is the thing that makes the difference between a free lineage2 based stock mmo (i have seen far too many lately, like Shaiya or Aika) that gets hailed as "the best free mmo of the year" and a real product that lasts for more than few months and with more than 2k players.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • MeriliremMerilirem Port AugustaPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Merilirem
     

    I'm not trying to say your games are bad, they are just different to what I and others would like. Personally I will always go into heavy combat sitauations. I just don't like that we have no choice, no other way to spend our virtual lives that isn't just some silly distraction which means nothing. When I say WE I'm not really talking about anyone, it's more of a general we the players comment. Alot  of the time whether it's games or any aspect of our existence, people will be unable to tell if they would enjoy something without trying it. Many will find something they never thought of as fun to be the best path for them. Without the ability to try new things, how can anyone be sure of anything? Is a game which caters to all kinds of players at once really such an impossible notion to you?

    It is fair as long as you acknowledge you are not talking about everyone.

    And to the point "Without the ability to try new things, how can anyone be sure of anything?" .. there are plenty of other games. SIngalong, dancing, sports .... you named it. The fact that combat centric games outsell all of them tell you something.

    Heck, you can even play a house decorator in SIMS. And that games sold millions. So the point is this .. people have choices, and they have tried all sort of different games, but in the end, combat and violence sells .. and that is whay a large portion (but not all) of the market is focused on that.

    Supply and demand, it is that simple.

    2 points

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting. Nothing wrong with specialization, some just find it a little simple and shallow.

    2, alot of the pure games are below my personally level of approval anyway, not as a game but as a pure game. This isn't really the p to start that discussion though. Btw shallow isn't a bad thing, classic Mario is awesome.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Merilirem

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting.

    Kinda like how having 300 Online or Footloose Online is a whole different experience from West Side Story Online. Yeah, you can have a decent soundtrack in 3-O or play chicken with tractors in FLO, but does it really compare to being able to choose within the same game between a knife fight and singing about Maria?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MeriliremMerilirem Port AugustaPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Merilirem

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting.

    Kinda like how having 300 Online or Footloose Online is a whole different experience from West Side Story Online. Yeah, you can have a decent soundtrack in 3-O or play chicken with tractors in FLO, but does it really compare to being able to choose within the same game between a knife fight and singing about Maria?

     

    More than anything it is about enjoying a realistic experience. Following a story as a character someone else made or enjoying yourself while you rip through repeating notions and battles is fine, but they are only aspects of what gaming can be. Gaming is not just frivolous or something to relax with, nor is it something that needs to be difficult. Games are a natural part of life for many, they can allow us to learn and grow as we play. Just as a kitten plays to sharpen its hunting skills so can we stimulate our natures through play. Allowing growth through virtual experience in a mentally interesting world is far more enjoyable than playing to pass time. The difference between thinking about a movie and simply seeing it. Adding 1 or 2 new aspects is a good start on our journey to make a truly emmersive experience but it should not be the end.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • xpowderxxpowderx Radcliff, KYPosts: 2,131Member Uncommon
    Man, I miss Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu >.<
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

  • CothorCothor Houston, TXPosts: 163Member Uncommon

    I remember back in UO, around 1999/2000 I would be in Britain and go over to the Smith in the northern part of the city. There would be 5-10 player smiths there at any given time. I always looked up to them, and when I saw the title of Grandmaster, I was super impressed. So impressed that I soon made a smith and it became my favorite character.

    Back then, being a smith meant something. You repaired peoples armor, you made them armor, and if you had a consistant customer with which you became friends with, you could cut them deals or set up new types of trade with them.

    I also recall a player who would sit by the Britain Bank, off to the side in the grass, and she would sell vegetables for hours at a time every single day, thats all she would do. An epic role player, easily the most devoted and hardcore I had ever seen. I always bought from her as I had no nightmare at the time (I had to feed my mount), and I would give her 100x what the vegetables were worth for her efforts. I never broke character, I just gave her the money that she deserved.

     

    Yes, OP, I agree with you. It takes all types to make the MMORPG not just good, but amazing. To see a bard playing tunes in the streets of a city who is simply playing music, drinking ale, and taking tips... and even telling a joke from time to time, I would kill to see that.

     

    We must demand change. When we log in, it should be a true simulation with true freedom. Someday... no more than 10 more years, someone will figure it out. My hopes are that I am not too old, too blind, or too deaf to enjoy it for a few hard, solid years.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Merilirem

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting.

    Kinda like how having 300 Online or Footloose Online is a whole different experience from West Side Story Online. Yeah, you can have a decent soundtrack in 3-O or play chicken with tractors in FLO, but does it really compare to being able to choose within the same game between a knife fight and singing about Maria?

    West Side Story Online!  That just made my day :)

     

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • BrianshoBriansho Woodbridge, VAPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    You can be leet if you keep playing a game for a long time, eventually you'll be leet just like everyone else.

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

    Yes, because we are all rational and have perfect information...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

    Yes, because we are all rational and have perfect information...

    Flame on!

    :)

    No, because some of us are rational, and those have better information and act on ... have better success in business.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon

    DRAGON: i the dragon will eat you all and all humaniteh!!!! YAR!!!!!!

    BARD: hey buddy lemme sing you a song about friendship with my flute bro, and here some skooma, it will relaaaax yo mind

    DRAGON:....????......... :/ ........ ^.^    bff <3

    ...............

    i want my combat please. thanks.

    image
  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

    Yes, because we are all rational and have perfect information...

    Flame on!

    :)

    No, because some of us are rational, and those have better information and act on ... have better success in business.

    Only if you can distinguish cynicism from rationality, which is not so clear and does not happen that often.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
     

    Only if you can distinguish cynicism from rationality, which is not so clear and does not happen that often.

    Flame on!

    :)

    Are you going to quote art of war next?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    Mentor/sidekick systems never disappeared. They were introduced about seven or eight years ago and have been around ever since in games where that mechanic fits.


    As for 'good ideas' that were dropped being nonsense: If these devs are as greedy as you and others say, why would they forego adding content that would bring in more players?

     

    They more than likely weren't all as universally enjoyed as you might want to think.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,295Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

    difficulty is not the same as interesting though, and its easy to confuse something being challenging, with it being 'complicated, or difficult'  its not even about whether something is easy to do, lots of things are easy to do, and they are also fun, again, making something difficult is not going to improve gameplay as such, making the gameplay more varied and challenging however, might just make it a bit more fun. image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

    difficulty is not the same as interesting though, and its easy to confuse something being challenging, with it being 'complicated, or difficult'  its not even about whether something is easy to do, lots of things are easy to do, and they are also fun, again, making something difficult is not going to improve gameplay as such, making the gameplay more varied and challenging however, might just make it a bit more fun. image

    I don't disagree. Challenge designed ONLY in the right way is fun. Otherwise, games can be easily made intellectually challengin by putting in an NP hard, large scale, randomly generated optimization problem.

    But the point is difficulty options help.

    Easy is also not necessarily boring .. but the examples i quote are .. to me. And i also want to dispute the illusion that old MMOs are more difficult. In fact, much of the gameplay is easy and boring, compared to modern day games. In fact, optimizing DPS/build/gear is much more in-depth today, than in the EQ days. Today, theorycrafting requires math like stochastic modeling.

     

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