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Originally posted by kitarad My problem with gw 2 is that it is not a good implementation of the no holy trinity idea. I think City of X did it way better and people were still able to have clear roles which is the main reason it fails in gw 2.
They must have changed from CoH, because CoH definitely copied the EQ, Tank, Heal, CC, DPS methodology.
I hated the lack of the trinity.
Been playing MMOs for years now and while I thought it sounded great on paper, I knew it was doomed to fail.
It basically failed on all the expectations I had:
I find an all-hybrid system reduces the pride/feeling of accomplishment that I get from being really good at a particular role. I like defining myself and striving to be the best at that particular nitch, but while I do prefer having individual roles in a group setting, the classes themselves should be able to fill multiple roles based on gear,spec,etc. If a player's class can be specced for dps or healing then the developer needs to make sure that both/all roles are totally viable for that class and its up to the player to choose which he wants to pursue at any given time. This way the roles are there for you to swap between, but you need to put in the effort to gear for and learn how to play that role. Maybe "skill trees" could also be versatile enough to allow a hybrid spec for soloing.
In short, having defined group roles is good but each class needs the flexability to define itself as one of those roles depending on the players choice. Some classes may have two options while others may have three or more if you include hybrid specs.
What will eventually win the day is neither of the two poll options. It will be something wonderful and grand that you never imagined until Toyota entered the MMO business.
P.S. I'm from the future.
Originally posted by grimfall Originally posted by mikuniman No, I would like to see more games with an alternative to the holy trinity. I don't think GW2 combat model offered the best alternative. Most of the issues in GW2 were because 99% of mmos use the trinity and gamers had trouble with the learning curve and gamers are adverse to change. I like GW2 for many of its features. I would say the combat being what I liked the least.
No offense, but this makes no sense. If WoW was your first MMORPG, no one would have liked it because they didn't have any experience with the combat mechanics. Their entire player basse would have been 1 million people from EQ and DAOC (who wouldn't have liked those games).
People didn't like GW2 because it's combat was a mess, and your actions didn't have any impact on the world. GW2's combat is sort of like Jazz. Some people really love it, but in the end mpst, people like more structured music (and all jazz fans are convinced that Jazz is the best music there is).
It doesn’t really matter then it matters now, when you have 10+ years of trinity mmos under a larger mmo player base and gamers generally brainwashed that that’s the only system that could possible work because it’s been done for so long and in so many mmos.
And as I mentioned GW2 did not do an alternative to holy trinity any justice. If I was to ask generally how many gamers that play mmos have experienced other alternatives to the holy trinity my guess the percentage would be low. That’s all I was getting at.
As a musician myself I get your jazz reference as GW2 combat model being all over the place. I would add that the people that “got it” had no issues with the way it worked. Whether they liked over another is a matter of opinion. Yeah, I would agree that when someone is brand loyal they do think it’s the best in the world.
After GW2....I want a game that has world class realm vs realm warfare.....as my #1 desire.There are two games that offer that possibility...ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE...and THE REPOPULATION that I'm watching..
As for the trinity(not trio) of the three classes..or not.I'm for the freedom to specialize..or not.I'm for not being limited to a mainly cleric class or mainly mage class etc.That would be my preference.
I prefer the old EQ system of Tank, Healer, Crowd control + DPS. The GW2 system doesn't feel anymore fun or challenging to me, chaotic yes, but not more fun.
GW2 reminds me a lot of the early days of EQ when we were still trying to figure out how to play our classes, manage agro and mana consumption and didn't have the optimal group makeup. It would take every ounce of concentration and quick thinking, kiting, ranger healing, fearing the mobs while everyone bandaged and eventually running back to finish off the mob before it could heal up again if you died. It was very intense and sometimes fun, but also very limiting because it was impossible to take on the more challenging content that was designed to challenge specialty classes.
I am glad GW2 went with the model they did so the anti-role community has more choices now, but I'll gladly stick to more structured combat.
I prefer the defined roles myself. I was really looking forward to the idea of "No waiting for certain types of characters" to do a dungeon and the extreme homonogization of classes. However when I actually played with it... I was sorely disappointed.
I would like to see all classes have the option to perform all three roles. If you want to tank, well there's a way for your class to do it. Want to heal or DPS? Well you can do both as well. Design the classes to be able to do all three, but make the encounters require dedication for each role. Could easily be done IMHO by just swapping out skills. 5 random people all queue up for a dungeon, decide then who fills what role. Problem solved. If no one wants to fill a certain role, you have no one to blame but your group because everyone is capable of performing each role.
To be as honest as i can: Holy Trinity was never good, never is and never will be, in my opinion. This is the thing i hated the most in MMORPG (next to the "gear treadmill").
However, is GW2's class system a good implementation of "non-trinity"? Well, while it have its flaws, it surely do its job. So, yes it can always be better, in GW2's case, but i will support every person who think that combat in MMORPG can be more diverse than standard "TankHealerDPS" mechanic (which is a nice thing on paper, but it brings more bad stuff than good, in my opinion).
Bottom line: wanting "holy trio" back would be like wanting more of the same and i think its time for something different.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Please lord, let us have another game that understands additional roles, some day.
Tank, healer, dps is all right, but so limiting. I'm sure if you asked gamers, we may remember a few other roles...
OTOH, too many roles and pugs do get confused..
The op could only conceive of two possible outcomes, it seems.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Someone else posted something along these lines but I always considered the holy trinity a EQ style mechanic where every group needed tank+healer+cc then fill in the rest with off tank/dps. This trinity was a pain in the a because instead of just needing a tank + a healer you generally specifically needed an enchanter for cc , a warrior to tank and a cleric to heal. Then you would be left with maybe a rogue for dps, a monk to pull and maybe a shaman for off heals/debuffs/buffs. In WoW on the other hand you could get away with a warrior or a paladin tanking, half the DPS had some sort of cc (rogues could sap, hunters can trap, mages could frost nova etc) and you could get a priest, paladin, shaman or druid to heal.
I feel that considering the holy trinity to be the mechanic of DPS+TANK+Healer is incorrect in that you use lose classifications and to 'break' the trinity they tend to remove the need for a healer. All that does is remove a specific play style that people enjoy from the game and instead place ghetto healing and team work on everyone else.
I think there are 2 styles of mmo, the group style and the solo style. Solo style needs the removal of a specific healer class because healer + tank + dps is what defines a group style game. Personally I enjoy group style otherwise I am paying a monthly fee to play by myself in a room with other people vs playing in a room with other people WITH the other people.
Oh, and for the comments about girls playing healers. I played a healer for the first time in ff11 and it was a great experience always being needed =P. Get online and instantly get 4 messages asking to join a group sure beats getting online and begging to join a group as one of the 3 random dps classes. Also you generally have a more important role in the sense that if you suck at healing the tank dies and everyone dies... if you suck at dpsing the fight just lasts longer and you have 2 other people helping compensate for your suckyness.
I think Rift did an awesome job of including the trinity but not being restrictive.
Hey you're a rogue, well, we need a healer. OK, you can swap to bard.
Ouch, this fight requires a HoT based healer? OK, our cleric will swap specs quickly.
I think the days of "this is your spec and class, deal with it" are over. Pretty much since WoW mainstreamed the dual spec system, every MMO has duplicated it and often done a better job.
Originally posted by cura I dont like trinity. Encounters feels artificial and unheroic
Also, I hope you're not suggesting GW2 was an improvement though? It was the worst group-based content i've ever seen in my life.
Infact, show me a (Not GW2) successful themepark MMO that didn't have a trinity system.
Originally posted by SuperNick I didn't really feel connected to my characters, they were all just DPS to me with some utility. Dungeons were awful, unbalanced and a general mess. How were they ever going to balance it really? I still have nightmares about "hey i'm downed get me up!" With the no trinity, I basically lost playstyles I love. I love tanking and healing, I felt relegated into DPS only. Sure, I could play a fully water specced elementalist but it was generally a waste of time. The PvP basically became 'who can stay alive the longest' which I felt wasn't really tactical at all. It just discouraged you from playing squishy classes and specs overall. 3 guardians a warrior and a ranger became the normal in structured, of which you had a nightmare of a time getting them off flags. Where was the teamwork? Take whatever and whoever into a dungeon, it didn't matter.
I like the trinity - I love playing a healer.
Knowing that GW2 was trying to be done with the trinity, the idea intrigued me. And for the most part it was fun and different. However the one thing on top of the above that clinched for me that it has been poorly implented in GW2 was the plinx quest chain in Orr. You know the champ at the end of that chain - he had a hate on for me one time. I played my ranger at the time. He kept coming at me - and ONLY freakin me. I thought, "c'mon someone pull him off me!'" but alas none could. He beat me into the ground. Thats ok, I rezzed in the camp next to the champ and thought he'd fix on someone else. I got back into the fight and the freakin thing made a bee line for me. WTH? OK, someone heal me - nope no healers! Someone pull aggro - nope not happening either. I died (again) it stopped. I got rezed - it freaking came right for me again. Had to be a cruel joke. So I stopped dps'ing and kitted around to see if it was truly just me it wanted - yep. It followed me in circles. Everyone around me was yelling to stop kiting. So I stood there, died, got rezed, died, rezed, died, and so on until it was finsihed. At least everyone got their daily rez completed.
With that happening to me I was concivned that the trinity is almost neccesary. Or at least better implementation of what GW2 was trying to do. Maybe a 'holy crap that guys needs help aggro skill.' ?
Naw don't like it.
Hope I don't need to elaborate, if someone wants to know why quote me.
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Role based grouping with aggro mechanics? Yes please.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
There are many things I like more about GW2's combat system, but the game would have been better if the down-state was removed and the trinity system was back.
Perhaps in the future, someone can tweak the "combo field" idea to provide more noticeable benefits, so we can remove the trinity for good. But right now, I prefer tanking / healing, to zerging / rezzing.
Originally posted by XAPGames Role based grouping with aggro mechanics? Yes please.
Additonal roles please.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by XAPGames Role based grouping with aggro mechanics? Yes please.
Originally posted by SuperNick I think Rift did an awesome job of including the trinity but not being restrictive. Hey you're a rogue, well, we need a healer. OK, you can swap to bard. Ouch, this fight requires a HoT based healer? OK, our cleric will swap specs quickly. I think the days of "this is your spec and class, deal with it" are over. Pretty much since WoW mainstreamed the dual spec system, every MMO has duplicated it and often done a better job. Originally posted by cura I dont like trinity. Encounters feels artificial and unheroic
It is less restrictive with so many class builds but still boiled down to someone tanking and someone healing.
Originally posted by XAPGames Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by XAPGames Role based grouping with aggro mechanics? Yes please.
Even WoW's near sibling (by opening date) managed at least 5 roles. But I don't see that option on the survey.
Originally posted by mikuniman It is less restrictive with so many class builds but still boiled down to someone tanking and soemone healing.
That's what a lot of people enjoy though. They enjoy focusing on a specific role to combine with a group (teamwork) and achieve something. I think the general consensus on people who do like roles is that we could do with more diversity instead of the same old 3.
I guess to me, the role choices of group content is a staple feature of an MMO; it really isn't something you can do away with and hope to achieve the same results as a role system. Much like we seen with GW2 really - sure, it worked somewhat but it really wasn't that enjoyable.
It would be like trying to play an RTS game where you only play as one unit.. well, it's not really an RTS anymore, it's now a MOBA. So in that light, an MMO with no trinity and no real progression suddenly just becomes an action RPG instead that you enjoy for a bit and move on.
Originally posted by Sodahz It limits the PVE aspect in GW2 without a trinity.
This is what I think also. Without a trinity (especially a tank), you really tie the hands of the developers on how they can develop boss fights.
I think many people dislike the trinity not because of the trinity, but because some early games had problems adopting it. In WOW for instance, tanking was very demanding for the first 3 minutes, then very boring for the next 5. It generally forced people into being leaders, who don´t have the personality for it. Healing was a very thankless job that was only noticed when something went wrong. It is also a little demanding in that you can´t take a breather mid-fight and áutoshoot´ like most dps can. DPS are always considered less important than healer and tanks, and generally always are the ones getting sat for raids, or having long queue times for random content.
For a diable type game, not having a trinity is fine. But for a progressive MMO with pve tiers, boss fights are just boring without a trinity and the intricacies that the devs can throw into an encounter.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by XAPGames Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by XAPGames Role based grouping with aggro mechanics? Yes please.
yea just 3 roles is way to restrictive for me.. i like at least adding a support role and at least allow players to play multiple roles with the same character..
also just noticed your sig lol nice:P
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