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Originally posted by SBFord If a tank needs to face away from the party so the party doesn’t get destroyed by acid spit, have a spirit healer remind the tank of his explicit duty to stay away from everyone else before resurrection. If the DPS and healers have to mind not to step in the deadly life-stealing gunk, or to cast interrupts, or throw more DOTS at the whelps, give the reminder in a manner that fits a player’s particular role.
This made me laugh. Reminds me of the old Dives scream fest meme on wiping to Onyxia "minus 50DKP." The average WoW raid goes something like this:
Tank and healers run at the boss and pull it into the corner. Melee go left, mages go right, dps it slowly then fast, and when the dragon turns red everyone run to the blue circle and kill welps or some equally stupid gimic.
Maybe they should remove the retarded jump through hoops raiding and make something fun. Vindictus does raiding the right way. Oh snap a dragon is running right at us so maybe we better move out of the way.
Never going back to WoW style raiding no matter what kind of buffs they throw at the players.
Originally posted by Foncl What I don't understand is how people can level up a character to max level and do the normal dungeons without learning the basics of how to play their class. ... When will the casuals be satisfied? When the whole game is lowered to their level and hardcore players have nothing left to do?
+1, I don't get it either. I've been on the 'casual' side since years now (in the sense that I rarely do instas and raids, and do it only to see the content in it, never for the endgame treadmill), but I never had any problems with 'basic' mode. I do think it's a wrong answer to even more dumbing down something that only needs a bit of attention and/or a bit of community. In fact, those few instas / raids I play often so I'm familiar with the ropes I also tend to teach these things to newcomers, just like I was teached at the first runs, and it's a much more useful help than give them boosts... (lol, 'often' in my terms, meaning I never skip them when I level a new alt for example GA and Hele in LotRO, or Karutonia and Vistrix in AoC are awesome)
The funny thing is, big part of the playerbase doesn't ditch raiding because it's hard, they're doing it because it's a boring waste of time. When I started to leave at level cap and go to an another game or a new alt, my buddies mocked me with all the usual stuff (n00b, dunno how to play, not a real mmo player, etc.). Now, all of them playing the same way They realized during the years as well that grinding the same stuff for months isn't a game, just a chore.
So dumbing down that chore is a stupid answer for making it more popular... except if they're aiming the other part of the playerbase, who wants everything simplified and easy. But aiming them will ruin any game in the long run, imo.
When will they satisfied? Dunno, but the direction is sad... offline levels and progression, dumbed down mechanics, rent-a-lackey, bots and macros... There's a mocking little flash title called Anti idle game, where the game plays itself, you leave it in the background and it kills/ loots/ leveling up by itself I really hope mmo's won't sink that low in the near future.
First off, Blizzard has not one thing to say about failure, when EVERY one of their dungeons is packed wall-to-wall with bad guys, where one misstep will pull another entire group of enemies, when you're simply attempting to maneuver for a better position. Blizzard has developed all of their dungeons for max fail, and you don't even HAVE to get to a boss. If you are not spec'd such-and-so for the group you're in, if you don't have the specific correct down-to-the-letter gear for your class, and if you don't make exactly the right moves and use exactly the right skills at exactly the right times, it has the distinct possibility of a party wipe involved.
That being said, failure in the game should NOT be rewarded, but rather something like an additional task added to help perform research, or other tasks to find weaknesses for the bosses in a particular dungeon, perhaps being able to find and read the history of the group, perhaps a specific piece of gear or the particular use of a skill, practiced prior to attempting the dungeon again. WoW is, after all, supposed to be a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, and not just a combat monster. As all MMOs stand, at this point, they have nothing to do with Role-Playing, except for a bit of speech from characters in the game.
If you want to allow players to build their confidence, give them the ability to do research, to plan, to understand what and where they're going into, whom they will be facing, and give them appropriate bonuses for doing so. Ever-increasing bonuses for stacking failures and/or big failures at the beginning, or at any particular point of the game, are both wrong ways to go. We live in a society that now impresses on us that EVERYONE is a winner, which is absolute poppycock, and our games only reinforce this misunderstanding of what life is about. If you want to use our games to help teach life skills, I think that's great, but let's get a real clue about how to do it, first, please?
It's a good system. Hello Kitty Online has something similar. Like in one raid where you have to enter someone's house and steal an old lady's pie on the counter. She comes at you hard with a rolling pin and it's pretty hard if you are a newbie. So if you die you get a biscuit in your inventory and when you eat it you get raid buffed.
Normally, the old lady goes down within two, maybe three biscuits. Some pretty decent loot too. I think I got an Apron of Understand +2 which is decent for a low level chef.
Haha, people accept failure today... please, they expect to be given an easy win/gear and be on their way. They won't bother to improve at all sadly which has been driving the skill of the player base down into the ground. Its not like its a small gap either, bluntly it feels like people have just given up trying in games at all. Theres a problem for example in game when I'll have less gear in an MMO then someone else and yet I provide over double the damage output.
No, its not me being hardcore, hardcore would be me expecting people to be performing top notch all the time, people are just blatently not seeming to try anymore and just expect to be carried around rather then to attempt to ever improve.
This Column Proof.
The hand holding the US Citizen's and it's government has started will be the downfall if it's self. Blind to the real world around them with all this protective, non-comedic rhetoric. You just need to try even if you don't do well you did great!
Tell that to the next heart surgeon.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Isn't this just lazyness on WoW's part? If you balance an encounter properly, then is this buff needed?
On this other hand, if a random made group has a reason to stay together and continue to try isn't that better than people dropping each time things don't work out?
GW1 had a debuff for failure. You got worst each time you wiped. I can't say I loved that feature, but it did force me to get better.
The prob is that in todays society it is now wrong to teach a child that they can fail even if the child has faild big. So the child grows up thinking that they win all the time and they can never fail.
Now what indeed. This qustion will never be answered anytime soon.
Originally posted by Mardukk They cant really be considering a 50 percent buff after a few wipes....My old WoW guild has to be really pissed lol. There are all kinds of things wrong with this idea. I cant say im suprised considering the direction WoW has been going after tbc. So people that don't care for this "everyone gets a trophy" bs have the craptastic ffa pvp games and wizardry....awesome.
To be honest, ever since companies have been making death more and more trivial in MMORPGs, this is just the next step in the evolution. I rue for the days where character death meant a set back and a learning experience.
I am back to single player games like BG and such where if your main character dies, it is game over and if your companions die and you happen to not be able to rez them, it is a trip back to the temple. So much fun !
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Originally posted by Foncl What I don't understand is how people can level up a character to max level and do the normal dungeons without learning the basics of how to play their class. Actually I can sort of understand it now, seeing how childishly simple the dungeons in the panda expansion are. Dungeoning in WoW is so unfun now. In the old dungeons, all of the challenge and thought needed to beat them was removed. Gone is the necessity to pull properly, wait for patrols to go away, cc'ing healer mobs, etc. It is just pull everything and AoE. Tanks do so much dps now they never have to worry about losing aggro and so many tank classes have great AoE aggro so you just spam that button and you never have to worry. The newer dungeons are not any better, even the heroics. The only difference is a couple more fancy manoeuvres on the heroic bosses and the stiffer gear requirement to get in. Raidfinder is already extremely simple, all it takes is that everyone knows the basics of their class to complete it even before this change. The difficulty gap between raid finder raiding and "real raiding" will only increase, so it won't be a good stepping stone for the real thing anymore if you make it too simple. The only thing you need to know to play your class are the basics and basically 90% of the time it is figuring out how to do more dps. Everything is handed to you in this game. Isn't the leveling up and dungeons enough of a learning process to teach players the basics? Should endgame also be about teaching players the basics of how to play their class? It is also about learning how to cooperate in groups, and that is gone too. When will the casuals be satisfied? When the whole game is lowered to their level and hardcore players have nothing left to do? Whining from casuals ruined what I liked best in WoW, challenging heroic mode 5-man dungeons. By the looks of it raiding is heading in the same direction, they won't stop until there is no challenge left. Soon noone will fail in Wow, everyone is a winner.
I am one semi-casual player that did not whine about raiding.
I always feel that there should be content for everyone but making all content accessible to everyone when some people can't spend more than an hour a night (if that) playing is a pity because it does not cater to everyone, just the casuals.
Even so, if you look at group content in general, I think it is so much fun when it is challenging and people have to work together and know their classes. I am perfectly happy doing really difficult group content that requires skillful play, even if that means I never get to the point of raiding. Small group play is really fun.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? lol I love it when I can quote scripture
Originally posted by Amsai O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? lol I love it when I can quote scripture
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
LOL nice one Icewhite.
I guess Ill be foolish and see you all in hell.
While I install 3rd party programs and play games that natively play themselves for me.
Now if only I could have someone feed me, wipe my ass, and decide whats best for me....... oh wait....... forgot I have the U.S. government for that ^.~
I just died on Path of Exile Hardcore and then then saw this thread.
*weeps quietly inside*
Originally posted by nethaniah Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
Originally posted by sacredfool I just died on Path of Exile Hardcore and then then saw this thread. *weeps quietly inside*
Well, did you learn anything or was your life a waste?
I just don't have the right amount of obsessive-compulsive for WoW style raiding. Every video I have watched of it looked like folks who'd memorized 'Simon Says' routines. There was this one where the BIgBoss was resolutely chasing this one guy (probably a tank) back and forth across the room while dozens of people stood around firing off scads of damagy looking attacks. Looked boring as hell, and you do it for hours??
I can certainly understand why they might want to make it more accessible. Personally, I would prefer it to be more fun. But that's why I don't play it. Just not cut out for the geargrind hardcore raiding ethos.
On the other hand it does save Blizzard from making new content.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Here's my guess at the reasoning behind this "feature": Q4 earning statement for Activision/Blizzard went out this past week and it was reported that World of Warcraft lost a bunch more subscribers. This was for the quarter that Mists of Panda-town was released, so I'm guessing the management from above told the developers to do whatever was necessary to retain subscribers.
Originally posted by Kyleran So, this only applies to raids put together via the raidfimder tool? I can see it now, people telling their guild raid leader they aren't coming to tonights raid because it well easierand faster to complete it with a PUG group than to struggle through it with the guild. I hope the decide to Nerf the rewards or something or I can actually see this scenario happening.
Nerf the rewards? It's already nerfed, compared to normal/hc (which raiding guilds do), and always was.
Originally posted by Arglebargle I just don't have the right amount of obsessive-compulsive for WoW style raiding. Every video I have watched of it looked like folks who'd memorized 'Simon Says' routines. There was this one where the BIgBoss was resolutely chasing this one guy (probably a tank) back and forth across the room while dozens of people stood around firing off scads of damagy looking attacks. Looked boring as hell, and you do it for hours?? I can certainly understand why they might want to make it more accessible. Personally, I would prefer it to be more fun. But that's why I don't play it. Just not cut out for the geargrind hardcore raiding ethos. On the other hand it does save Blizzard from making new content.
Hours and hours and hours <images of WAY too many times through molten core flash back...> <face palm>
But I still have the night slayer set for my level 90 rogue (transmorph). Its the only tier set I ever focused on. I pretty much burned out of raiding after that. I'm just not a raider type.
But I have some great screen shots from that time. Almost all of the original founders of the guild (Aces of Azeroth/silvermoon) have left, or moved to another guild. Its too bad, as it was one of the first guilds on the server. I have some great memories of the dungeon runs and guild raids from that time, though. I've not had that much fun from another game, so far.