I think the problem that TESO has is the problem that War, AoC, SWTOR, TERA and GW2 had: the MMO genre is stagnating under a pile of games that do broadly the same things, without any evolution. We've been playing "the MMO formula" for the last decade; very little has changed. Yes, it's got smoother, it's easier to access, and it's got more content to it, but it's all broadly the same from game to game.
If I can run an instance and get good gear in WoW, why would I switch to a game that lets me run an instance and get good gear?
TERA and GW2 attempted to make this switch more paletable by altering the combat system, but it didn't work. Players still largely responded to the "come and play our game, where you can do the same things you've been doing in the other MMO you've been playing" with a resounding, "NO." That isn't to say they're bad games (they aren't), and is - as far as I'm concerned - and indication that someone, somewhere needs to move things along a bit. The fact that ArenaNet "dipped their toes" in to diversifying and/or moving away from the formula... is telling. They didn't go all the way however, and ended up banking on the established nonsense when really they should have done MORE to move away from it.
So yeah... I think TESO's major problem is that it is the same MMO we've all played before. Beyond the shallow alterations that come with a change of setting, it is just WoW. And the altered combat system won't make it any more paletable, just like an alternative combat system didn't make GW2 and TERA more paletable.
TESO's problem is the genre's problem: a totaly lack of bravery, creativity and diversity.
And in a year... I will be back to say I told you so ^^
This sounds a lot like genre burnout to me.
Asking for revolutionary sweeping changes to the MMO genre is like asking for ID Software to radically innovate and change the FPS genre.. simply isn't gonna happen.
The formulas have all been done, the systems have all been done and the ideas have all been tried. GW2's "no trinity" thing wasn't new, we had that back in SWG.
What you see is what you get really.. I for one just want to see a solid game, with superior tried/tested systems that delivers great content and regular updates. I haven't seen an MMO deliver that for a long time hence why I still return to WoW and Rift periodically.
Tends to not happen often at all tbh, progression tends to happen by evolution rather than revolution
Wrote this in previous post but might get lost in the mass posting after ....
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Just finished watching
Wow this guy seems excited and everything he is talking about is what I wanted in an online version. hmmm looks like all the released info (prior this video are not doing the game justice thats for sure), but his information is correct (which hes seems very honest about) I will definitly switch and try the game. Thou I will still pass on beta, to much info wanted, however definitly am more interested now ! Thnx for the link!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Wrote this in previous post but might get lost in the mass posting after ....
----------------------------
Just finished watching
Wow this guy seems excited and everything he is talking about is what I wanted in an online version. hmmm looks like all the released info (prior this video are not doing the game justice thats for sure), but his information is correct (which hes seems very honest about) I will definitly switch and try the game. Thou I will still pass on beta, to much info wanted, however definitly am more interested now ! Thnx for the link!
I think the problem that TESO has is the problem that War, AoC, SWTOR, TERA and GW2 had: the MMO genre is stagnating under a pile of games that do broadly the same things, without any evolution. We've been playing "the MMO formula" for the last decade; very little has changed. Yes, it's got smoother, it's easier to access, and it's got more content to it, but it's all broadly the same from game to game.
If I can run an instance and get good gear in WoW, why would I switch to a game that lets me run an instance and get good gear?
TERA and GW2 attempted to make this switch more paletable by altering the combat system, but it didn't work. Players still largely responded to the "come and play our game, where you can do the same things you've been doing in the other MMO you've been playing" with a resounding, "NO." That isn't to say they're bad games (they aren't), and is - as far as I'm concerned - and indication that someone, somewhere needs to move things along a bit. The fact that ArenaNet "dipped their toes" in to diversifying and/or moving away from the formula... is telling. They didn't go all the way however, and ended up banking on the established nonsense when really they should have done MORE to move away from it.
So yeah... I think TESO's major problem is that it is the same MMO we've all played before. Beyond the shallow alterations that come with a change of setting, it is just WoW. And the altered combat system won't make it any more paletable, just like an alternative combat system didn't make GW2 and TERA more paletable.
TESO's problem is the genre's problem: a totaly lack of bravery, creativity and diversity.
And in a year... I will be back to say I told you so ^^
This sounds a lot like genre burnout to me.
Asking for revolutionary sweeping changes to the MMO genre is like asking for ID Software to radically innovate and change the FPS genre.. simply isn't gonna happen.
The formulas have all been done, the systems have all been done and the ideas have all been tried. GW2's "no trinity" thing wasn't new, we had that back in SWG.
What you see is what you get really.. I for one just want to see a solid game, with superior tried/tested systems that delivers great content and regular updates. I haven't seen an MMO deliver that for a long time hence why I still return to WoW and Rift periodically.
I'm not the only one experiencing it however. Lots of people are expressing the same concerns.
ID Software HAVE radically innovated on the FPS/TPS genre, as has Infinity Ward, Bungie, Bioware and Epic. Compare Gear of Wars to Quake, or Crysis to Doom; the genre is a LOT different now. The basic "have gun, will shoot" gameplay is never going to go away or change, but the meat on those bones has changed significantly over the years. Compare an FPS now to an FPS a decade ago, and you will - unless you simply choose not to - be able to see a marked shift in their presentation. The same is true of the RPG genre, the strategy genre, the action genre, etc, etc.
I'm not suggesting that the basic components of what "makes" an MMO should change. However compare UO to WoW. They are vastly different games. Over the last decade however very little has changed. Players ask for new content, they get a new raid dungeon or a new instance or 10 new levels. Every game has its innovation, a single element that adds something (either bad or good) to the mix, but they still entirely rely on the same content to keep us interested. The "have spells, will cast" component of the MMO isn't going to change - I'm not expecting it to - but I AM expecting everything else to change... because... well... look at other genres and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I'm not suggesting that raids should go away, or instances, or PvP. I'm saying that the way they are presented, the motivators for us to do them, can - and should - change. And they have not.
Originally posted by Legere
Originally posted by dotdotdash
I think the problem that TESO has is the problem that War, AoC, SWTOR, TERA and GW2 had: the MMO genre is stagnating under a pile of games that do broadly the same things, without any evolution. We've been playing "the MMO formula" for the last decade; very little has changed. Yes, it's got smoother, it's easier to access, and it's got more content to it, but it's all broadly the same from game to game.
If I can run an instance and get good gear in WoW, why would I switch to a game that lets me run an instance and get good gear?
TERA and GW2 attempted to make this switch more paletable by altering the combat system, but it didn't work. Players still largely responded to the "come and play our game, where you can do the same things you've been doing in the other MMO you've been playing" with a resounding, "NO." That isn't to say they're bad games (they aren't), and is - as far as I'm concerned - and indication that someone, somewhere needs to move things along a bit. The fact that ArenaNet "dipped their toes" in to diversifying and/or moving away from the formula... is telling. They didn't go all the way however, and ended up banking on the established nonsense when really they should have done MORE to move away from it.
So yeah... I think TESO's major problem is that it is the same MMO we've all played before. Beyond the shallow alterations that come with a change of setting, it is just WoW. And the altered combat system won't make it any more paletable, just like an alternative combat system didn't make GW2 and TERA more paletable.
TESO's problem is the genre's problem: a totaly lack of bravery, creativity and diversity.
And in a year... I will be back to say I told you so ^^
i think the old saying, dont fix it if it aint broken, holds very true to mmorpg's...
at the core, keep what we knows works well, and refine it and add some real sexy graphics.
skyrim gave us a world with (imho) better graphics than any other rpg to date .. and their combat is OK - i like the first person style of it.
while playing through skyrim i couldnt help but think the game would be way more awesome if it had multiplayer and dungeons tailored to that - and i think thats exactly the aim of ESO
That saying is stupid, and you're misapplying it, because I'm not asking for them to "fix" anything.
I'm suggesting that MMOs are broadly appealing as a concept - I enjoy them from time to time. What I do not enjoy is playing the same style of content for over a decade. That's not fun. It's not broken, but it's not enjoyable for a lot of people.
Doing what you suggested: keeping it the same but improving the graphics. That's what every MMO developers has done since Everquest. It worked for Blizzard, and then failed to work for everyone else. Lots and lots of developers have done that, and then just gone "oh crap, we've only got 100k players left after 3 months." And then they all went F2P or Freemium. When you have a product that no one wants to buy, and you have to end up giving it away for free, that's... well... if that happened to me, I'd be livid.
Also, that's not just what TESO is doing. TESO is bringing in a whole sea of things that TES never had or needed, and they're also altering the basic formula of a TES game not JUST to fit in to an MMO setting, but also to allow them to present TES as an MMO. They're compramising on the integrity of the franchise to fit it into the service model that an MMO demands. It's like making 45-minute TV episodes instead of 1-hour episodes to allow for advertising; 1 hour would be better, you could get more done, but you HAVE to account for the adverts BEFORE you care about the actual content or integrity of the show.
Fact that mmo is 10 year old genre doesnt mean that they cant do game that is interesting to all players with inovations. You cant reinvent genre but you can add freshness like one you can see in modern FPSs. FPS is not reinvented, but refreshed...
I know that 90% of players are casual ones, i am too. I cant play 24/7, but i have nothing against some casual PvP, exploring other faction lands and being ganked because im there sticking my nose where i should not.
--------------------> Would you like some cheese with that whine?
I would say valve are the innovaters of the fps genre.
Lethal combat - counterstrike Story - half life Realistic Npcs, story taken even further - hl2 4 player coop - l4d Puzzles rather than killing stuff - portal
Originally posted by ShakyMo I would say valve are the innovaters of the fps genre.
Lethal combat - counterstrike Story - half life Realistic Npcs, story taken even further - hl2 4 player coop - l4d Puzzles rather than killing stuff - portal
Counterstrike was a solo mod guy before valve bought the rights, half-life was a good (Scripted) story thats the innovation. l4d, innovative and portal for sure. TF2 was a rehash and so on. Out of all of it valve I give credit for in the innovations under, story,co-op and puzzles along with the never mentioned online store. They had some innovations but not all really the fps thing comes from before wolfinstien and stories before that. It's all perspective at this point, innovations from generation to generation. Meh I remember black and white tv's and no such thing as microwaves. lol
As far as this title goes, after seeing the links others have provided, my stance on this game has changed. There are from those vids of people who got "hands on" actually parts of this game (those that are important to me) being done just like most if not all of the series of Elderscrolls, in the end that's what I wanted,.bravo to the devs on delivery, however their promotions are not convering these aspects, they should really look at these vids and take notice.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
About the hero-thing... I remember watching a video where a dev said something about you being treated differently if you for example helped npcs with a werewolf problem. Then they would talk to you as a savior or something like that. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.
If that's the type of "heroism" you are after, it is in game. But yeah I see your point there - everyone who does the same quest, is treated like a savior too, I assume. Don't really know how you could stand out in an mmorpg which doesn't want rank it's players in class A and class B players.
Originally posted by ShakyMo I would say valve are the innovaters of the fps genre.
Lethal combat - counterstrike Story - half life Realistic Npcs, story taken even further - hl2 4 player coop - l4d Puzzles rather than killing stuff - portal
Counterstrike was a solo mod guy before valve bought the rights, half-life was a good (Scripted) story thats the innovation. l4d, innovative and portal for sure. TF2 was a rehash and so on. Out of all of it valve I give credit for in the innovations under, story,co-op and puzzles along with the never mentioned online store. They had some innovations but not all really the fps thing comes from before wolfinstien and stories before that. It's all perspective at this point, innovations from generation to generation. Meh I remember black and white tv's and no such thing as microwaves. lol
As far as this title goes, after seeing the links others have provided, my stance on this game has changed. There are from those vids of people who got "hands on" actually parts of this game (those that are important to me) being done just like most if not all of the series of Elderscrolls, in the end that's what I wanted,.bravo to the devs on delivery, however their promotions are not convering these aspects, they should really look at these vids and take notice.
Its not that Valve invented FPS but little things that made those games hits, nowdays its really hard to invent something brand new inside genre limitations. So MMORPG will allways be similar to some older previous games, but developer have task (not an easy one) to take all good from older games + invent something new... Blizz did that as i remember right.
there is one nice video that explains facts we know so far about TESO, all other stuff is wild guess.
--------------------> Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Comments
Tends to not happen often at all tbh, progression tends to happen by evolution rather than revolution
Wrote this in previous post but might get lost in the mass posting after
....
----------------------------
Just finished watching
Wow this guy seems excited and everything he is talking about is what I wanted in an online version. hmmm looks like all the released info (prior this video are not doing the game justice thats for sure), but his information is correct (which hes seems very honest about) I will definitly switch and try the game. Thou I will still pass on beta, to much info wanted, however definitly am more interested now ! Thnx for the link!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
This is worth a read if you missed it:
http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=30900&storypage=1
And yeah, the glory days of innovation are over sadly.. Though there are still emerging genres which is fun. (Minecraft and DayZ)
Yeah I would include the walking dead (my personal goty last year) and heavy rain on there too
They've been developing the game since 2007. That's longer than most mmo's have in development.
Also, people should watch this.
Fact that mmo is 10 year old genre doesnt mean that they cant do game that is interesting to all players with inovations. You cant reinvent genre but you can add freshness like one you can see in modern FPSs. FPS is not reinvented, but refreshed...
I know that 90% of players are casual ones, i am too. I cant play 24/7, but i have nothing against some casual PvP, exploring other faction lands and being ganked because im there sticking my nose where i should not.
-------------------->
Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Lethal combat - counterstrike
Story - half life
Realistic Npcs, story taken even further - hl2
4 player coop - l4d
Puzzles rather than killing stuff - portal
Counterstrike was a solo mod guy before valve bought the rights, half-life was a good (Scripted) story thats the innovation. l4d, innovative and portal for sure. TF2 was a rehash and so on. Out of all of it valve I give credit for in the innovations under, story,co-op and puzzles along with the never mentioned online store. They had some innovations but not all
really the fps thing comes from before wolfinstien and stories before that. It's all perspective at this point, innovations from generation to generation. Meh I remember black and white tv's and no such thing as microwaves. lol
As far as this title goes, after seeing the links others have provided, my stance on this game has changed. There are from those vids of people who got "hands on" actually parts of this game (those that are important to me) being done just like most if not all of the series of Elderscrolls, in the end that's what I wanted,.bravo to the devs on delivery, however their promotions are not convering these aspects, they should really look at these vids and take notice.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
About the hero-thing... I remember watching a video where a dev said something about you being treated differently if you for example helped npcs with a werewolf problem. Then they would talk to you as a savior or something like that. Just like in Oblivion and Skyrim.
If that's the type of "heroism" you are after, it is in game. But yeah I see your point there - everyone who does the same quest, is treated like a savior too, I assume. Don't really know how you could stand out in an mmorpg which doesn't want rank it's players in class A and class B players.
Its not that Valve invented FPS but little things that made those games hits, nowdays its really hard to invent something brand new inside genre limitations. So MMORPG will allways be similar to some older previous games, but developer have task (not an easy one) to take all good from older games + invent something new... Blizz did that as i remember right.
there is one nice video
that explains facts we know so far about TESO, all other stuff is wild guess.
-------------------->
Would you like some cheese with that whine?