Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

1568101117

Comments

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Broomy
    Loved GW2 until I entered the clusterf--k known as their dungeon instances.  Mob aggro everywhere, people dying and "running back", just a hotmess.  "Good players" cant excel in that kind of chaos.  I went running right back to the Trinity based MMOs.  Someone, someday will build a better non-trinity mechanic and until that day I'll stay with the  trinity.

    Er.. actually, good players ARE the ones that excel in those situations.  There is an aggro system, you just don't always understand it on the first try.  God forbid you have to learn how certain types of enemies prioritize their targets.  Let's make it simple and give all the aggro to one person in the group.  After all, it's not like that ever got old.

    Oh good. You seem to know it all. Can you explain how in the hell the following happens and what we can do about it? Thanks.

     

    Originally posted by vindir
    Originally posted by SuperNick
    1. ()

    () 

    You know the champ at the end of that chain - he had a hate on for me one time. I played my ranger at the time. He kept coming at me  - and ONLY freakin me. I thought, "c'mon someone pull him off me!'" but alas none could. He beat me into the ground. Thats ok, I rezzed in the camp next to the champ and thought he'd fix on someone else. I got back into the fight and the freakin thing made a bee line for me. WTH? OK, someone heal me - nope no healers! Someone pull aggro - nope not happening either. I died (again) it stopped. I got rezed - it freaking came right for me again. Had to be a cruel joke. So I stopped dps'ing and kitted around to see if it was truly just me it wanted - yep. It followed me in circles. Everyone around me was yelling to stop kiting. So I stood there, died, got rezed, died, rezed, died, and so on until it was finsihed. At least everyone got their daily rez completed.

    ()

    Post #65.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,256Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Latronus
    I've never liked the trinity.  It's completely unrealistic, yeah I know, realism in a fantasy game???  Combat is chaotic.  Having a person basically hurling insults while everyone else beats the hell outta a mob is unimaginative mechanics.  The trinity forces an order where none should exist.  I think GW2s approach is a step in the right direction.  The combat is somewhat chaotic like it should be and if the players are selfish and don't work together then failure is an option just as in real combat.  People are resistant to change and since this is a change, many won't like it and can't accept that they have to do something besides, throw insults, heal or DPS to the max.  /shrug. 

    I guess you never played PvP before in a MMO.

    the two groups of players that get the most enemy attention is the big Melee DPS that's smacking the shit out of you in your face, running circles around you making it annoying to fight.

    and the healers keeping them alive.

    did you ever play Vanilla Rift PvP?

    once I understood that the trinity also applies in PvP, I built team Stratagy around it. What I define as the tank is mostly the Melee DPS fighters in the group, who can handle a bit of pressure and can do nice threating attacks. Like a Melee Warrior, who most people were afraid of in vanilla Rift. Also Melee clerics, because being a cleric put the automatic fear that they could be a healer of some kind and they smacking you in Melee at the same time, and harder to kill, just like a tank.

     

    the enemy will focus fire on them if your tanks know how to play their role.

     

    and just like in the PvE form of the trinity, the DPS (or as I define DPS here, is anybody that damage from ranged combat) always focus fire the Tank's target, because if you fire on others you will draw aggro away from the tank. Your added damage on the tank's target makes the tank's attacks seem even more of a major threat, making the enemy want to focus on the tank even more.

     

    healers do their role of keeping the tank healthy and keeping them un-CCed as possible so they can do their role. Hybrids, aka support can help out here by providing constant buffs to power the tank in anyway you can.

     

    when you do stuff like this your faction dominates in PvP. The Trinity is real. That Aggro charts is just a simulation of what goes on. Real people faces threats and hate, which a computer does not, which is why they use mechanics of hate chart to simulate that emotion and fear.

    image

  • dgarbinidgarbini San Jose, CAPosts: 185Member

    Just putting in my opinion, I prefer the non-trinity system.  I feel it is less restrictive, more open for a variety of tactics and play then set roles.  I did like how GW2 did this.  Many other problems in the game I just dont feel this was one of them.

    I dont remember ever enjoying 'oh we cant run the dungeon we have to wait for a healer or a tank' or when one sucks the group wipes etc.  Or even if your duoing you have to pick duo's that match well.

    One way I would like to see it improved from the GW2 system is to add a huge more variety of builds per profession/class.  Currently their system is quite lack luster in this aspect and often only one or two variations are viable.

  • DartmedDartmed AthensPosts: 36Member
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Broomy
    Loved GW2 until I entered the clusterf--k known as their dungeon instances.  Mob aggro everywhere, people dying and "running back", just a hotmess.  "Good players" cant excel in that kind of chaos.  I went running right back to the Trinity based MMOs.  Someone, someday will build a better non-trinity mechanic and until that day I'll stay with the  trinity.

    Er.. actually, good players ARE the ones that excel in those situations.  There is an aggro system, you just don't always understand it on the first try.  God forbid you have to learn how certain types of enemies prioritize their targets.  Let's make it simple and give all the aggro to one person in the group.  After all, it's not like that ever got old.

    Oh good. You seem to know it all. Can you explain how in the hell the following happens and what we can do about it? Thanks.

     

    Yes please do tell how the aggro system works , because it seems that ANET is keeping it a secret ...... 

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    I don't really think one way to do it is better then the other. I think it comes down to preference. There are weak points to both systems for sure. I would love to see more games going to the route of "no trinity" but at the same time I still want to see the holy trinity in other games. 
  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    There is enough room for both types. The holy trinity isn't the end all - be all of MMOs; same applies to no trinity.
  • LauraFrostLauraFrost New York, NYPosts: 95Member

     

    Stop calling it "Trinity" because WoW standardized this genre to its shallowest form.

     

    Call it "Role Specific Classes" or whatever. It's the fact that you need to play a ROLE in a group, it doesn't have to be Tank, Healer and DPS.

     

    For a group to make sense, in my humble opinion and 30 years experience in games, you need to give some roles to group members. If everyone was doing the same thing in a group.... the experience become stupid (to me at least). You need roles, you need people working together to overcome challenges.

     

    I really want this to be expanded upon. EverQuest added many roles like the Tank, Healer, Crowd Control, Puller, Debuffer, Damage Dealers. Why are we dumping it down to just Tank, Healer and DPS is beyond me.

     

     

  • AzureProwerAzurePrower AustraliaPosts: 1,508Member Uncommon

    To be honest. I like both systems for different reasons.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    Im playing both, GW2 gives me a nice experience of non vlass specificy (I play elementalist condition) and Rift subbed/WOW tbc private server for my hit of class specific. 

    Its great having both styles to choose from, long may it last.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    I think the holy trio is a good system but I also think GW2's way of having a sort of a dynamic 'holy trio' can also work.

    I will say GW2 really should have explained their system better though to ANet's credit, they do acknowledge that their tutorial is god-awful.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,079Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RebornDragon

    I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.

     

    This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.

     

    Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging. 

    I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.

    Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.

     

    Coolermaster Cosmos II Case
    Corsair AX1200W Modular PSU
    Intel Core i7 3970X OC 4.50GHz
    Asus P9X79 PRO Intel X7
    16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 PC3-1866MHz
    840 Series 250GB SSDs
    Seagate Barracuda 2TB HDDs
    EVGA SuperClocked GTX TITAN 6GB GDDR5 SLi

  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon

    NO WAY i can go back to be attached to a role (tank,healer or dps)

    Now I´m  a human  Thief....or a BIG bad ass Norn Guardian or  an Elementalist...and play the best i can, everyway i can,depends on the moment.

    If GW2 did something good...was exactly that !!!

    And the grouping system where everyone share  Exp + loot + collaboration is rewarded!

    Do you really want to be back to that Tank /heal/dps punishment?

    NOT me TY!

     

    BTW:

    GW2 ALWAYS warned about it´s role system!

    It´s not like you can be deceived by that! Maybe it´s just you wanted GW2 to be "the game you want for yourself"

    imageimageimage

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by RebornDragon

    I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.

     

    This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.

     

    Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging. 

    I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.

    Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.

     

    Agree with first sentence.  The rest is just 'I like A and dont Like B so its rubbish' im afraid.  Having both types (and more) is healthy for all players.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,079Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by RebornDragon

    I'd go back and copy/paste all the times I said initially people would flock to it but it would eventually die but I'm lazy.

     

    This was bound to happen. Most people want dedicated roles. I want to play a healer, GW2 didn't let me with it's system. They made a horrible mistake and unless they introduce a healer down the road and fix their game and admit what they did was stupid thast game's population will continue to fall.

     

    Yah, I'm ready for the flames from the fan boys, but I don't care. They messed up and I, along with many others, called it well before the game was released. It's only going to go downhill for GW2. The population is hemoraging. 

    I agree, how many people in this thrread had sworn they would never play another holy trinity game again or that the system is dead lol.

    Fact is the holy trinity never went anywhere in the first place, it will be here long after defunked system like GW2 are ashes. Thank god TESO has the trinity and no dungeon scaling. ZemiMax went with the trinity and considering both GW2 and TESO started development at the same time in 2007, GW2's system was never an option.

     

    Agree with first sentence.  The rest is just 'I like A and dont Like B so its rubbish' im afraid.  Having both types (and more) is healthy for all players.

    There is both types, they can have GW2 and wildstarr and we who like the trinity will have games like TESO and ArcheAge.

     

    See, everyone is happy.image

    Coolermaster Cosmos II Case
    Corsair AX1200W Modular PSU
    Intel Core i7 3970X OC 4.50GHz
    Asus P9X79 PRO Intel X7
    16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 PC3-1866MHz
    840 Series 250GB SSDs
    Seagate Barracuda 2TB HDDs
    EVGA SuperClocked GTX TITAN 6GB GDDR5 SLi

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    I am not a "fan" of trinity, but I am a fan of grouping. If the only way games can be designed for grouping then trinity is fine.

    Designing MMO's for solo play means you won't have any structure what so ever. Thats nearly where we are now.

  • VolmokVolmok Cluj-NapocaPosts: 63Member Uncommon

    IMO trinity works best for PvE centered games and it hurts PvP centric games.

    If a game is not designed to accomodate tanks and hybrids in PvP (like WoW is) the most players will be forced to take a route to make them viable in PvP (dps and healer). I GW2 I like the fact that you can be a dps/support and the support part varies from healing, CC, debuffer, buffer. Even Rift, which many call it a WoW clone, offeres the player the option to be a support, granted it is very, very limited, but it has the option.

    In conclusion I think not the trinity system is wrong, the game designers are the ones responsible to make it work for their game and in all situations; if they focus more on one part then the other will be a bad experience (WoW focused more on PvE and GW2 focused more on PvP and it shows in both).

     

    just my $0.02

    V.

  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    I am not a "fan" of trinity, but I am a fan of grouping. If the only way games can be designed for grouping then trinity is fine.

    Designing MMO's for solo play means you won't have any structure what so ever. Thats nearly where we are now.

    I strongly disagree with you...

    If GW2 did something good was exactly that,allowing and easening grouping.

    You don´t need to wait for a healer or a Tank to show up anymore...

    You don´t need to look for specific roles,you simply look for mates. ANYONE can join & help!!!!

    Grouping has NEVER EVER been before so rewarding and easy like it is in Guild Wars 2!

    image

     

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    I never saw a problem with how WoW did it, with talents you could play many roles. I mean as a Druid I could play Tank, Damage dealer or a healer and yet the trinity still existed because you couldn't do it all at the same time. As a priest I could be a healer or a damage dealer and every class had at least two roles. It's the best class system out of any MMO I've played which uses one.

    Sadly though WoW got turned to shit.

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,006Member Uncommon
    It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well.  That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,079Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zzad
    Originally posted by Scot

    I am not a "fan" of trinity, but I am a fan of grouping. If the only way games can be designed for grouping then trinity is fine.

    Designing MMO's for solo play means you won't have any structure what so ever. Thats nearly where we are now.

    I strongly disagree with you...

    If GW2 did something good was exactly that,allowing and easening grouping. That is just your own opinion and does not mean you are right, you don't speak for everyone else.

    You don´t need to wait for a healer or a Tank to show up anymore...

    You don´t need to look for specific roles,you simply look for mates. ANYONE can join & help!!!!

    Grouping has NEVER EVER been before so rewarding and easy like it is in Guild Wars 2! Again that's just your opinion and does not make it so.

    image

     

    I'm glad you love GW2's system, you can play GW2 and we who like the trinity can play games like TESO.

     

    Everyone is happy, right?

    Coolermaster Cosmos II Case
    Corsair AX1200W Modular PSU
    Intel Core i7 3970X OC 4.50GHz
    Asus P9X79 PRO Intel X7
    16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 PC3-1866MHz
    840 Series 250GB SSDs
    Seagate Barracuda 2TB HDDs
    EVGA SuperClocked GTX TITAN 6GB GDDR5 SLi

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by observer
    It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well.  That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.

    There is a threat mechanic in GW2, it's just not as simple as WoW's.

    The way threat works in GW2 is this:

    Toughness, Damage Output, Lowest Health, Closeness to the Target

    The person who best fulfills the majority of these categories basically grabs aggro. Of course, there are some exceptions on certain bosses (like the berzerker in CoE), but that's how the majority of the game's AI works. It's also the reason why so many glass cannons have problems staying alive in this game. They go into a dungeon with literally ~13-15k HP, hitting like a nuclear missle, of course the boss is going to focus on them.

    Furthermore these numbers are dynamic. They constantly change, which is why sometimes someone will get hit hard by an attack, then keep getting hit once they're at low health. However, once you understand this threat table, it's fairly easy to manage your threat lvl with a little bit of pacing / kiting.

    - On Topic: I would really like to see more players getting AWAY from the trinity mindset. The whole concept of 'the trinity' is something fairly unique to MMOs specifically. This is because when technology was new, it was easier to design a game around such a simple system. However, imho, it's a fairly dull (and contrived) method of combat; one which we have already seen the flaws in, and have already been shown is no longer necessary.

    I enjoy the trinity system in small doses, but it's going to be very hard to have more interesting MMOs, until we can move passed such an archaic design philosophy. I'd love to see more games implement ways for players to experiment and come up w/ group comps that they enjoy, rather than being forced to play with class X, or class Y to get anything done. That's one of the things I enjoy about GW2; provided the players are competent, you can literally do the content w/ any combination of classes.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by observer
    It would have worked in GW2, except there wasn't a threat mechanic, and if there was, it wasn't implemented well.  That's why it felt chaotic, instead of a controlled environment.

    As post above states there is a threat mechanic and its very well implemented. you use boons/defenses/kiting to manage aggro and to drop it again.  Whats more you can use it to your advantage if you have fine enough control - grabbing aggro of those in trouble etc etc.  Where it does become chatoic is where you have 5 glasss cannons going hell for leather with their 'dps' and running through/past every room they can.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • eldariseldaris LondonPosts: 349Member

    Another vote for trinity or "Role Specific Classes". After playing gw2 and finding the lack of trinity boring ,especially in pvp (maybe because I enjoy playing healers in pvp ) I doubt I will try another game without role specific classes in the future.Someone said tanks are useless in pvp, that is not true, the only game where I enjoyed playing a tank was warhammer online where as a tank you could be quite useful in pvp battles,hopefully more games will copy collision detection and the rest of tank mechanics from warhammer in the future.
    I am also hoping some games bring back other roles beside healer,tank,dps like buffer (and not just for your party like a lot of new games seem to do it) or crowd control (this probably should be done very carefully in a pvp game to avoid players spending whole fights unable to control their character).

  • MeridionMeridion HeidelbergPosts: 1,490Member
    I like to play healers and I can't in gw2, buff said
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

    It never went anywhere...

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

1568101117
Sign In or Register to comment.