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Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Isane The alternatives exist Developers are just ignoring them; Exponential Leveling Gameplay and Community are the answers. But sadly easy mode clone with no real depth seem to be all the rage for the dumbed down masses.
Exponential leveling gameplay just hides the problem (and it's an archaic idea from the 80s). Assuming that we want to keep a cap, for the orignal "we want a cap" reasons, you haven't fixed capped-and-bored yet.
Community is a beginning, middle, and end game, not something that gives capped players something to do for boredom relief. (I agree that for an individual player, people can be more entertaining than more content; but only if you're a fairly sociable person--not a universal idea).
Next? Do keep them coming, there's money in this for us, if we come up with something workable.
EQ already does it with their amazing AA system. They could do better by offering just as much solo and small group questing and dungeons for end game just like they do for the rest of the game. It is a viable option, even if it requires more effort. God knows, they make enough money to justify it, if they weren't so damn greedy and lazy. Another option is making gathering and crafting more viable at end game, that doesn't require components from raids. Then there are alternatives like Vanguard's diplomacy. They could add in real player political systems. They could also add PvE content that helps drive the needed resources for PvP content in the same vein as DAoC for the building and repair of keeps and defenses. Player creation tools like the Foundry. How about more tools for roleplaying? How about a more serious integration of housing into the game world and making them part of the gaming experience by having random NPC's show up at your door with quests or the occasional dynamic event where the neighborhood catches on fire or is invaded by the local orc tribe? Where are the trade caravans where you can be hired on as guards? I'm not even a smart person with experience in content design and I can see the endless potential that none of the development houses seem to want to even investigate, let alone embrace for high end content.
They're the paid professionals, if they can't be bothered to even try, then they don't deserve the business they get. Considering how the genre has been going down hill financially over the last decade, I'd say they better get a clue fast, because people are getting damn tired of the same formula, day in and day out.
Originally posted by Vorthanion They're the paid professionals, if they can't be bothered to even try, then they don't deserve the business they get. Considering how the genre has been going down hill financially over the last decade, I'd say they better get a clue fast, because people are getting damn tired of the same formula, day in and day out.
What the hell makes you think they aren't (or haven't) tried?
WoW's added at least a dozen at-the-cap systems that are all partial answers to the problem of capped-and-bored, (Not many of them are orignal to WoW, but that's typical of Blizzard design.)
See achievements, collection systems (many!), titles, mounts, heroics, your AA system--all partial answers, taken individually.
Not as big or as robust as to create it's own mini-hobby, the way PvP and Raiding are, but taken together they decrease the rate at which players grow too bored of playing the same old game despite years of exposure.
Developers are always looking for new ways to entertain players. What hasn't come along is the big, robust, can-stand-alone system that all of the players naively insist is so damn easy.
And it's NOT just Blizzard and never was, every developer on the planet is constantly working on new things to feed the rapacious carnivores.
Simple fact of the matter is that human beings just aren't designed to enjoy the same activity, month after month, year after year, indefinitely. Not even sex is that good.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I have never raided but would like to. But maybe not in the form that it is today. I agree the coordination of 40+ people and running hour long campaigns for a chance to win loot is a little too much. But I am liking the idea of a LFR mechanic where we can (casually) be placed in a raid.
Its not the loot that I like when I read/see raids. Its the experience to fight these larger than life enemies and to take part in the story. Instead of loot (if I miss the roll) just give some "special" coins that I can redeem for other things.
But I also believe there needs to be other content at 'end game' besides raiding. I keep saying this. make the worlds virtual. Allow players to make the content. Allow crafting to be player made so you have to interact. Never understood why they avoid these common sense ideas. Its almost like they aren't listening or don't care. Which is a bad combination for any MMO.
Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Four0Six Casual players don't need "endgame".....Seriously, no offence intended. "If" you want/need "endgame" you arent casual.
Reasoning with casuals doesn't work, they want everything and they want it spoon fed to them and then they want to complain about it
Issue is that at the pace of leveling now even a casual can be at end-game within a week or two, maybe even three for the most casual of players, and so there needs to be end-game content created for these players. Why should a game have content only being used or seen by a muchh smaller segment of the playerbase (hardcore) compared to the larger segment (casuals), as this makes no sense both from a player stand point as well as dev stand point. Also get over that stupid elitist mind-set about casuals, since it makes you look like a concited child that wants only those they see as worthy of seeing their toy (raiding/end-game). Everyone from casual to harcore players deserve to have a end-game or the ability to see the end-game they pay money to allow it's creaation from.
Originally posted by Asuran24 Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Four0Six Casual players don't need "endgame".....Seriously, no offence intended. "If" you want/need "endgame" you arent casual.
The power of actually reading, employ it something. There iS NO HARDCORE ENDGAME CONTENT, I've said that multiple times. Anyone can successfully do all the raids that come out. The issue has never been that the raiding is geared toward hardcore players, this issue is that it's geared toward people willing to put in effort versus people who don't and then want t ocomplain about it being too hard. None of it is hard, but if you do 20 man raids carrying 3+ people on your back, it will feel hard, even when the solution is as simple as 10 minutes of pre-raid prep. What I've noticed from years of MMOing is there has never been a hardcore - casual divide just a divide only a go getter - "why can't I just show up and win" divide
Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Asuran24 Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Four0Six Casual players don't need "endgame".....Seriously, no offence intended. "If" you want/need "endgame" you arent casual.
That all depends on what you determine to be hardcore, and casual. As casual is mostly placed as people that want to play and enjoy the game without having to treat it like a job, while hardcore treat the game almost as a job or badge of honor. The fact is that there will always be hardcore content, not by the fact that the devs or such create it that way, but that the players themselves will view it as such. But why should a player that plays alittle or alot not be able to show up, play the content, and then complete it without having to treat it like a second job. This is gaming for entertainment not some spot or contest (as much as others might think it is, that is personally created.). I have never had an issue with having modes or such of content that you need more preping to finish, so long as the base of that content is largely open for the entire playerrbase to actually participate in without having to treat their gaming time like a job.
Originally posted by Asuran24 Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Asuran24 Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Four0Six Casual players don't need "endgame".....Seriously, no offence intended. "If" you want/need "endgame" you arent casual.
I feel like what you're seeking is already the case. Whenever the new instances come out, I see just about every raiding guild in it. The only difference is the "hardcore" people get through it faster than the "casual". I have never seen new content out and even the most casual of raiding guilds say boo hoo we can't go in there and try. They are in there just like we were, they just did the content way slower and died way more. All of which I credit to lack of preparation having watched most of their streams and having had alts in their guilds which I used to raid with them. This is and always will remain an effort issue. Those who put in the most effort will have a higher probability of success and a higher chance at the rewards than those who put in less. Nothing developers do can change that.
Originally posted by Balmer It's really frustrating to hear that an already dumbed down, main-stream, low-investment in time for raiding like what we see in WoW is STILL not easy enough for your 'casuals'. You reap what you sew. If you spend the most time, the most energy, the most strategy, the most in-game coin on consumables, then you DESERVE the best gear in the game. The end-game SHOULD reward those who are the most dedicated. If you don't have the time to commit, sorry, QQ more. I have a full time job, a family, AND go to school in the evenings, and I still find time to raid a few nights a week. You ppl have no idea how easy you have it in most of the MMOs out there. You want your fun spoon-fed to you and you want the same rewards as those that spend much more time and energy. I say, tough sh*t and grow up. The real world isn't going to work like that...why should a massive online community. I've played Eve for many years, WoW since Day 1, EQ1, DAOC, Shadowbane, DDO, LOTR beta currently, so I have a little experience with MMOs. Eve has a really nice system for casuals because they can 'level up skills' even when offline. It requires no effort whatsoever...only time. But where's the reward for being more dedicated? I doesn't instill any sort of motivation to actually try harder...kind of like socialism, I think. Democratic, free market economies reward the business for it's ingenuity, dedication, and creates a competitive environment. Yeah, it's a tad cut-throat and borders on evil, maybe, but it's the best system to push mankind to prosper.
I agree with you on most points except for time spent. I am a casual player and I think raiding can be really fun, but not many games have done it in a good way for casual players. Most of my raiding experience was when playing EverQuest from 99-2005 and more recently on the Vulak progression server. I used to have the time to raid a lot back in the day, I just don't anymore. I couldn't keep up with the players in the guild I joined that litterally plays 24/7 and had to bow out. People would wait for hours and hours for a raid target and that doesn't appeal to me at all. I would much rather see raids instanced with lockout timers added for both defeating or for losing, so that the content isn't abused. There should also be a cap on the number of players so it isn't possible to "zerg" anything. This way players could still take part in raiding without the wasted time of "competing" (which in the case of EQ is just griefing) or waiting for hours for minutes of fun.
Originally posted by Baldzulu I could not agree with you more. I'm your classic definition of a casual player and I'd love to see more game developers come up with better ideas for the "end game".
Well I understand and respect your statement... I do have a question for you and other casual gamers out there.
Being a casual gamer what would you all like to see as an idea for end game content?
Please dont say more questing ... we are talking about when you reached max level ...completed storylines , reputations max and so forth. What at that point due you want to see or have an idea about for end game content? Please keep in mind I am not trying to be disrespectful to the casual gamer I am trying to understand what is it that you want for endgame content.
I am strong support of the concept of risk vs reward. If you raid for month for shot at the big boss guy in hopes to get that shiny new pixal item .... then you deserve it. I believe if you put in the time and effort to achieve something then kudos to you.
So help me understand what does the casual want to see at the endgame content?
I have no problems with raids, but I do have a problem with it mostly being what most of end game is about. Let there be raids but let there also be allot of other alternatives, that's what is lacking.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who are able to do raids for hours upon hours (I am definitly not one of them) but should we really exclude them now from something they enjoy? nah I don't think so.Lack of alternatives is the problem, not the raids.
Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Vorthanion Originally posted by Ursamajorr Originally posted by Vorthanion Originally posted by Ursamajorr It's best if the author of this article never speaks again as he has no idea what he's talking about, and at least get rid of the typos if you want to be taken seriously. That's the laziness that probably has you whining so much. I've heard this rant endlessly from crybabies in MMOs. The second the author cried about the hardcore raid problem I knew he was a waste of space. The problem you all have isn't that end game raiding is catered to "hardcore" players because it isn't, your problem is that it's not catered toward lazy people, which is what you are. I've been in and led top 10 raiding guilds in multiple MMOs and every instance has been easily conquered with a little time and actual effort. We spent no more time than any of the casual guilds, we just didn't whine and we did a little homework to show up prepared. In fact the most fail people I've seen who complain about raids being too hard spend more time online than anyone else in town whining, when they could have spent that time perfecting their play. You all are basically saying Mount Everest should have an elevator so everyone can get up there and not just the hardcore people. Raids are based on a team going in prepared and executing, every team I've seen fail at an endgame raid was because they brought people who didn't come prepared, those are the "casuals" and the "hardcore" was the team that each member said 'you know what, I'm not going to waste everyone else's time tonight and I'm going to do my homework on what to expect tonight'. That's the only difference, stop crying and being selfish and grow up
The fact that you play games at all is an indication of laziness. You should be doing other productive things like working a second job or doing your chores or donating your free time to charity work. The gall you have to call people lazy for not wanting to play the way you think they should is disgusting.
Alright you seem kind of sad. Games aren't lazy, games are fun, you do fun things. Just stop whining about raiding, no one says you have to raid, you make that choice. I don't complain about a game, it's not my game, I choose to play it and if you choose to play it, shut up about it. You know what you're paying for. They have countless websites and reviews about every MMO before you decide to play it and pay for it.
Complaining about how developers are using my money to continue creating content for a select few is not only valid, it is essential to bring about change. The problem, which should be so obvious to you as it is to us, is this constant bait and switch, where the low to mid game is so completely different compared to the end game. Games that are casual suddenly become raid or die and there are virtually no games that don't do this. The genre is pervasive in its deceit and conceit. You should take your own advice and shut the hell up. You are being nothing more than contentious in a discussion that is healthy and valid. You have given no good excuses on why it should be the way it is other than to demean any other player that doesn't fit your idea of a real gamer. You sir, need to grow up.
I don't need to give an excuse, it's their game, they can do what they want with it. You're just whining. If you don't like how they're using your money why did you start paying it in the first place, so you could start complaining? I don't know where you got this bait and switch from, it was obvious to me when I bought every MMO at launch exactly what was coming, I don't know how you missed the fact that there would be end game raiding, WOW, EQ and RIFT made no attempts to hide or disguise the fact that there would be. You really have no idea what you're talking about at all, as you keep misrepresenting what I'm saying. If you don't like the genre as it's been for the last 10+ years, don't play it and shut up. Raiding has been around, I don't know how you feel blindsided by it, perhaps you're slow. There are plenty of easy games out there that you can put on baby mode and drool your way through. Change your diaper.
Where do you get off thinking your playstyle should have greatest amount of representation in the genre and anyone who disagrees should shut the hell up? You're whining about the whining, which makes you look like the real loser in this equation. When there is no option to play any casual game that doesn't have raiding as the ultimate path of progression, then yes, people like me have every right to speak up and demand something more. Get off your high horse and change your own stinking diapers. You're a child throwing a tantrum because people are calling foul on an industry that has catered to you spoiled brats for far too long.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Vorthanion They're the paid professionals, if they can't be bothered to even try, then they don't deserve the business they get. Considering how the genre has been going down hill financially over the last decade, I'd say they better get a clue fast, because people are getting damn tired of the same formula, day in and day out.
15 plus years of MMO design stagnation. Either these people are clueless and lack any sort of imagination or the powers that be don't want to change. The recent trend of immediate player base losses is a wake up call they better start paying attention to if they want to keep the genre alive and paying.
I personally think 10 man Raiding has a future in a fashion, but the focus needs to be on asthetics and wow factor of the story telling and encounters, and not loot or 'balancing'. By all means give good loot, but loot you can get elsewhere as well. Dont make it possible to run through the encounter as fast as your legs can take you - all enemy NPC's are part of the adventure, allowing you to use different ranges of skils etc (running past everything is hardly fun)
If you look at forums discussing modern encounters its page after page after page after page of discussion regarding balancing, Over powered specs blah blah blah, even developers are sucked in. The more they struggle to get the 'balance' because 1 class does more 'dps' the more they lose grip. Remove the raid loot as the 'BIS only option, allow for specs to be different, and free up resource to massively expand on PVE skills -this is where fun lies imo. For those that want ultra hard mode, give it, but give extra gold as a reward not BIS gear and remove all the emotive rubbish that is destroying creativity.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Originally posted by Ursamajorr It's best if the author of this article never speaks again as he has no idea what he's talking about, and at least get rid of the typos if you want to be taken seriously. That's the laziness that probably has you whining so much. I've heard this rant endlessly from crybabies in MMOs. The second the author cried about the hardcore raid problem I knew he was a waste of space.
He wrote this article in 2006 and seven years later here you are slagging him off. I doubt he is listening.
Originally posted by Vorthanion 15 plus years of MMO design stagnation. Either these people are clueless and lack any sort of imagination or the powers that be don't want to change. The recent trend of immediate player base losses is a wake up call they better start paying attention to if they want to keep the genre alive and paying.
Yeah, yeah, it's all so simple and they could fix it easy, if they just weren't so totally lazy and stupid. /yawn
This thread is some serious necro action. I started reading without looking at the 2006 date and one of the posters started talking about level 60s in WoW and the new patch that might improve the game. I was time-warped. People still talking about this and raiding still hasn't died. A lot of us are still looking for a different kid of endgame, but nothing. Still.
What does it mean!?!
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil