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After GW2 do you want the holy trio back?

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  • AzrileAzrile Houston, MDPosts: 2,582Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Get rid of classes all together.  Allow me to make a character and give me skill points that I can put wherever I want.  Allowing me to be a stealthy, fire-wielding, mage-type warrior.

    GW2 went half way.  Someone else needs to bring it full circle.

    Darkfall. In that game you used to be able to be Master of All. It was considered boring as everyone could do everything, hence why they are rehauling it now.

    AC 1 had a better approach. There you had a set number of skill points and you could then build whatever character you wanted but since there was a limit on skill points, you could not be Master of All.

    So it has been done but for some reason class based MMO's are dominating and have been since the rise of EQ 1. Probably such a system is much easier for the devs. to balance.

    UO had a nice system, you had dozens of possible skills you could raise to 100,  but only 700 points total.  But what happened is the devs kinda merged skills together so that like 500 or even 600 skillpoints had to be used in harmony or you were severly gimped.  You took Magery to cast spells, then you had to take meditation to regain mana, then you had to take Evaluate magic to make your spells hit hard, then you had to take wrestling or else you were interrupted all the time. (can´t remember precisely, it has been a long long time).

    So at the end of the day you had   warrior, mage, tamer, bard..  each with a few skillpoints left over to dable in something else.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,459Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aSynchro

    Lets check where the Trinity is useful:

    _ Leveling : NO. Why level as tank or healer when you can just dps all the way to end game ? Only useful for shorter dungeon queue.

    _ Quest: NO. Have you try to do WoW dailies as a healer ? Ah ah!

    _ PvP: NO. Tank can't tank players, so it's only a dps with more health but half the damage. As for Healers, well a battleground with zero healers or with same amount of healers in both team don't really change the whole deal.

    _ Dungeon : Not really. At first maybe, but with good gear/cc or skilled players you can do it without healer or without tank.

    _ Raids: YES/Maybe. For classic tank&spank fights. But you can imagine lots of fights that would works without tanks and healers. Just replace non-avoidable damages with avoidable-if-you-move-fast-enought damages and here you are.

    In fact, check WoW raids : lots of encounters don't really need the Trinity. Alysrazor in Fireland has fixed aggro mechanism; same for Garalon in Heart of Fear. Ultraxion in DS only need people to press button at the good time, and what about the vehicule fights in Ulduar, the gunship in Icecrown, the Sha in the last Terrace raid etc etc. Usualy tanks have a very small role. As for healers, they are only usefull because there are non-avoidable damages.

     

    I'd also like to point that trinity prevents players from being together.  What do you prefer to hear :

    Ultima Online, EVE, Guild Wars 2: "hey, sure: join us and lets have fun together!"

    or :

    Trinity based MMORPG: "mmh, sorry: we only need a tank/healer now..."

    ?

    I think we need to get out of the WoW mindset.

    Leveling, there have been games where just being dps didn't cut it in difficult dungoens. Since Lineage 2 is my largest experience I'll use that.

    leveling, Areas like Forge of the gods and AoE groups in one of the temples definitley gave good xp and rewards but required tanks and healers. The issue in that game was that buffers were more like batteries than someone an actual player wanted to play. I also recall some of my best duos/ttrios requing a healer/recharger to keep the party gowing. Allowing for DD's and healers to be extra squishy did help in this regard.

    quest: don't care about wow and quests are usually things that require one player. There were quests in Lineage 2 (the game had few quests) that required a group. you just had to have one. Especially for the class quests as there were tough bosses involved. But I'm not partial to games that have ridiculous quests sending you to kill 10 of someting. I'd rather just hang out in the area and kill mobs.

    pvp - again, I suppose we have to get out of the wow mindset. In Aion and Tera a tank can tank players. They can draw the player to them. I recall fighting a tank as a Sorcerer in Aion and accidentally allowed him to get close enough to draw me in. I went down pretty quickly.

    Dungeon - just make it so that good gear is only part of the equation. Just because "other" games allow for good gear to win the day doesn't mean all games have to have that. I will say that I'm more partial to these new skill based games where one can take on harder dungeons with a more diverse group but having a tank or healer can help.

    And again you use WoW. I think if developers move away from "WoW" and create encounters where players can have different types of groups but where having a healer or tank makes things easier, it could be more interesting.

    As I've said, I'm for a "soft" trinity. Allowing for players to embody different classes/playstyles but allow for a bit more diversity.

    Who is to say the Tank has to do "no" damage? Maybe the tank does slower damage but takes larger chunks? Maybe magic users do incredible damage but are so squishy that one bad pull not noticing an enemy until it's too late brings them down quickly.

    Of course, I will concede that "most" players will choose the path of least resistance and will try to avoid areas where they have be skillful or that might need great players or at least a good comination to succeed.

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    Once I quit being a noob and started getting support skills and traits in GW2 I was ok without the trinity.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
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  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    Sorry for ignoring 13 pages of arguments and back and forth flaming

     

    GW2 didnt do anything groundbreaking or uique.  It simply removed a role and distributed that role amongst all the other classes.

     

    Had they invented a new system with new mechanics..yeah groundbreaking.

    The OP makes it sound like ANET did somthing totally unique and worth our support...when all the did was hit the delete button on a role.  This is why gameplay was so...stale...in GW2...everyone just DPSing.

     

    In this sense...yes the trinity works best.  They still used the trinity system, they just deleted a role out of the three...which is why people felt it was lacking.

     

    I would much rather prefer the full trinity than a gimped trinity system in a game still built around killing, managing aggro, and staying alive.  Nothing works better than a tank, a healer, and dps in a game build around this.

     

    Im still shocked people call what GW2 did as anything innovative or groundbreaking...its just public quests on a trigger rather than static...and instance pvp/pve...same old game.

  • VolgoreVolgore Posts: 2,209Member Uncommon

    I like the "no trinity"-approach.

    But i think GW2 doesnt even do it remotely right. I prefer the old trinity, but supported by a gigaton of classes (EQ2) every day.

    I also think that the trinity isn't the problem with today's games, but the way homogenisation hit it.

     

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  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    I like the hybrid system and I always aimed for a hybrid build in every mmorpg I've played so far...

    I just don't like to be limited in playing just this 1 role which doesn't offer me the ability to sustain myself on life or it does but at the price of my dps drop... or vice versa, I can heal but I can not do damage because I won't be able to heal everyone properly thus I'll increase my chances of wiping the group. I just think those days are now over for me and if the game won't offer atleast some kind of a hybrid solution - I won't even bother trying now...

    GW2 does have some issues with it's model and it could use few tweaks to tune it up just right, but when I look at the whole picture I do like it and it's really something new and it works pretty well. The only thing is that you really have to know what you're doing (and everyone in your party) so you can succeed in what you're doing at that moment, the game does not forgive and it punishes hard for every mistake you make in dungeons or fights and I think that's the way it should be in every game.

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member
    there's a thematic appeal to classes and people like being able to complement other roles in the group. without the trinity, you either end up assigning duties anyway or you participate in disorganized combat. jack-of-all-trade characters make sense in single-player games, not in 3d mmos.
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Once I quit being a noob and started getting support skills and traits in GW2 I was ok without the trinity.

    lol same for me.. i notice it happens in dungeons the most.. people run AC for their first time go in with a glass cannon dps build and rage quit because they can't stay alive and blame the game mechanics.. once i figured out how to play all the roles on the fly combat became much more fluid and enjoyable

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Once I quit being a noob and started getting support skills and traits in GW2 I was ok without the trinity.

    lol same for me.. i notice it happens in dungeons the most.. people run AC for their first time go in with a glass cannon dps build and rage quit because they can't stay alive and blame the game mechanics.. once i figured out how to play all the roles on the fly combat became much more fluid and enjoyable

    glass cannon is a viable build and I run it on my ranger. it works really good, the only thing is that it takes alot of time to learn how to play it properly because, as you said, you can't stay alive for long if noobish :D

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • wardoxywardoxy BrgPosts: 81Member
    Well it really just feels like it needs a midterm... but I definately prefer trinity over non-trinity, it's just too chaotic & messy with non-trinity, sure it may look fun  at start, but after a while it gets annoying, I like a bit of organization, so i'll take Trinity anytime.
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Once I quit being a noob and started getting support skills and traits in GW2 I was ok without the trinity.

    lol same for me.. i notice it happens in dungeons the most.. people run AC for their first time go in with a glass cannon dps build and rage quit because they can't stay alive and blame the game mechanics.. once i figured out how to play all the roles on the fly combat became much more fluid and enjoyable

    glass cannon is a viable build and I run it on my ranger. it works really good, the only thing is that it takes alot of time to learn how to play it properly because, as you said, you can't stay alive for long if noobish :D

    yea that's what i mean you need to be good and know the dungeon to run glass cannon.. unlike many other MMOs with the holy trinity i could go in full dps no cares whatsoever on the first couple dungeons but in GW2 you can get 1 shotted left and right even in the very first dungeon

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    Can't vote on that, it is too narrowminded.

    Do I want roles ? yeah that is what makes people work together.

    Do I like the term holy trinity ? no that is a simplistic view on the issue.

    Does the roles have to set based on classes ? No way, your role should be based on playstyle and choices, and possibly soft so you can switch between roles.

    Roleless is not a mmorpg, it is just a battle ground. Teamplay is all about dedicating and specializing your character to a "role" while others have other roles, thereby making the team better than if everyone is just a .. to put it in holy trio mindset, a dps class.

    You can have roles that are not included in the holy trinity standard view, we just havent seen much of it for many years, Everquest has some examples but let the mind wander. Multiple roles are also overlooked in most games, and additive roles where two of same role type can add their powers together.

  • SuperNickSuperNick CambridgePosts: 460Member
    I liked how LOTRO had the captain and loremaster class. Hybrid support/dmg/buffer roles.
  • nolic1nolic1 Kingman, AZPosts: 687Member Uncommon

    I have read this whole post and it makes me laugh so many of you say you like the trinty but yet you dont play games with it you jump on one game that tryed to break from the normal trinty and add something new. Thats why most dont like GW2 is its different to a point that most only go one way and thats DPS and thats not totaly true I run a mesmer that is support/control and a little DPS but I mostly run support/control with them I do this on most of my characters cause it works for me. On my engineer I run a dps/support role and dont die hardly at all. On my Guardian I run a control/dps roles and almost never die and thats cause I set may traits and stats to fit my play style instead of following the FOTM which is a cheap way for players to try to be the best.

     

    I think that most games that offer a simular set up where you can make you character to your liking through stats and traits or whatever the company wants to name them it makes the character more unique and not just a cookie cutter set-up like most players want you to be and this has been this way in almost every mmo sense EQ and even happened in UO alot and I never follow that play style cause I preffer different and then companys changed the stats to meet the class and took away alot of uniqueness from players and now we have the FOTM built in to our characters so much to most thats the normal and its not for me. 

     

    I stick to GW2 because I can be different then the same class I am grouped with and to this day I have only met one other mesmer that plays simular to me and thats felt odd. Just because in EQ my wife played a cleric that out tanked almost all tanks we grouped with or out healed most clerics does not mean she was playing wrong she was playing how she liked to play and just because I could tank and heal with a bard in EQ did not mean I played wrong its how I set my toon up for my playstyle. Even in WoW my NIghtelf Prist with mace and shield stood in the fight with my wifes pally because I made my toon that way to do that untill they changed it then we quit. I have done the same in almost every mmo I have played and makes me enjoy GW2 even more and cant wait for more games to come out that let you creat your character as you play and not force you into a certain play style.

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    To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  • leinad312leinad312 Kirkland, WAPosts: 313Member
    The lack of trinity was a big reason why I never got into the dungeons in GW2. I didn't have the patience to learn such a drastically different group dynamic.

    Playing - FFXIV, TSW
    Played - FFXI, WoW, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Aion, SWToR, LotRO, GW2, TERA, Rift, ESO

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by nolic1

    I have read this whole post and it makes me laugh so many of you say you like the trinty but yet you dont play games with it you jump on one game that tryed to break from the normal trinty and add something new. Thats why most dont like GW2 is its different to a point that most only go one way and thats DPS and thats not totaly true I run a mesmer that is support/control and a little DPS but I mostly run support/control with them I do this on most of my characters cause it works for me. On my engineer I run a dps/support role and dont die hardly at all. On my Guardian I run a control/dps roles and almost never die and thats cause I set may traits and stats to fit my play style instead of following the FOTM which is a cheap way for players to try to be the best.

     

    I think that most games that offer a simular set up where you can make you character to your liking through stats and traits or whatever the company wants to name them it makes the character more unique and not just a cookie cutter set-up like most players want you to be and this has been this way in almost every mmo sense EQ and even happened in UO alot and I never follow that play style cause I preffer different and then companys changed the stats to meet the class and took away alot of uniqueness from players and now we have the FOTM built in to our characters so much to most thats the normal and its not for me. 

     

    I stick to GW2 because I can be different then the same class I am grouped with and to this day I have only met one other mesmer that plays simular to me and thats felt odd. Just because in EQ my wife played a cleric that out tanked almost all tanks we grouped with or out healed most clerics does not mean she was playing wrong she was playing how she liked to play and just because I could tank and heal with a bard in EQ did not mean I played wrong its how I set my toon up for my playstyle. Even in WoW my NIghtelf Prist with mace and shield stood in the fight with my wifes pally because I made my toon that way to do that untill they changed it then we quit. I have done the same in almost every mmo I have played and makes me enjoy GW2 even more and cant wait for more games to come out that let you creat your character as you play and not force you into a certain play style.

    that's another thing that bothers me about some trinity games is the lack of being able to make your character feel unique.. although I did  enjoy Rift because i could put together a workable soul combo and mix and match skills that was't the fotm and worked well.. i do the same in gw2.. as long as the game gives you the flexability to stand out in how you play and gives you options so you are not the exact same as the 1000 other people of your same class i'm usually happy holy trinity or not

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    I do find that I'm missing the trinity.  Make it like Rift only have every class able to fill all the roles, each with their own unique flavor, and then let people gravitate to what they like best. 

     

    GW2 is fine, but it just seems very, i dont know, zergy.  I mean there is a reason why the vast majority of the groups go for Ascalon Catacombs or CoF, they're quick and easy.

  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Vista, CAPosts: 650Member Uncommon
    I thought I wouldn't mind gw2 without the trinity because its been so many years with it, but it turns out I like games with the trinity more.  I like defined roles and classes.  I tried to force a healer spec in gw2 but it is so subpar it's almost useless.

    Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
    Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
    Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Lets make this clear: Any multiplayer game with any kind of specialization will have roles. Be that martial-magic to shotguns-snipers.

    I just don't want the aggro mechanics, because it makes combat predictable and formulaic -> boring.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by bingbongbros
    I thought I wouldn't mind gw2 without the trinity because its been so many years with it, but it turns out I like games with the trinity more.  I like defined roles and classes.  I tried to force a healer spec in gw2 but it is so subpar it's almost useless.

    Thats because full healer spec was inteded to be subpar. They tried to make you move from reactive defense to proactive defense - repairing damage to actively avoiding damage. Healing is quite frankly the easiest and dumbest form of defense there is. No offense meant.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aSynchro

    I'd also like to point that trinity prevents players from being together.  What do you prefer to hear :

    Ultima Online, EVE, Guild Wars 2: "hey, sure: join us and lets have fun together!"

    or :

    Trinity based MMORPG: "mmh, sorry: we only need a tank/healer now..."

    ?

     

    The lack of trinity doesn't prevent this in GW2. Go over to gw2lfg.com and you'll see tons of posts requesting Warriors or Guardians specifically.

    <3

  • RecoreRecore Posts: 5,095Member Uncommon
    I dont know about the whole trinity thing but I like having a dedicated role in a group. I remeber before this game even launched I said the system would not work.
    Raptr Gamercard
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Mannish
    I dont know about the whole trinity thing but I like having a dedicated role in a group. I remeber before this game even launched I said the system would not work.

    yet it works great once people learn how to play the 3 roles simultaneously gw2 offers in combat:) just not everyone is willing to learn a new way.. which is fine many like what they are familiar with..

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member Common
    After actually playing two games now without the trinity, I Definitly want it back ,call it preference, it seems once you take the trinity out, my fav class Healer & Pally goes poof!

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon
    Why isn't there an option for "I don't care either way"? Because really, I don't care either way. 

    This is not a game.

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