Originally posted by DrunkWolf honestly after star wars i didnt think people would even pre order a game ever again. but i guess some dont learn.
as much as i disliked swtor i still feel i got my moneys worth.. honestly i find it hard to NOT get your moneys worth from a MMO when compared to single player games
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Paid head starts are kind of unfair in my book. Maybe if they were $10 and you got something like cash shop credit or items, then yes it's acceptable. $200 bucks, or $50? No way, that's just wrong to charge for a free to play game and give the player what I think is $20 bucks worth of goods.
Paying before getting a product is a bad trend. It limits your control as a consumer and opens you up to be taken advantage of.
Its like financing in todays economy. Everybody and their dog want you to owe them money. You might say this limits their control except they have lawyers writing the fine print for any circumstance where you default.
This also reminds me of the gun debate taking place in American politics. Bearing Arms used to be a right, now its getting downgraded to a priviledge you need permission to exercise. Its being compared to driving a car (so need insurance) on public roads wich is not a right. Oh well.
Changing the rules of the game is really only possible if dolts willingly buy into the dogma behind it.
Trends like this are at the whim of the masses. If ppl will buy foundations then it could become the norm.
I personally think founders packs are a great idea.
They're basically just pre-ordering the game but paying upfront. Other than that, how are they any different? If I pre-order a game, pay for it, receive it and it's complete garbage, is it any different than buying a founder pack, I get into a beta (which is a usual feature of a founders pack now) and it's garbage.. well, both games sucked.
My control is basically unchanged really. I either buy the game or I don't - in actuality I have a little more control now with a founders pack because I can choose to buy it even earlier if I wish.
If I buy a game 3 months after it comes out, 3 months before it comes out or right on the release date I will still have been potentially taken advantage of regardless of WHEN I bought it, since well, I still bought it and it sucked.
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by DrunkWolf honestly after star wars i didnt think people would even pre order a game ever again. but i guess some dont learn.
as much as i disliked swtor i still feel i got my moneys worth.. honestly i find it hard to NOT get your moneys worth from a MMO when compared to single player games
Also I agree with that. I got a few hundred hours out of SWTOR, most of which I enjoyed. More than I ever got out of Farcry 3 or Dead Space 3. All 3 were good purchases.
This trend has GOT to stop. Selling weekend, or closed beta access? What? It blows my mind that game pre-orders exist, especially 1 to 1.5 years out, and people buy them. Who would buy a product that doesn't even come out for over a year? Seriously, what's wrong with people?
As far as Founder's packs, to me, this is saying, "Hey, our game isn't done yet, but fund our development, and beta test (or alpha test) our game, and we'll even let you PAY for it!"
You can't make 50-80k as a SQA analyst, or engineer. But let's pay THEM to "let" us test their game. What?
Many games stress test behind the scenes, and even gather all sorts or performance data from you, and you pay them to help test their software. This seems ass-backwards to me, especially as a principal software engineer.
I understand some people think they that are making a game they want better by beta testing, but paying for it? Some of these founder packs are $200!!!! For what, virtual items, and only weekend play time like Neverwinter? I'm the Firefall beta, and it's not even a beta. There's a ton of game content that isn't in the game yet. Sorry, but by definition, that makes in an alpha.
Are people really THIS desperate to play a game?
The worst thing to me is not even playing the game once, and then shelling out $200 on a founders pack. Without even knowing if you like the game or not? Again, what??
Also, I'm not trolling. Just posting an opinion. I really think this is a terrible trend.
Say you're a game dev...who would you rather have beta testing your game. They guy that would never spend a dime on your game or the guy willing to spend $200 on a founders pack ?
Who's going to give better feedback on what they'd like in the game ?
Paying before getting a product is a bad trend. It limits your control as a consumer and opens you up to be taken advantage of.
Its like financing in todays economy. Everybody and their dog want you to owe them money. You might say this limits their control except they have lawyers writing the fine print for any circumstance where you default.
This also reminds me of the gun debate taking place in American politics. Bearing Arms used to be a right, now its getting downgraded to a priviledge you need permission to exercise. Its being compared to driving a car (so need insurance) on public roads wich is not a right. Oh well.
Changing the rules of the game is really only possible if dolts willingly buy into the dogma behind it.
Trends like this are at the whim of the masses. If ppl will buy foundations then it could become the norm.
I personally think founders packs are a great idea.
They're basically just pre-ordering the game but paying upfront. Other than that, how are they any different? If I pre-order a game, pay for it, receive it and it's complete garbage, is it any different than buying a founder pack, I get into a beta (which is a usual feature of a founders pack now) and it's garbage.. well, both games sucked.
My control is basically unchanged really. I either buy the game or I don't - in actuality I have a little more control now with a founders pack because I can choose to buy it even earlier if I wish.
If I buy a game 3 months after it comes out, 3 months before it comes out or right on the release date I will still have been potentially taken advantage of regardless of WHEN I bought it, since well, I still bought it and it sucked.
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by DrunkWolf honestly after star wars i didnt think people would even pre order a game ever again. but i guess some dont learn.
as much as i disliked swtor i still feel i got my moneys worth.. honestly i find it hard to NOT get your moneys worth from a MMO when compared to single player games
Also I agree with that. I got a few hundred hours out of SWTOR, most of which I enjoyed. More than I ever got out of Farcry 3 or Dead Space 3. All 3 were good purchases.
agreed don't see how it is really any differn't than pre-ordering a collectors edition for any game.. at least MMOs you usually can get a good beta test in before buying the game.. many single players don't even have a demo or if they do its a very limited one
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Hey, if people want to pay, they can pay. Telling gamers to stop paying for founders packs to help fund a game is like telling humanitarians with exhorbitant amounts of money to stop giving to charities to feed the less forutnate: they both spend money on these kinds of things because they want to contribute. Besides, its either founders packs or lockboxes (or founders packs and delayed lockboxes), so pick your poison.
Originally posted by Digirono What's wrong with people paying for a game they have either enjoyed, or think they're going to enjoy it so they throw money at it? Firefall for example, the majority of people I have talked with in-game about the "$100.00 Commander pack" for the beta are not only happy that they spent the money on it, but are still having fun in it. Champions Online Lifetime sub is another thing, I think most people that bought it think they got their moneys worth. It's comes down to "If you enjoy this game, are you willing to give them money, and if so how much". I don't mind throwing money at a game if I like the concept, enjoy playing it, and think that I can get my moneys worth of "Entertaining gameplay". So, no...please -don't- stop buying "Founder's Packs" if you enjoy a game and or think you will get your moneys worth in that game.
This. I was playing Firefall before I had purchased any sort of founder pack, I actually only ended up buying the 20 dollar one but still, I felt like I enjoyed the game enough to support the company.
Who cares if someone is paying for something they may or may not enjoy. Don't do it if you don't want to. If you know a game is coming out in a year or two and don't mind waiting and don't want to pay for beta access then don't. Just wait for the release and play it then. It doesn't affect the company whatsoever if you are or are not in the beta they are just opening that for the people that would like to play it early and try it out or test their game.
Say you're a game dev...who would you rather have beta testing your game. They guy that would never spend a dime on your game or the guy willing to spend $200 on a founders pack ?
Who's going to give better feedback on what they'd like in the game ?
very good point as many treat free closed betas as nothing more than free previews
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Good thing the Wright brothers invested in that first airplane.
Steve Jobs invested in the first computer designed for home use.
Billions were invested in going to the moon.
All ideas with no guarantee of success. Of course, a video game is no where near the importance of the above but it is the same concept. Folks like to invest in things they want to see succeed regardless if you think it is foolish or not.
Yeah it comes to that most likely some amount of the money people pay into the packs will go to placing or developing content in the future for the game, as well as allowing them keep the game enjoyable for the players as it will stay very profitable. If people wnat to pay for the founder packs that is their choice, and the company should have it as an option for actually allowing players to both support a game or company they are enjoying. Also i would rather have te input of a player that has an invested interest in the game (bought items, packs), over someone that has no investment in the game an could care much less as they lose nothing by it gettiing worse or betters since they can move on with no losses compared to the person that invested in it.
I would not say a game is not as big an importance as any of those listed, since it is something fr enjoyment an entertainment, and so is of huge importance to the person playing it or investing in it. If you look at history entertainment an enjoyment of activities has been very important both as a form of job employment, as well as stress release, and to as a means of keeping the masses docile (which is extremely important to governing bodies as their rule hinges on the masses being happy, and if not they might end up overthrown or worse.). So in ways you could say games are extremely important , as a method of culling, and subdueing the public into being docile an controlable via being very happy an entertained.
Games developers aren't charitable organizations, and they will try and make money however they see fit. A lot of players enjoy getting into a game early or getting special pets etc., so the developers are just meeting that demand.
Did I miss the part where the Publisher forces you to buy a founder's pack to play?
There are still Press, Friend Invite, Random Invites into beta events. The game still releases and if you aren't a founder, you still get to play.
What's the difference - some people feel comfortable paying up front, or paying for beta access. No big deal. It's their money and they can do whatever they want with it - just like your money is yours, and you can choose not to buy a founder's pack if you so choose.
People are free to do whatever they want with their own money.
Whats really bothering you? That you cant play because you didnt pay them?
Are they incentivising an upfront cash boost? Yes. But really, why does it matter to you? You missed out on a beta weekend or two. It isnt the end of the world, and you can see all the details from other players now.
Its like the people that are 'investing' in Mortal Online, would I do it? No. But what right do I have to tell someone else what is a worthy use of their own money? None.
Did I miss the part where the Publisher forces you to buy a founder's pack to play?
There are still Press, Friend Invite, Random Invites into beta events. The game still releases and if you aren't a founder, you still get to play.
What's the difference - some people feel comfortable paying up front, or paying for beta access. No big deal. It's their money and they can do whatever they want with it - just like your money is yours, and you can choose not to buy a founder's pack if you so choose.
Dude i completely agree with you. people work hard to earn there money and if the feel like paying to be a founder the who are we to tell them no..
Good thing the Wright brothers invested in that first airplane.
Steve Jobs invested in the first computer designed for home use.
Billions were invested in going to the moon.
All ideas with no guarantee of success. Of course, a video game is no where near the importance of the above but it is the same concept. Folks like to invest in things they want to see succeed regardless if you think it is foolish or not.
You might be missing the most important part of your point.
When folks invest in something they want to see it succeed even more. Those in a position to control the outcome (devs) are the ones who need the motivating. If you pay them upfront incentive is gone. (atleast for them, the only ones with incentive left-gamers- have no control of how good the game actually ends up)
Foundations take away devs incentive and investment. They are developing on someone elses dime, not their own.
If their own success/welfare isnt on the line they will make a worse product.
Good thing the Wright brothers invested in that first airplane.
Steve Jobs invested in the first computer designed for home use.
Billions were invested in going to the moon.
All ideas with no guarantee of success. Of course, a video game is no where near the importance of the above but it is the same concept. Folks like to invest in things they want to see succeed regardless if you think it is foolish or not.
You might be missing the most important part of your point.
When folks invest in something they want to see it succeed even more. Those in a position to control the outcome (devs) are the ones who need the motivating. If you pay them upfront incentive is gone. (atleast for them, the only ones with incentive left-gamers- have no control of how good the game actually ends up)
Foundations take away devs incentive and investment. They are developing on someone elses dime, not their own.
If their own success/welfare isnt on the line they will make a worse product.
That is simply human nature.
Investors rarely have any control over investments. They are investing money or resources into a project which they think will give decent returns, either in profit or in a product they have an interest in.
Games are no different. If players have a vested interest in seeing a game that they like succeed, they are happy to pay these founders fees.
People are free to do whatever they want with their own money.
Whats really bothering you? That you cant play because you didnt pay them?
Are they incentivising an upfront cash boost? Yes. But really, why does it matter to you? You missed out on a beta weekend or two. It isnt the end of the world, and you can see all the details from other players now.
Its like the people that are 'investing' in Mortal Online, would I do it? No. But what right do I have to tell someone else what is a worthy use of their own money? None.
You have a right to tell them how to spend their money. Its called free speech.
You have a right to criticize others for making bad decisions.
Seeing as how devs respond to community behavior, everyone has an invested interest in how others are willing to pay. If 99% of the population is willing to p2w you have a right to tell them its dumb/stupid/whatever. Not just a free speech right, but because it impacts you what they do with their money.
Its a community driven industry. What 1 person does effects us all. I get the "live and let live" philosophy when it comes to $, you should try applying it to others speech.
For one the selling of beta access has been a very long tradition. It use to be a given for buying a CE of a game. Those games were usually not F2P though. I can not see paying $200 for founders pack for a f2p game. On the other side of that if people want to pay that for a f2p game they never played it is their money and their choice.
Good thing the Wright brothers invested in that first airplane.
Steve Jobs invested in the first computer designed for home use.
Billions were invested in going to the moon.
All ideas with no guarantee of success. Of course, a video game is no where near the importance of the above but it is the same concept. Folks like to invest in things they want to see succeed regardless if you think it is foolish or not.
Those all had a brilliant return on investment. $200 for a game that you might play for a year, which by the way is a free to play game - I don't think is a good return.
I think people are more urked about the precedent that's being set and accepted here. Paying for early access and paying ridiculous amounts to get into a free to play game.
People are free to do whatever they want with their own money.
Whats really bothering you? That you cant play because you didnt pay them?
Are they incentivising an upfront cash boost? Yes. But really, why does it matter to you? You missed out on a beta weekend or two. It isnt the end of the world, and you can see all the details from other players now.
Its like the people that are 'investing' in Mortal Online, would I do it? No. But what right do I have to tell someone else what is a worthy use of their own money? None.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
as much as i disliked swtor i still feel i got my moneys worth.. honestly i find it hard to NOT get your moneys worth from a MMO when compared to single player games
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I personally think founders packs are a great idea.
They're basically just pre-ordering the game but paying upfront. Other than that, how are they any different? If I pre-order a game, pay for it, receive it and it's complete garbage, is it any different than buying a founder pack, I get into a beta (which is a usual feature of a founders pack now) and it's garbage.. well, both games sucked.
My control is basically unchanged really. I either buy the game or I don't - in actuality I have a little more control now with a founders pack because I can choose to buy it even earlier if I wish.
If I buy a game 3 months after it comes out, 3 months before it comes out or right on the release date I will still have been potentially taken advantage of regardless of WHEN I bought it, since well, I still bought it and it sucked.
Also I agree with that. I got a few hundred hours out of SWTOR, most of which I enjoyed. More than I ever got out of Farcry 3 or Dead Space 3. All 3 were good purchases.
Say you're a game dev...who would you rather have beta testing your game. They guy that would never spend a dime on your game or the guy willing to spend $200 on a founders pack ?
Who's going to give better feedback on what they'd like in the game ?
agreed don't see how it is really any differn't than pre-ordering a collectors edition for any game.. at least MMOs you usually can get a good beta test in before buying the game.. many single players don't even have a demo or if they do its a very limited one
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
This. I was playing Firefall before I had purchased any sort of founder pack, I actually only ended up buying the 20 dollar one but still, I felt like I enjoyed the game enough to support the company.
Who cares if someone is paying for something they may or may not enjoy. Don't do it if you don't want to. If you know a game is coming out in a year or two and don't mind waiting and don't want to pay for beta access then don't. Just wait for the release and play it then. It doesn't affect the company whatsoever if you are or are not in the beta they are just opening that for the people that would like to play it early and try it out or test their game.
very good point as many treat free closed betas as nothing more than free previews
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Good thing the Wright brothers invested in that first airplane.
Steve Jobs invested in the first computer designed for home use.
Billions were invested in going to the moon.
All ideas with no guarantee of success. Of course, a video game is no where near the importance of the above but it is the same concept. Folks like to invest in things they want to see succeed regardless if you think it is foolish or not.
Yeah it comes to that most likely some amount of the money people pay into the packs will go to placing or developing content in the future for the game, as well as allowing them keep the game enjoyable for the players as it will stay very profitable. If people wnat to pay for the founder packs that is their choice, and the company should have it as an option for actually allowing players to both support a game or company they are enjoying. Also i would rather have te input of a player that has an invested interest in the game (bought items, packs), over someone that has no investment in the game an could care much less as they lose nothing by it gettiing worse or betters since they can move on with no losses compared to the person that invested in it.
I would not say a game is not as big an importance as any of those listed, since it is something fr enjoyment an entertainment, and so is of huge importance to the person playing it or investing in it. If you look at history entertainment an enjoyment of activities has been very important both as a form of job employment, as well as stress release, and to as a means of keeping the masses docile (which is extremely important to governing bodies as their rule hinges on the masses being happy, and if not they might end up overthrown or worse.). So in ways you could say games are extremely important , as a method of culling, and subdueing the public into being docile an controlable via being very happy an entertained.
Don't buy them if you don't like it.
Games developers aren't charitable organizations, and they will try and make money however they see fit. A lot of players enjoy getting into a game early or getting special pets etc., so the developers are just meeting that demand.
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
Did I miss the part where the Publisher forces you to buy a founder's pack to play?
There are still Press, Friend Invite, Random Invites into beta events. The game still releases and if you aren't a founder, you still get to play.
What's the difference - some people feel comfortable paying up front, or paying for beta access. No big deal. It's their money and they can do whatever they want with it - just like your money is yours, and you can choose not to buy a founder's pack if you so choose.
People are free to do whatever they want with their own money.
Whats really bothering you? That you cant play because you didnt pay them?
Are they incentivising an upfront cash boost? Yes. But really, why does it matter to you? You missed out on a beta weekend or two. It isnt the end of the world, and you can see all the details from other players now.
Its like the people that are 'investing' in Mortal Online, would I do it? No. But what right do I have to tell someone else what is a worthy use of their own money? None.
Dude i completely agree with you. people work hard to earn there money and if the feel like paying to be a founder the who are we to tell them no..
You might be missing the most important part of your point.
When folks invest in something they want to see it succeed even more. Those in a position to control the outcome (devs) are the ones who need the motivating. If you pay them upfront incentive is gone. (atleast for them, the only ones with incentive left-gamers- have no control of how good the game actually ends up)
Foundations take away devs incentive and investment. They are developing on someone elses dime, not their own.
If their own success/welfare isnt on the line they will make a worse product.
That is simply human nature.
I firmly believe people should spend money on what makes them happy.
What would make me happy is sending me MONEY!!!
Life is Short, Read a Book.
Investors rarely have any control over investments. They are investing money or resources into a project which they think will give decent returns, either in profit or in a product they have an interest in.
Games are no different. If players have a vested interest in seeing a game that they like succeed, they are happy to pay these founders fees.
You have a right to tell them how to spend their money. Its called free speech.
You have a right to criticize others for making bad decisions.
Seeing as how devs respond to community behavior, everyone has an invested interest in how others are willing to pay. If 99% of the population is willing to p2w you have a right to tell them its dumb/stupid/whatever. Not just a free speech right, but because it impacts you what they do with their money.
Its a community driven industry. What 1 person does effects us all. I get the "live and let live" philosophy when it comes to $, you should try applying it to others speech.
For one the selling of beta access has been a very long tradition. It use to be a given for buying a CE of a game. Those games were usually not F2P though. I can not see paying $200 for founders pack for a f2p game. On the other side of that if people want to pay that for a f2p game they never played it is their money and their choice.
Those all had a brilliant return on investment. $200 for a game that you might play for a year, which by the way is a free to play game - I don't think is a good return.
I think people are more urked about the precedent that's being set and accepted here. Paying for early access and paying ridiculous amounts to get into a free to play game.
I personally like how Cryptic is selling it. Mainly, you can buy ALL of this, valued at $549.99 or whatever, for only $199.99!
Put a few things in a pack and randomly value it at 2x+ what they're asking. Yeah. Whatever. lol
Most people don't care.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"