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Things I see is missing

tharkthark FalunPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon

I havent played with the 4th edition rules , so maybe my thinking is flawed or these things simply does not exist in 4th edition. Alas I have read articles and watched some videos explaning some of it's diffrences compared to 3.5 ed rules etc.

I also hear alot of folks talk about how 4th edition rules "was designed with MMO's or computer roleplaying in mind" I think this is a comment or rumour created by all the negative critique that followed this ruleset when it was released.

So now it's used in defence of Cryptic's action game. As I see it , it was never a real plan for this edition, sure It was more action oriented and streamlined for easier play, and monsters have far less hp so that the "heroes" should feel more "heroic" etc. But I don't belive you design Pen & Paper rules so that you can create computer games easier with a D&D brand. Atlest give me some valid links that points out that this is the case.

Also, the game looks fun, and in a very narrow minded world this should be the only thing that matters, I'm sure it is fun, we have seen several videos and testamonies towards the truth in this, but for how long ?

If there isn't any sort of tactical dept and/or a mix of what makes D&D the great game it has always been. 4th edition rules was more/less a failed attempt , was it not ? A glorious way for Paizo to sell more of Pathfinder RPG. Why would any company base their product upon a failed game product ?

My concerns are:

1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

I'm not saying that the game has to be "turn based" or such, but for me It has to have atleast some of the above, othervise it becomes just another action title among the otheres

Comments

  • tokinitokini third hut on the leftPosts: 341Member Common

    i dont think people say 4th edition was desigened for easier transition into a videgame, but rather that it was designed to somewhat emulate videogame play at the expense of traditional DnD play style. 

     

    as far as why they would base it upon a failed prduct, well its the most current edition, is it not? maybe that is part of the licensing agreement. seems unlikely they would have wanted to use THACO anyway lol

     

    the game might be fun, im going to wait a bit before i bother with it personally. all other things being the same though, without the DnD name attached to it, would it even have a third of what attention its getting now?

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thark

    I havent played with the 4th edition rules , so maybe my thinking is flawed or these things simply does not exist in 4th edition. Alas I have read articles and watched some videos explaning some of it's diffrences compared to 3.5 ed rules etc.

    I also hear alot of folks talk about how 4th edition rules "was designed with MMO's or computer roleplaying in mind" I think this is a comment or rumour created by all the negative critique that followed this ruleset when it was released.

    So now it's used in defence of Cryptic's action game. As I see it , it was never a real plan for this edition, sure It was more action oriented and streamlined for easier play, and monsters have far less hp so that the "heroes" should feel more "heroic" etc. But I don't belive you design Pen & Paper rules so that you can create computer games easier with a D&D brand. Atlest give me some valid links that points out that this is the case.

    Also, the game looks fun, and in a very narrow minded world this should be the only thing that matters, I'm sure it is fun, we have seen several videos and testamonies towards the truth in this, but for how long ?

    If there isn't any sort of tactical dept and/or a mix of what makes D&D the great game it has always been. 4th edition rules was more/less a failed attempt , was it not ? A glorious way for Paizo to sell more of Pathfinder RPG. Why would any company base their product upon a failed game product ?

    My concerns are:

    1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not. The magic casting hasnt been based on medetation in 2 versions.

    2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps) This is low levels, nothing will kill you outright.  But I assure you getting him by a trap means something to everyone who's ever played a D&D game.

    3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are chowcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Bossb without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons. Those are in game again this is all low levels wait a while and let the whole of the encounters come alive.

    4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept. Will come post launch and if you listened to Totalbiscuit's video you know at aroudn the 40 min mark theres a lengthy discussion of classes and races.

    I'm not saying that the game has to be "turn based" or such, but for me It has to have atleast some of the above, othervise it becomes just another action title among the otheres Same action gameplay thats litters the MMO genre...ohh wait thats right, theres only a handful of MMO's that feature action combat as opposed to the bland boring turn based roll a die whack a mole tab target combat.

     

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member

    Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

    And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

  • tharkthark FalunPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HorrorScope

    Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

    And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

     Yes As I said...The Diablo aspect of this game may be fun, evidently it is fun according to various players that had the chance to test it..All shown in several hour long footages showcasing the cloak tower dungeon

    But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Originally posted by thark
    Originally posted by HorrorScope

    Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

    And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

     Yes As I said...The Diablo aspect of this game may be fun, evidently it is fun according to various players that had the chance to test it..All shown in several hour long footages showcasing the cloak tower dungeon

    But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

    Then I guess we should give them +1 for marketing. Also it took two. WoC gave it up as well, they could have said no thanks.

  • hraethhraeth Hillsboro, ORPosts: 34Member
    I didn't get to play beta weekend 1.  I did watch streaming footage of game play this weekend.  This means that my opinions are even more opiniony than usual.  That being said, I had prepared myself to be deeply disappointed by everything about this game.  I have not like any previous games by Cryptic or PWE and while I am a D&D fan I just didn't believe that Cryptic/PWE could pull it off.  Boy, was I suprised when I watched the streams and the game looked fun.  Even more surprised when the started talking about some of their plans to keep gameplay fresh and encourage people to branch out into new areas of gameplay throughout their play sessions.  Add to that the foundary and I have to say that I'm highly encouraged.  I may just like this game after all.  No, it isn't PnP D&D.  It isn't DDO.  It's something different and, just maybe, something fun.  I've seen several posts saying that without x or y compenent, "this just isn't D&D."  I've played PnP.  I enjoy PnP.  But this game can't be judged on the merits of PnP because it isn't PnP.  I hope that the foundary provides an answer to the issues the OP brought up (if those issues aren't already resolved in the game in later play) but even with just what I've seen so far, I am encouraged that this might just be a game that is worth some of my time.
  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by HorrorScope

    Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

    And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

    If they ever used DDOs system with an open world ... oh man.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member

    As someone who has played DnD for 30 years I will say 4th edition was and still is my favorite edition by far. Yes it streamlined the rules it gave set abilities for characters but in doing so it created a large amount of diversity between the characters. As far as being less tactical that is completely false,  the combat was made very tactical and closely resembles tabletop wargames. Positioning became much more important while older editions favored more narrative gameplay. I am  also an avid table top wargamer and 4th could easily pass for a table top wargame. That being said you still have the option of playing a narrative style game if you wish.

    players in 4th felt more heroic because they are actually given heroic types of abilities starting at level 1. Also it included minions for as adversaries as well as elite mobs. People who claim the game was nothing more than hack and slash need to blame their GM and the RPGA for encouraging the DnD weekly encounter playstyle instead of running a good old fashion campaign.

  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thark

    My concerns are:

    1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

    You do have this.  As a matter of fact, our cleric stopped our party before doing the final fight in The Cloak Tower so that he could swap out spells.  As a guardian fighting with two other guardians, I swapped out two attacks - whereas in AD&D you would never do this, or have it required.

    2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

    There are traps, but nothing that stops a party from progressing.  It's good and bad.  In DDO you have some killer traps... so parties can't do a dungeon unless you have someone to do the traps.

    3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

    Puzzles are really not good for MMO's because people share the information anyway.  There are some puzzles, just nothing in that particular dungeon - though there are some side things that you miss if you don't look around.

    4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

    I enjoy it as well, but it's not a 4E thing.  I miss being a half-elf Figher/Magic-User/Cleric half-elf, but take it up with WOTC.

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by HorrorScope

    Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

    And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

    If they ever used DDOs system with an open world ... oh man.

    I've mentioned to Turbine a dozen times, marry LOTRO and DDO together into one. LOTRO's Open World and DDO's dungeons. The only thing in the way is years and millions.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by thark

    I havent played with the 4th edition rules , so maybe my thinking is flawed or these things simply does not exist in 4th edition. Alas I have read articles and watched some videos explaning some of it's diffrences compared to 3.5 ed rules etc.

    I also hear alot of folks talk about how 4th edition rules "was designed with MMO's or computer roleplaying in mind" I think this is a comment or rumour created by all the negative critique that followed this ruleset when it was released.

    So now it's used in defence of Cryptic's action game. As I see it , it was never a real plan for this edition, sure It was more action oriented and streamlined for easier play, and monsters have far less hp so that the "heroes" should feel more "heroic" etc. But I don't belive you design Pen & Paper rules so that you can create computer games easier with a D&D brand. Atlest give me some valid links that points out that this is the case.

    Also, the game looks fun, and in a very narrow minded world this should be the only thing that matters, I'm sure it is fun, we have seen several videos and testamonies towards the truth in this, but for how long ?

    If there isn't any sort of tactical dept and/or a mix of what makes D&D the great game it has always been. 4th edition rules was more/less a failed attempt , was it not ? A glorious way for Paizo to sell more of Pathfinder RPG. Why would any company base their product upon a failed game product ?

    My concerns are:

    1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

    Five minutes watching a gameplay video where anyone is playing a devoted priest or control wizard would prove your first statement wrong, there's a list of powers you choose from those listed and to save time (ie to function like any normal game much less mmorpg should one can do this on the fly). Waiting 1 hour after changing a power or a whole day doesn't really fit with RL needs.

    2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

    Well so far the only traps I've seen have been those in the solo missions, everything else I've seen has been a single dungeon. Traps are a bit difficult to do in dungeons so I give props they are in there at all. I do love how you have to have specific classes with you to get items throughout the dungeons like hidden rooms with treasure chests. That was a nice touch.

    3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

    No one's seen enough of the game to know if this is in there yet. I believe since WoC is there with every step of the dev teams progress in making this, that they most likely added some of these to some of the group challenges.

    4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

    Not really the best thing tried it on DDO was a jack of all trades couldn't really progress well with much of the setup and then there's the dealing with if people clicked on the wrong thing problem. It's never fun to have to respec because you pressed the wrong button especially if you have to pay for the respec with real money.

    I'm not saying that the game has to be "turn based" or such, but for me It has to have atleast some of the above, othervise it becomes just another action title among the otheres

    I think they did well.

    I also think that 4th edition is definitely more of an mmo style ruleset because of the way they separate powers and feats. It's pretty obvious.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by thark

    But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

    When you say cashgrab.....

    I think of telling everyone your game is dynamic enough to allow for everyone's playstyle and then stealth nerfing loot prior to releasing dungeons with a gear treadmill you said you would never use in your title. That's a cashgrab. And that's what Arenanet did. It's a bait and switch.

    What Cryptic is doing is no different then what LOTRO's been doing for years now, selling content. It's no different then indie companies asking for starter cash. If it's anything like how PW saved STO it's going to be nice.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 389Member

    It's mdae by Cryptic.  They don't make games with depth, they don't make games with deep systems, they don't make games that are open ended.  They make simple minded, action orientated linear grindfests.  So it is what it is.  This game has more in common with Guild Wars 2 than it does actual D&D.  Maybe they should have called it  "inspired by D&D" .

     

    Sure Turbin'es D&D Online has more meat on it's bone when it comes to actual D&D systems and such, but that was never the intent of Crytpic.  They set out to create a fast paced, action game in Neverwinter and that is pretty much what they did.

     

    It looks kind of fun.  I am not sure if it is a game that people will be playing for years but I could see myself getting a good couple of months out of it, maybe a bit more if the Foundry works out as planned (that is a big if though).  At the very least it will last as long as GW2 did for me (which was about two weeks)....and while well all know it is not "free" you can do a few weeks of it free and get a sense of how the game will play out.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,436Member Uncommon
    The game is shit loads of fun is all I know! I can't believe how much fun

    image
  • hraethhraeth Hillsboro, ORPosts: 34Member

    In thinking about traps in instances a few things occur to me:

    1.  Must have a rogue or we can't do X content... is bad in an MMO.  It's bad with any class.  Must have rogue or X content is harder is ok.

    2.  Trap goes off = party dies every time... is not fun.

    3.  Just wait there for a couple of minutes while I, the rogue, check the area ahead for traps... is also not fun.

    But, there may be a solution.  Traps with effects that happen over time.  Here are a couple examples:

    1.  You're fighting a pack of baddies when the healer accidentally triggers a trap and walls on each side start to lift releasing monsters.  The walls lift slowly and at first only small mobs (a couple of small spiders) can get out and join the fray... if the trap continues to go off then soon a few goblins will be able to get out and finally a couple of hard hitting. regenerating trolls would join the fight.  Nice slow release where the trap gets progressively meaner the longer it is allowed to go on.  Then the trap dynamic would be that a rogue would be able to find the trap mechanism and stop it.  In this case your rogue would have to make the choice between peeling off the pack of baddies you're killing to shut down the trap or try and kill the pack you're on first before making a dash for the trap before the trolls escaped.

    You could use the same basic idea with other classes too... magic traps that only wizards could disable once the cascade had started, divine ones for clerics, etc.  This way the flow of gameplay, rather than being interuppted by, incorporates the trap mechanic.  Just a thought.

     

    Edit:  You could also add traps that add mechanics to the fight like raining fire that you have to move out of, pulses of frost that breifly freeze you in place, etc.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    The game is shit loads of fun is all I know! I can't believe how much fun

    mind expanded on that?:)

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,258Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    The game is shit loads of fun is all I know! I can't believe how much fun

    mind expanded on that?:)

    Yes, please. We are listening.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,936Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Originally posted by thark But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

    When you say cashgrab.....

    I think of telling everyone your game is dynamic enough to allow for everyone's playstyle and then stealth nerfing loot prior to releasing dungeons with a gear treadmill you said you would never use in your title. That's a cashgrab. And that's what Arenanet did. It's a bait and switch.

    What Cryptic is doing is no different then what LOTRO's been doing for years now, selling content. It's no different then indie companies asking for starter cash. If it's anything like how PW saved STO it's going to be nice.

     

    The only thing PW brought to STO was lockbox gambling, and for every person that "likes" what has been done to STO since PW took over, 2-3 have quit over the gambling issue, especially among longtime players.
  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thark
    Originally posted by HorrorScope

    Thark is right overall, but how I adjust myself is take the name out of it. This game is more 3rd person Diablo then DnD. So you ask yourself, do I want to play a 3rd person Diablo game?

    And as you reffered to several times, DDO is under rated and their dungeon and character variations are second to none. I always go back there, but that doesn't mean I will not enjoy "3rd Person Diablo meets Neverwinter". But I have mad respect for what DDO became, even though that isn't traditional PnP DnD.

     Yes As I said...The Diablo aspect of this game may be fun, evidently it is fun according to various players that had the chance to test it..All shown in several hour long footages showcasing the cloak tower dungeon

    But since it is D&D I would come to expect a proper D&D game, this makes me convinced that Cryptic only uses D&D for a quick cash grab , if their game wasnt titled D&D how many would have even looked at this game ?

    A proper D&D game you say...

    [18] Ravenloft Ravenloft MS-DOS DreamForge Intertainment 1994
    Al-Qadim: The Genie's Curse[18]   Al-Qadim MS-DOS Cyberlore Studios 1994
    Menzoberranzan[18]   Forgotten Realms MS-DOS DreamForge Intertainment 1994
    Ravenloft: Stone Prophet[19] Ravenloft Ravenloft MS-DOS DreamForge Intertainment 1995
    DeathKeep[19]   No specific setting Windows, 3DO Lion Entertainment 1996
    Dark Sun Online: Crimson Sands[19] Dark Sun Dark Sun Windows SSI 1996
    Blood & Magic[19]   Forgotten Realms Windows Tachyon Studios 1996
    Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance[19]   Birthright Windows Synergistic Software 1996
    Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara[19] Mystara Mystara Arcade, Sega Saturn Capcom 1996
    Iron & Blood: Warriors of Ravenloft[19]   Ravenloft Windows, PlayStation Take 2 Interactive 1997
    Descent to Undermountain[19]   Forgotten Realms Windows Interplay 1997
    Baldur's Gate[19] Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac BioWare November 30, 1998 Infinity Engine
    Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast[19] Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac BioWare April 30, 1999 Infinity Engine
    Planescape: Torment[19]   Planescape Windows Black Isle Studios December 12, 1999 Infinity Engine
    Icewind Dale[20] Icewind Dale Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac Black Isle Studios June 20, 2000 Infinity Engine
    Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn[20] Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac BioWare September 24, 2000 Infinity Engine
    Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter[20] Icewind Dale Forgotten Realms Windows Black Isle Studios 2001 Infinity Engine
    Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal[20] Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac BioWare June 21, 2001 Infinity Engine
    Icewind Dale: Trials of the Luremaster[20] Icewind Dale Forgotten Realms Windows Black Isle Studios September 7, 2001 Infinity Engine
    Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor[20] Pool of Radiance Forgotten Realms Windows Stormfront Studios September 27, 2001
    Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance[20] Dark Alliance Forgotten Realms PS2, Xbox, Nintendo GameCube, GBA Snowblind Studios December 2, 2001 Dark Alliance Engine
    Neverwinter Nights[20] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare June 18, 2002 Aurora Engine
    Icewind Dale II[20] Icewind Dale Forgotten Realms Windows Black Isle Studios August 27, 2002 Infinity Engine
    Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide[20][21] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux Floodgate Entertainment, BioWare June 21, 2003 Aurora Engine
    Dungeons & Dragons: Heroes[20]   Greyhawk Xbox Atari Hunt Valley Development Studio September 2003
    The Temple of Elemental Evil[20]   Greyhawk Windows Troika Games September 16, 2003
    Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark[20][21] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare December 2, 2003 Aurora Engine
    Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II[20] Dark Alliance Forgotten Realms PS2, Xbox Black Isle Studios January 20, 2004 Dark Alliance Engine
    Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone[22]   Forgotten Realms Windows, PS2, Xbox Stormfront Studios 2004
    Neverwinter Nights: Mobile[23] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Mobile phone Floodgate Entertainment 2004
    Neverwinter Nights: Shadowguard[21] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux Floodgate Entertainment November 10, 2004 Aurora Engine
    Neverwinter Nights: Witch's Wake[21] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare November 10, 2004 Aurora Engine
    Neverwinter Nights: Kingmaker[21] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare November 10, 2004 Aurora Engine
    Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonshard[24]   Eberron Windows Liquid Entertainment September 21, 2005
    Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach[25]   Eberron Windows Turbine, Inc. February 28, 2006
    Neverwinter Nights: Pirates of the Sword Coast[26] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare September 20, 2005 Aurora Engine
    Neverwinter Nights: Infinite Dungeons[27] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare May 26, 2006 Aurora Engine
    Neverwinter Nights: Wyvern Crown of Cormyr[28] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows, Mac, Linux BioWare September 14, 2006 Aurora Engine
    Neverwinter Nights 2[29] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows Obsidian Entertainment October 31, 2006 Electron Engine
    Dungeons & Dragons Tactics[30]   Greyhawk PSP Kuju Entertainment August 14, 2007
    Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer[29] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows Obsidian Entertainment September 27, 2007 Electron Engine
    Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir[29] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows Obsidian Entertainment November 18, 2008 Electron Engine
    Neverwinter Nights 2: Mysteries of Westgate[31] Neverwinter Nights Forgotten Realms Windows Ossian Studios April 29, 2009 Electron Engine
    Dungeons & Dragons: Daggerdale[32]
     
    And you can see more here because that ain't even counting the arcade versions of D&D. But yeah you act like Cryptic were the only ones to use the D&D name for a cash grab. I say let them have their turn on the town bicycle.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • XepherdXepherd ParisPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by thark

    My concerns are:

    1. No tactical planning, ea what spells shall my Wizard pick for this particular ruthless challenge, If you have a control Wizard you have a control wizard, you can't change or meditate/rest and choose web instead of magic missile for instance. This for me is a huge D&D factor, the tactical plannig before a big dungeon crawl, the choices that you will have to live with during an adventure. DDO has these choices, but as far as I can tell Neverwinter does not.

    No offense but that's wrong. There's still a bit of planning to be found in Neverwinter. At some point I changed my skills and was having difficulty in combat...I had a BAM to kill so I changed my setup and used a power that would make my rogue appear in the monster's back (instead of the damage/finisher skill). This really made my fight easier. When the ogre would start to raise his mace, I'd teleport instantly in his back and start to combo him during his attack animation. I'm using the same setup in areas filled with fast teleporting wizards. Funny to appear in their back just after they finished teleporting! I noticed that different skills setup for my Rogue change the way I fight immensely. Damage? Or mobility? Or Shadows? So in that sense, you still have planning in Neverwinter and the way you setup your character skills will provide different rotations/abilities etc. and make parts of the game easier or more difficult. Up to you to think and figure things out for your character. And that's only for the rogue, I guess it's similar for other classes. And your wizard example is wrong since in Neverwinter you can change your skills, you can switch between different powers...

    2. No or very little traps that actually mean something, dangerous traps that completly blocks of the party unless they have a rouge in the party, this can naturally be in game, but not in the hour's long footages I have seen, all I saw was that the rouge was "able to steal stuff" ..Steal stuff is just a class bonus" wich i'm sure is added to the other classes in other form of bonuses. I see that the mage has arcane treasures for instance. DDO has these things and plenty of it aswell, from what I can tell Neverwinter does not have it or very little (Bill mentions that a previous dungeon was set up with traps)

    Dangerous traps that blocks party progression would be stupid IMHO because a F2P action game like this should be able to be "soloed" (again my 2 cents), but I can assure you traps can be a pain in the f### A### in Neverwinter. I took a lot of damage in the 2nd solo dungeon with my Dwarf Warrior, while my Rogue could switch all the traps off. Best example I have is the demon boss you kill at LVL 20, the areas before were filled with traps and SO MUCH TIMES I've been obliged to use potions because I triggered too much of these f***** blue traps by accident while fighting mobs in the zone. Not impossible to overcome, just a pain in your #ss, costs you more potions if you're not careful like me so a Rogue is definitely handy :-)

    3. Puzzle dungeons, use your party to progress, solve clever riddles etc . this may very well be in game, but then it makes me wonder why they are showcasing a dungeon that let's your party walk in a straight line from Boss A to Boss B without anykind of obstackles to overcome but monsters. Sure here we have the Foundry, but If the original game design doesnt have these , Im very sceptical towards the limitations in this Foundry aswell. Again DDO has alot of these clever little dungeons.

    Last dungeon I did I had to figure out stuff with statues and how to activate them correctly. Felt like a typical D&D thing. It was the first dungeon of this kind and it was early in the game so I assume there's more difficult puzzles afer this...time will tell but there are definitely puzzles!

    4 . Multiclassing ..Not really needed, but a great way of making a game with even more tactical dept.

    Don't know for this one...just know from the official forums moderator they planned to add sh*loads of new classes...but I don't think there will be multiclassing in this game

    EDIT: Oh, and one last thing, you should see Neverwinter for what it is: a FAST arcadeish MMO like Vindictus, not something like DDO.

     

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member
    Originally posted by tokini

    i dont think people say 4th edition was desigened for easier transition into a videgame, but rather that it was designed to somewhat emulate videogame play at the expense of traditional DnD play style. 

     

    as far as why they would base it upon a failed prduct, well its the most current edition, is it not? maybe that is part of the licensing agreement. seems unlikely they would have wanted to use THACO anyway lol

     

    I have hours hours upon hours with traditional DnD play style Experiance playing 4th and as a 30 year veteran of playing DnD I have to  say some of my best Experiance using any DnD system has come from 4th. 

    Are tactics in 4th? More so than in previous edition if you ask me. Do characters feel heroic by design? Yes and I don't see how that's a bad thing. 

    Take a wizard for example. Previous editions magic system was just absolute horrid. 4th by far was 100 times better. People would complain that wizards lost utility spells. Which is total BS,ritual magic put it all in there for GMs to use.

    The reason 4th flopped was due to essentials releasing. Which was easier to balance and overall a simpler system. Wizards lied to their player base when we were told 4th would continue to be supported alongside essentials. Instead we got essentials books released with typing on the back saying it was compatible with 4th. 4th was full of choices for players to customize their characters as they advanced, while essentials took those choices away and instead you chose your class and It advanced down its prewritten path with very little customization.  Wizards got lazy and screwed the fans of 4th.

    All that being said anytime you have a MAJOR revision of the rules your going to lose players due to them not liking it. Look to EQ1 and EQ2 as a prime example.  Newer is not always better for everyone. Piazo offered essentially the older version for players who did not like the switch.

    i for one have all the 4th edition books. If I want to play DnD again in the future it will be the system I use. I  will not be buying 5th. However right now  my limited PnP game time is being taken up running a Deathwatch game (40k Where players play space marines)? When we get burned out on that and decided to do something differe the it will probably be the new Iron Kingdoms RPG.

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