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Please stop buying "founder's packs" !

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  • Venomizer2Venomizer2 Unknown, CAPosts: 11Member
    Investors rarely have any control over investments. They are investing money or resources into a project which they think will give decent returns, either in profit or in a product they have an interest in.

    Games are no different. If players have a vested interest in seeing a game that they like succeed, they are happy to pay these founders fees.

    Investors would expect details in advance and some proof that it will succeed. business plan or something.

     

    This is not comparable to investing. Investors pull support, investors are in the loop, investors get $ reward.

     

    Gamers paying up front is just a different animal entirely. They are not in the production pipeline in any way shape or form.

     

    IMO they are still customers, just parting with their money in advance so they have no leverage if the product underachieves.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,750Member Uncommon
    Agree with the OP...Never understood the Pay for beta nad early access mentality......Also there are so many free options out there now why the heck would anyone pay for beta?
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Agree with the OP...Never understood the Pay for beta nad early access mentality......Also there are so many free options out there now why the heck would anyone pay for beta?

    why do people just assume that is the only reason why people buy these packs?

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Why compalin about "other people paying" so you can have a game to play?  don't make sense.

    Not to mention that many studio have funding problem.  I recall a few mmorpg being scrap in the mid of development because they can't get enough funding.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Aviggin

    I personally like how Cryptic is selling it. Mainly, you can buy ALL of this, valued at $549.99 or whatever, for only $199.99!

    Put a few things in a pack and randomly value it at 2x+ what they're asking. Yeah. Whatever. lol

    Yeah I am glad others noticed this too. I would love for them to justify where they come up with their values for these items.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Yizle
    Originally posted by Aviggin

    I personally like how Cryptic is selling it. Mainly, you can buy ALL of this, valued at $549.99 or whatever, for only $199.99!

    Put a few things in a pack and randomly value it at 2x+ what they're asking. Yeah. Whatever. lol

    Yeah I am glad others noticed this too. I would love for them to justify where they come up with their values for these items.

    lol i did find that funny $200 i could see considering how much other games charge for things like mounts but no clue where they came up with the $549 figure

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • lugallugal Escondido, CAPosts: 639Member Uncommon

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4148/PreOrders-and-Lifetime-Subs.html

    Column By Jon Wood on April 08, 2010

    Pre-Orders

    The first thing that I want to talk about is pre-ordering. The long and the short of my argument is that no one should do this. Ever. There are only a couple of reasons that I can see to pre-order a game:

    Sold Out - You fear that the game will be sold out on launch day and you want to reserve your spot. While I can sympathise with the idea behind this, when is the last time an MMO (outside of WoW and the odd Darkfall release) sold out to the point where you couldn't get a copy either physically or through digital download? In this age of easy distribution, I wouldn't think that this should be much of an incentive.

    Cool Stuff - Maybe you pre-ordered because the company offered you some kind of incentive to do so. You want it, so you did it. Problem is, all the trinkets in the world don't make a bad game into a good game.

    You Like It - Maybe you're in the beta or even alpha of the game, and you really, honestly enjoy the game and were planning to buy it anyway so why not get it out of the way? Plus, there might be some cool stuff you can get as well. This is a fantastic reason to buy a game, but barring a fear of the game being sold out, I don't know if the rush to pre-order is entirely necessary.

    Hype - You're so psyched about this game based on what you've read on this and other gaming sites around the web that you're 100% confident you're going to love this game and want to support it in any way you can. Ok, if you fall into this category, I just don't know what to tell you other than don't come crying to me if the game doesn't meet your expectations. If it does meet your expectations and you love it, great. If it doesn't, you frankly got what you deserve.

    It's not that I think all pre-orders are bad. There are legitimate reasons to pre-order a game. That being said, I think that three major problems emerge with the pre-order phenomenon: First, people are often shocked when a game that they pre-ordered doesn't live up to their expectations. Second, companies add more and more incentives (including beta access and other extras) for people to pre-order and finally, it gives less incentive for games to have to offer quality at-launch products. They have their pre-orders already and can always "improve the game post-launch."

    In the end, pre-orders seem to cause more headaches for people than they give benefit to and all I have to say is this: If you pre-order a game and then complain that the game wasn't good enough, I have little to no pity for you. No, you don't deserve a refund. You purchased something sight unseen, pre-launch (so you didn't even have any reliable info on it). That's entirely your own fault.

    Lifetime Subscriptions

    If there's one group of people that I feel less sympathy for when a game doesn't meet their expectations than I do for people who pre-order, it's people who shell out hundreds of dollars for a lifetime subscription to a game they have never played before.

    I understand that lifetime subscriptions can be a good deal if it's a game that you enjoy and feel like you're going to play for a few years. I understand that some people just honestly have that kind of money to throw around and that there's a certain appeal to being able to come and go from a game at a moment's notice.

    With that being said, I will never understand the people who basically pre-order a lifetime subscription to a game without ever having actually spent any time playing the game. Then, my mind completely boggles when the people who bought these lifetime subscriptions complain that they didn't get the game they thought they were getting.

    Here's my opinion: buying a lifetime subscription to a game completely undermines your power as a consumer. MMO development studios don't put time and resources into updating their games as much as they do out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it in order to keep making money. Ultimately, to keep people subscribing to their game. If they already have all of the money they're going to get out of you. Why then, other than out of the goodness of their hearts (or good PR, but we're all too cynical for that), would they care what your opinions are, you've already given them your power.

    Anyway guys, just some food for thought on this week's column. Hope it's getting warmer for you wherever you are as we make our way out of this winter and into the sunshine.

     
     

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • AmsaiAmsai Montgomery, ALPosts: 88Member Uncommon

    @ OP

    WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU?

     

    Answer: Some random dude on the internet, just like me.

     

    I like what Ive seen from NWO so far, I wont be spending money on any of the founders packs. But if I did its none of your business. For different games I will determine what and whe I spend any amount of money. I however am not afraid to throw money at something if I feel so inclined. If it ends up shit, then I walk away.

     

    Besides there are so many stupid things in this world people spend money on. I doubt youve never done so. This includes everything from toys for kids (not necessary for a child to live) to cigs and beer (waste of money bound to cause health problems) Everyone has thier vices and dirty little pleasures. Stop worrying about mine and get back to yours.

  • ragz45ragz45 rochester hills, MIPosts: 686Member Uncommon
    Telling others how to spend their hard earned cash.  Always a wonderful way to garner support for an idea you are trying to push across.....
  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Ok but only because you said please.
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,941Member Uncommon
    All "Founder's Packs" are, are LTSs for a game with no subscription by another name. Since buying an LTS for an unreleased game is: 1.Dumb, and 2. Shown repeatedly to not be "worth it", (And is something most buyers regret) I feel no pity for the people that do buy them at this point. STO, HG:london, APB, there are plenty of examples. People should know better by now. If they don't, they deserve what they get.
  • BrianshoBriansho Woodbridge, VAPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    People are paying 200 for a free game. Hopefully the game lasts at least a year and they get their money's worth. What are the chances all the items offered will be freely obtainable sometime in that first year?

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Briansho
    People are paying 200 for a free game. Hopefully the game lasts at least a year and they get their money's worth. What are the chances all the items offered will be freely obtainable sometime in that first year?

    if STO under PW is any indicator I'm pretty sure that won't be a problem, PW brought STO back from death.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HappyFunBall

    This trend has GOT to stop.  Selling weekend, or closed beta access?  What?  It blows my mind that game pre-orders exist, especially 1 to 1.5 years out, and people buy them.  Who would buy a product that doesn't even come out for over a year?  Seriously, what's wrong with people?

    As far as Founder's packs, to me, this is saying, "Hey, our game isn't done yet, but fund our development, and beta test (or alpha test) our game, and we'll even let you PAY for it!"

    You can't make 50-80k as a SQA analyst, or engineer.  But let's pay THEM to "let" us test their game. What?

    Many games stress test behind the scenes, and even gather all sorts or performance data from you, and you pay them to help test their software.  This seems ass-backwards to me, especially as a principal software engineer.

    I understand some people think they that are making a game they want better by beta testing, but paying for it?  Some of these founder packs are $200!!!!  For what, virtual items, and only weekend play time like Neverwinter?  I'm the Firefall beta, and it's not even a beta.  There's a ton of game content that isn't in the game yet.  Sorry, but by definition, that makes in an alpha.

    Are people really THIS desperate to play a game?

    The worst thing to me is not even playing the game once, and then shelling out $200 on a founders pack.  Without even knowing if you like the game or not?  Again, what??

    Also, I'm not trolling.  Just posting an opinion.  I really think this is a terrible trend.

     

    Quit telling me how to spend my disposable income!  If I want to support a company and get some perks then I'll continue to do so.  Its 100 times more beneficial to me then this whole new kickstarter bullshit that goes on.  You''ll never see me funding some poor schmuck who cant get his own financing for a game that will eventually suck anyway because of it.  I do not begrudge people who do the kickstarter thing, just as you shouldnt begrudge me for supporting a company through foundry packs even if it is for ulterior motives.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • HarafnirHarafnir VikingvillePosts: 1,324Member Uncommon

    Do not worry, OP. A year after relase all those that paid 100s of dollars will sit in the game company forum and cry "I feel cheated! I spent this much money and all I get is... and you do not produce content fast enough.. and cry and moan and whine" and so on and so forth. It has happened to all games with lifetime subs, to all games with preorders and it will happen to all games with "Founders packs" (or more accuratly "Vacation to Aruba financing plan"). They are sooo proud when they throw their money away, feeling like regular Trumps "I am so rich!"... Then, the game is released... the "New Shiny Toy" feeling is lost within a month and then.. the regret set in. Will they blame themselves? NOPE! Will they take back all the arrogant smacktalk before the release? NOPE... they will blame the developer, and say "They were cheated!"

     

    Same thing over and over again. It will never change, people will never learn.. Takes a lot higher IQ than average to learn something. Ignore them... The developers will.

    "This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
    It should be thrown with great force"

  • MajorBiggsMajorBiggs Visalia, CAPosts: 706Member Uncommon

    ~~~~~~~~ATTENTION EVERYONE READING THE THREAD~~

    (or someone who's about to post something like "OP is stupid its my money hur heur heur heur ur a nazi")

     

    PLEASE go back a few replies and read that column by Jon Wood someone posted about how PREORDERS ARE BAD.

    I feel that many in this thread are missing the point (a somewhat confusing one) about money up-front/content on launch and developer incentives.

    Don't be stupid...of course you can do whatever you want with your money,  other than buy baby-flavored waffles at gas stations. Like someone said earlier, what YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY ON effects ALL OF US by influencing the market. If no one bought any items from cash shops they wouldn't exist but we know that's not the case (i'm not saying that's right or wrong, to each their own).

    But just look at the posts on the forums here for the past few years. WE HAVENT had very many successful titles launch lately and that's even with console games.

    OH YOU WANT TO SUPPORT THEM FINANCIALLY YOU SAY? GEE YOU'RE SO NICE. I'd be giving money out left and right and live on the streets due to helping devs IF the trend lately wasn't to develop a shitty game. By that I mean half ass.

     

     

    The MMORPG market is changing bigtime and with so many damn mmo's out and so many damn let-downs the past few years I think it's time we give a little more thought to our favorite form of entertainment.

     

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    Well for one I would pay my £20 a year on random stuff in the GW2 cash shop than the £100 a year subscription I used to pay to Blizzard.  I WANT subscriptions to die, I want all games to be cash shops - because at that point cash shops will mature, and the ones that succeed will be the ones that are fair.  £100 a year sub for a game, really?

    Much melodramatic chewing noses of own faces going on here.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    Originally posted by MajorBiggs

    ~~~~~~~~ATTENTION EVERYONE READING THE THREAD~~

    (or someone who's about to post something like "OP is stupid its my money hur heur heur heur ur a nazi")

     

    PLEASE go back a few replies and read that column by Jon Wood someone posted about how PREORDERS ARE BAD.

    I feel that many in this thread are missing the point (a somewhat confusing one) about money up-front/content on launch and developer incentives.

    Don't be stupid...of course you can do whatever you want with your money,  other than buy baby-flavored waffles at gas stations. Like someone said earlier, what YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY ON effects ALL OF US by influencing the market. If no one bought any items from cash shops they wouldn't exist but we know that's not the case (i'm not saying that's right or wrong, to each their own).

    But just look at the posts on the forums here for the past few years. WE HAVENT had very many successful titles launch lately and that's even with console games.

    OH YOU WANT TO SUPPORT THEM FINANCIALLY YOU SAY? GEE YOU'RE SO NICE. I'd be giving money out left and right and live on the streets due to helping devs IF the trend lately wasn't to develop a shitty game. By that I mean half ass.

     

     

    The MMORPG market is changing bigtime and with so many damn mmo's out and so many damn let-downs the past few years I think it's time we give a little more thought to our favorite form of entertainment.

     

    Spoken like a true socialist

    No seriously though, we will never have an utopian world where people only spend money where we would want them to. Instead of telling people on forums they are doing it wrong, why not aim a bit lower and tell them to stop whining AFTER they have exerted their right to spend the money as they please.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    ************************ PLEASE DO BUY FOUNDRY PACK IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT *********************************

    For the sake of arguement I will give a counter arguement, since I think cash shops in reputable games are much more cost effective for the consumer (i.e you are not forced to spend £100 a year + cash shops on a sub game) I say do support the Foundry if it appeals to you and you can afford it!

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Starpower
    Originally posted by MajorBiggs

    ~~~~~~~~ATTENTION EVERYONE READING THE THREAD~~

    (or someone who's about to post something like "OP is stupid its my money hur heur heur heur ur a nazi")

     

    PLEASE go back a few replies and read that column by Jon Wood someone posted about how PREORDERS ARE BAD.

    I feel that many in this thread are missing the point (a somewhat confusing one) about money up-front/content on launch and developer incentives.

    Don't be stupid...of course you can do whatever you want with your money,  other than buy baby-flavored waffles at gas stations. Like someone said earlier, what YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY ON effects ALL OF US by influencing the market. If no one bought any items from cash shops they wouldn't exist but we know that's not the case (i'm not saying that's right or wrong, to each their own).

    But just look at the posts on the forums here for the past few years. WE HAVENT had very many successful titles launch lately and that's even with console games.

    OH YOU WANT TO SUPPORT THEM FINANCIALLY YOU SAY? GEE YOU'RE SO NICE. I'd be giving money out left and right and live on the streets due to helping devs IF the trend lately wasn't to develop a shitty game. By that I mean half ass.

     

     

    The MMORPG market is changing bigtime and with so many damn mmo's out and so many damn let-downs the past few years I think it's time we give a little more thought to our favorite form of entertainment.

     

    Spoken like a true socialist

    No seriously though, we will never have an utopian world where people only spend money where we would want them to. Instead of telling people on forums they are doing it wrong, why not aim a bit lower and tell them to stop whining AFTER they have exerted their right to spend the money as they please.

    Lol, if anything he asked others to stop being  socialists. Asking to stop giving those gamecompanies money, as if thinking that devs from big gamecompanies need wellfare (in the form of fundrais..ehh founderpacks:p )

  • jonrd463jonrd463 Tacoma, WAPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    Lol, if anything he asked others to stop being  socialists. Asking to stop giving those gamecompanies money, as if thinking that devs from big gamecompanies need wellfare (in the form of fundrais..ehh founderpacks:p )

    So... uh... where do you think "big gamecompanies" get their money? Some currency farting magical unicorn?

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • enoliceenolice gardaPosts: 71Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HappyFunBall

    This trend has GOT to stop.  Selling weekend, or closed beta access?  What?  It blows my mind that game pre-orders exist, especially 1 to 1.5 years out, and people buy them.  Who would buy a product that doesn't even come out for over a year?  Seriously, what's wrong with people?

    As far as Founder's packs, to me, this is saying, "Hey, our game isn't done yet, but fund our development, and beta test (or alpha test) our game, and we'll even let you PAY for it!"

    You can't make 50-80k as a SQA analyst, or engineer.  But let's pay THEM to "let" us test their game. What?

    Many games stress test behind the scenes, and even gather all sorts or performance data from you, and you pay them to help test their software.  This seems ass-backwards to me, especially as a principal software engineer.

    I understand some people think they that are making a game they want better by beta testing, but paying for it?  Some of these founder packs are $200!!!!  For what, virtual items, and only weekend play time like Neverwinter?  I'm the Firefall beta, and it's not even a beta.  There's a ton of game content that isn't in the game yet.  Sorry, but by definition, that makes in an alpha.

    Are people really THIS desperate to play a game?

    The worst thing to me is not even playing the game once, and then shelling out $200 on a founders pack.  Without even knowing if you like the game or not?  Again, what??

    Also, I'm not trolling.  Just posting an opinion.  I really think this is a terrible trend.

     AGREED IN 100 %

     

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jonrd463
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    Lol, if anything he asked others to stop being  socialists. Asking to stop giving those gamecompanies money, as if thinking that devs from big gamecompanies need wellfare (in the form of fundrais..ehh founderpacks:p )

    So... uh... where do you think "big gamecompanies" get their money? Some currency farting magical unicorn?

    They earn by delivering quality products that people like to buy. 

    Instead of selling a promise and then at some point decide whether they feel like living up to that promise.

    Giving a commercial company money before they have to deliver an off the shelf product (as opposed to exclusively made for you) is downright silly. Good business for the company, but stupid from the customer.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon

    So exercise your right as a consumer and dont buy.  People who are buying this are not blind monkies that drool while they throw their money about, they will probably have played the beta, and definately would have researched the game to the point where they find the product appealing and value for money (for them)  Its too expensive for me, but im not going to preach.

    If you want a real target for this kind of stuff look at SWTOR and the Free to play model it uses - fundementally reduce quality of gameplay if you dont spend - thats what yshould be shot down in flames.

    incedently the best quality testing comes from real users who have extended hands on while you monitor, beta is a winwin (I dont do betas as i think it ruins the opening day experience)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • huskie77huskie77 Nowhere, NEPosts: 354Member

    Let's let free market economics determine things. If there is a consumer demand, let a company meet it. These pre-order packs have been determined to be at or near the supply/demand equilibrium point, which is why they are repeatedly used.

    Ideas like the OP's about artificially limiting participation in a free market is the same sort of interference that has wrecked havok on what was previously a very effective system of capitalism. It wasn't until social concepts of artificial fairness and levelling of the playing field intervened that the system began to collapse. Educate yourself on economic history and theory if this seems unfamiliar to you. Capitalism suceeds(and has been the only long term model to do so) only when it is a pure system free from outside interference. Hybrids fail spectacularly as evidenced by recent history.

     

    http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-A-Treatise-Economics-ebook/dp/B0084RU67S/ref=sr_1_1_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337552073&sr=1-1/wwwcapitalisnet

    http://www.amazon.com/Financial-Crisis-Free-Market-ebook/dp/B008XKXAAG/ref=pd_sim_b_4

    http://www.amazon.com/Didnt-Have-This-Unnecessary-ebook/dp/B00AWGE6MU/ref=pd_sim_b_7

     

    image
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