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After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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  • MibletMiblet Member Posts: 333
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         I hate the holdy trinity.. You end up with a 3 class game..  DPS, Tank and Heals....... I want to see something similar to the original EQ..  I want to see more roles and hybrids, but that isnt' going to happen unless you throw "PvP" and "Raid" balance out the window..  I want a PURE PvE game with a variety of classes to play.. The more the better :)

    +1

    After all my time playing MMO games I'm not even sure if pvp and pve can exist in the same game and garner huge praise from both crowds.

    If it focuses on PvP, the PvE crowd have their fun ruined by people in need of ego massaging and leave.

    If it focuses on PvE, the PvP crowd scream and moan about how they should be allowed to kill people whenever they want.

    If it tries to blend both then neither side is happy as the compromises harm the game's potential.

    I'd rather the developers pick PvE or PvP and stick with it. However, the chasing of WoW level subscriber figures will continue, as they seem unwilling to develop a niche corner of the market, when they could be trying to out-WoW WoW!

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by tixylix
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by tixylix

    I never saw a problem with how WoW did it, with talents you could play many roles. I mean as a Druid I could play Tank, Damage dealer or a healer and yet the trinity still existed because you couldn't do it all at the same time. As a priest I could be a healer or a damage dealer and every class had at least two roles. It's the best class system out of any MMO I've played which uses one.

    Sadly though WoW got turned to shit.

    Well, just out of curiosity, which 2 roles were available to rogues, locks and qqers err, mages ?

    But i agree with the last sentence, even if we would probably disagree on the exact point in time.

    Flame on!

    :)

    For me it was when they made it so you can warp to Battlegrounds, it killed world PVP.

    Yes, we disagree :)

    But how about the 2 roles for pures?

    Flame on!

    :)

  • jadiusmaxjadiusmax Member UncommonPosts: 31
    It seems like people muddle up the issue.  Question should be do you like trinity concept, not the trinity implementation in such and such game.  Two totally different things.
  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335
    Originally posted by aSynchro

    Lets check where the Trinity is useful:

    _ Leveling : NO. Why level as tank or healer when you can just dps all the way to end game ? Only useful for shorter dungeon queue.

    _ Quest: NO. Have you try to do WoW dailies as a healer ? Ah ah!

    _ PvP: NO. Tank can't tank players, so it's only a dps with more health but half the damage. As for Healers, well a battleground with zero healers or with same amount of healers in both team don't really change the whole deal.

    _ Dungeon : Not really. At first maybe, but with good gear/cc or skilled players you can do it without healer or without tank.

    _ Raids: YES/Maybe. For classic tank&spank fights. But you can imagine lots of fights that would works without tanks and healers. Just replace non-avoidable damages with avoidable-if-you-move-fast-enought damages and here you are.

    In fact, check WoW raids : lots of encounters don't really need the Trinity. Alysrazor in Fireland has fixed aggro mechanism; same for Garalon in Heart of Fear. Ultraxion in DS only need people to press button at the good time, and what about the vehicule fights in Ulduar, the gunship in Icecrown, the Sha in the last Terrace raid etc etc. Usualy tanks have a very small role. As for healers, they are only usefull because there are non-avoidable damages.

     

    I'd also like to point that trinity prevents players from being together.  What do you prefer to hear :

    Ultima Online, EVE, Guild Wars 2: "hey, sure: join us and lets have fun together!"

    or :

    Trinity based MMORPG: "mmh, sorry: we only need a tank/healer now..."

    ?

    All that is changing now though, what with dual spec or Rift's soul system where you can change to what is needed when you need it.  Trinity mechanics don't have to hinder a game anymore as long as devs put in a system where you can change what your role is on the fly.  Didn't have any issue getting groups in Rift or GW2, but I do in WoW or EQ/EQ2 when playing pure dps classes.

  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335
    Also, calling it a "trinity" anymore isn't technically correct.  How many games have 3 man parties(besides lotro's 3 man dungeons and WoW's scenarios)?  How many have classes that are pure support or hybrids or controllers?  Quite a lot.  One of the things I love about "trinity" gameplay is filling a role in a party and acting like a part of a machine.  FFXI is a great game to show how this is done.  You have a meat shield, a healer, a puller, some dps and support and all work together to pull off some awesome combat such as skill chains.  I have yet to feel that same synergy in an MMO since.  What with all the experimenting on removing trinity mechanics or adding self heals, etc.  they still haven't designed a group combat system that gels like FFXI did.  Not to say that newer MMOs aren't as fun or don't have their own pleasing combat aspect, but I think devs have gone in the wrong direction and are possibly blaming the wrong thing , such as "trinity" mechanics.
  • CylintCylint Member UncommonPosts: 18

    Loved GW2 system.  But I loved Rift's much more.  I don't like being locked into a role that is only good in a group centric sense. I liked being able to switch, out of combat, to one of several roles I had built for my character. Rift did it right.

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950

    There's trinity and then there's trinity. The difference that affects my enjoyment the most is mob AI and agro mechanics.

    WoW gets pretty stale with taunts and high agro generating AOE skills on every tank type. It was kinda fun in TBC when you still had to pay attention to threat meters as DPS and use your agro dumps when needed, but it's at the point now where I hadn't had a threat meter installed in forever when I last played.

    DDO does it differently. It's been a long time since I played that one, but the mobs seemed a lot smarter there.  Kobolds right in front of the tank aren't going to turn and run past him because they'll get stabbed in the back, other kobolds will run past that pile and try to get to the squishies in the back. This requires players to know their shit. Tanks gotta be in front and block what they can, squishies have to be in the back and throw out stuff like web or sleep to slow and stop the free mobs and rogues and the like hang out in between when needed to intercept and kill the mobs going after your squishies. 

    Both of these cases have the trinity, but the way the developers chose to work it into the game is vastly different.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls Member Posts: 2,951

    Not entirely. I do not want to be waiting in a queue because there are too many healers and tanks and not enough dps or vice versa I've been there done that in the past. That is not the future of mmo's if people think that then build a time machine and keep yourself frozen in 1999. 

    I'm seeing a little bit of trinity in Neverwinter however, the way they did their system seems to me to be more like STO in that you can have all healer types and still get thru things just fine. It's awesome actually. They didn't put limitations on the scale of abilities. Now how this will effect pvp I'm not sure but we'll see.

    I think tho that having healers that can do decent damage and having tanks that do decent damage is a reflection on how Arenanet has influenced the gaming industry and we'll be seeing many many more like it in the future if these developers wish to keep these limitations from affecting the queue times for dungeons if they wish to keep the dungeon system.

  • supertouchmesupertouchme Member Posts: 68

    gw2's system doesn't make sense when you have several people trying to focus on common enemies. you can defend the game's design all you want, but combat is generally disorganized and not very fun.

    classes exist to complement to one another. everquest had a great class system. you had tanks, hybrids that could tank and maybe do a little dps and heal, healers that could debuff, and you had utility classes. to this day, the bard remains one of my favorite classes of all time.

  • WarlyxWarlyx Member EpicPosts: 3,361
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Dedicated tanks with hate and aggro mechanics can go the way of the dodo (rift, wow, lotro, eq2 style tank mechanics).  I like healing roles, but I don't like snap aggro/tank mechanics. Support, control, buff, debuff, healing, and damage dealing (st, aoe, dot) all make for more interesting combat.

    "passive tanking" isnt that fun....wow added some "active tanking"

     

    but if u guys played tera or even skyrim (same system) 2nd button of the mouse to block! thats where the fun is!

     

    @ eq : the problem in eq was that War , were the tanks on endgame , pallys and SK couldn event dream about tanking anything ....

    same goes for heals, druid and shammys were usefull (debuffs/buffs) but couldnt heal the same way CLE did

     

    in eq2 that was fixed, all the healers work different , Clerics reactive heals ,Shaman wards and druid hots.

    in the tanking eq2 is meh , guardians were the best in vanilla, now? monks outank everything lol

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by supertouchme

    gw2's system doesn't make sense when you have several people trying to focus on common enemies. you can defend the game's design all you want, but combat is generally disorganized and not very fun.

    classes exist to complement to one another. everquest had a great class system. you had tanks, hybrids that could tank and maybe do a little dps and heal, healers that could debuff, and you had utility classes. to this day, the bard remains one of my favorite classes of all time.

    GW2's make perfect sense. Just not if you're trying to treat it like a traditional trinity based game (i.e. tanks keep the mob 'taunt'ed, healers sit back and spam heals, dps sit back and spam rotations). It's much more active than that.

    As for aggro, I have a post (i think it's on page 10 of this thread) explaining in detail how the aggro works in GW2. It's amazing how many people still don't know how the game fundamentally operates on certain things. The combat only gets chaotic when you have 5 glass cannons trying to all take on a boss. There is room for more tank-like roles (guardian, elementalist, necro, warrior), just as there are roles for more damage oriented players (warrior, thief, ele, necro, etc. etc.), and roles for more support oriented players (guardian, ele, engineer, mesmer, necro).

    Furthermore, more knowledgeable groups know these things, and run dungeons accordingly. Heck, some of the smoothest runs I've ever had were with a guardian up front taking most of the damage & healing, warriros alongside him doing most of the damage, and an ele / mesmer in the back supporting them with heals, utility, cc, and damage.

    - It's when players try and go into a fight w/ full berserker gear, and just unload on an enemy expecting the enemy to not react, when things go badly.

    The system works, but not if you ignore it completely.

  • mattidoremattidore Member Posts: 31
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Yes i definitely like to have a specific role. GW2's praised "no trinity, everyone's welcome" thing just turned into "4 warriors + mesmer" fast runs just a few months past release. The rest of people, with a few exceptions, are just considered sub-par. Rift's class system is perfect, too bad the game is WoW-like at endgame (not enough open world content)

    Wait so you're telling me that there's a difference between people finding out the most efficient way of running a dungeon and the holy trinity???

    Also fyi

    1. 3 warriors and 2 mesmers is a better combo than 4/1

    2. The warrior/mes combo is only used in 1 path of 1 dungeon .

    3. Every other path of every other dungeon you can have any class combination 

    4. It's possible to run cof p1 (the war/mes group combo you mention) with any other class combination. It's just fastest with only warriors and mesmers, that's why they're called speed runs...

     

     Please stop spreading disinformation

  • ForeverdreamForeverdream Member UncommonPosts: 141
    Originally posted by FelixMajor
    There has to be a happy medium between having freedom in character building and team play imo.  Gw2 is fun, but in group play you just feel like you are all trying to dish out as much dps as possible.  In a trinity system, it gets stale fast doing the same thing over and over, but you also get that pride in being good in your role...there has to be a point where those two systems can compliment each other, that would be nice to see

    already been done, age of conan 2008

  • danielduendedanielduende Member Posts: 2
    Originally posted by Foreverdream
    Originally posted by FelixMajor
    There has to be a happy medium between having freedom in character building and team play imo.  Gw2 is fun, but in group play you just feel like you are all trying to dish out as much dps as possible.  In a trinity system, it gets stale fast doing the same thing over and over, but you also get that pride in being good in your role...there has to be a point where those two systems can compliment each other, that would be nice to see

    already been done, age of conan 2008

    ^^ that.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290

    I was never a fan of holy trinity. I'm also not a fan of free for all combat as in GW2. I prefer EQ's method. Tanks, Healers, DPS, Buffers, Debuffers, Pullers. 

    Make more group roles, not less. 

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825
    Multiple roles means complexity, we don't want complexity, we want dumb ass mechanics that a four year old could understand. For that matter nothing in the MMO should be beyond the wit of a four year old. Let's widen that demographic guys!
  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    Both have their own charm. The real answer is:

    Depends on the game.

     

    It works for GW2, it probably wouldnt work for other games. I can have fun in both types. If I had to pick one or the other I would go with the hybrid system however, as I like that everyone has to work as a team and contribute, rather than relying on two or maybe three roles (tank, healer and sometimes utility like bards or enchanters).

    I appreciate that a lot of players like the clutch of having these roles though, which is fine, the point of gaming is fun and not everyone wants the same level of challenge.

    Which is why a diversity of types is always going to be better than making all games this or all games that.

  • CothorCothor Member UncommonPosts: 174
    If only GW2 had end game content that was long lasting and meaningful... Then we would know for sure if the Trinity is better. However, at this time... once you have been 80 for about 2 weeks, you are all tapped out. Nothing you do matters or has any impact on anything. Its just too hard to say if I want it back. I do miss being a cleric and people begging me to run dungeons with them and giving me priority on certain things. With the trinity, if you role a cleric or a tank, you never have to wait for groups and everyone kisses your ass, so that is a plus.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085

    I dont really care if a roleplaying game is trinity or not.

    But a RPG should have challenge.

    And even if a game doesnt explicitly have the trinity, there are always characters that are more resilient than others, and characters that are rather fragile. Thus the sturdier will always try to protect the fragile ones, if they can. Even if there is no aggro mechanism, you often can do that, for example by getting spotted first.

    And healing spells, well you can make everybody their own healer, obviously. For example, Diablo 2 did that long ago with healing potions.

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

    Which, for a game like with a name like "Warcraft" is just ludicrous, as in "man. that sounds like a terrific way to lose battles".

    Not much similarity to WC3, either :(

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

    Which, for a game like with a name like "Warcraft" is just ludicrous, as in "man. that sounds like a terrific way to lose battles".

    Not much similarity to WC3, either :(

    Okay.

    I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Okay.

    I have no idea whatsoever what the frak you are talking about.

    Warcraft? Armies? Winning wars?

    Sending in the tanks to be surrounded and slaughtered by the enemy? Terrific strategy (not)?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    Originally posted by elocke
    Also, calling it a "trinity" anymore isn't technically correct.  How many games have 3 man parties(besides lotro's 3 man dungeons and WoW's scenarios)?  How many have classes that are pure support or hybrids or controllers?  Quite a lot.  One of the things I love about "trinity" gameplay is filling a role in a party and acting like a part of a machine.  FFXI is a great game to show how this is done.  You have a meat shield, a healer, a puller, some dps and support and all work together to pull off some awesome combat such as skill chains.  I have yet to feel that same synergy in an MMO since.  What with all the experimenting on removing trinity mechanics or adding self heals, etc.  they still haven't designed a group combat system that gels like FFXI did.  Not to say that newer MMOs aren't as fun or don't have their own pleasing combat aspect, but I think devs have gone in the wrong direction and are possibly blaming the wrong thing , such as "trinity" mechanics.

     The point of calling it a Holy Trinity is that those are the only 3 roles actually required. Buffers, debuffers and crowd control generally only make the content easier, but are not essential in most games. EQ1 and EQ2 used to have content that required full time crowd control, but have moved away from that design as people complained that they didn't like to be forced to take one. So now they are just buffers with second rate DPS.

    I can't think of a single game anymore where you would require a utility class to finish content. Quite a few where they are required for an optimal setup though.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Baldurs Gate didnt have the trinity, and yet its gameplay was already a lot like MMOs: send the tanks in first so they gain aggro, then keep healing them with your healers.

    Which, for a game like with a name like "Warcraft" is just ludicrous, as in "man. that sounds like a terrific way to lose battles".

    Not much similarity to WC3, either :(

    You could "tank" in Baldur's Gate only because the AI was poor and easily exploitable. What was thought as a weakness then someone made a whole mechanic out of it. These days, Bioware's RPGs have taunt in them ... And they are worse for it imo.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719

    I'm all for changing things when the new things are better than the old things. Change for the sake of being trendy without making any real improvement is just a confusing mess that's not worth the effort required to learn the new system.

    There are a lot of theoretical discussions about MMORPGs and their gameplay here that often don't translate into fun, intuitive gameplay. Ditching the trinity because it's old is one of those.

    Take the much maligned artificial "aggro" system that has been the norm and get rid of it. Fine. What you get then is that when a mob, or worse several "mobs" are just as likely to attack the player with 1/10th the ability to shrug-off attacks as another one, you end-up with chaotic kiting encounters. Some people enjoy that, I don't.

    To me RPGs are about evolving into a stronger player by learning and improving abilities... and then getting a chance to use thew new and improved abilities... "Running away" is not really one of those. I could do that at level1. I mean, it can spice things up as a minor part of a long encounter, but when the whole encounter is about running around in circles while the ones not currently being targetted follow behind beating on the mobs... well, it's just a comical mess. This is what. imho, GW2 dungeon runs are like more often than not.

    If that's the best they can come-up with as a "trinity-replacer," I'll pass and continue with the old until something actually better replaces it.

    And no, getting rid of classes so that everyone is just another tankohealer killer--same as the other 5 guys--is neither new nor an improvement. Hell if that's what it's going to be like, we might as well also get rid of the character creator and we can all also look like the same tanned, ambiguously asexual toon... wearing the one and only armor skin: that's just the visual equivalent of the game-play sameness those systems result in.

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