Originally posted by HeroEvermore This lock really is lame and I do not feel it fully fits into the lore of the game. The factions should have been the guilds. Just makes the game sound "unlegit" to me. All that is going to matter is the gameplay and functions anyway.
Before skyrim some people would say dragons coming back was against lore, that is until they wrote the lore to have that happen.
Big difference though. Players requested for a long time to have Dragons. Can't recall every hearing anyone asking to block 2/3 of the game from exploration per character and race lock factions. One lore change improves gameplay, the other doesn't.
It's not against lore tho, which was he point, Its no more against the lore as having faction specific content in skyrim and morrowind, dragons in skyrim or any other aspect to games that they have added (or even taken away)over the years
I don't feel like you're using your head or think that other people can. There's something called believability in a gameworld. The things happening in TES series are believable IMO, while the faction lock in ESO seems like a knee-jerk response to needing 3 races per faction for a DAoC-esque RvR end game. They just said, "we want a 3 faction endgame," and then, "how about 3 races per faction and make up something to please the masses on why they're teamed up together"
Originally posted by Maelwydd Great, NPC Orcs, Elves, Humans...whatever. I want an Orc character that FIGHTS AGAINST the Bretons and their aliance. I want to freedom to determine what MY character wants to fight for. If I cannot make a character that is a blank template to become whatever I want them to become then the game is not a TES game. Simple as that.
Then... don't play it. Simple as that! Want the game to change around whatever you want? No... either you bend to the rules of the game, or you dont play the game.
Don't like poker rules? Don't play it. The WPS will NOT change poker just because you find it unfair how you can be steamrolled even holding a pair of aces. What you want me to tell you?
Dont play it. lol... easy.
Except now is the time to complain, not after the game is released. Now is the time that developers "have a chance" to drop by fansites and websites like this to read up on how their game is being received. Now is the chance to sway those rules. There's still plenty of time before release. Look at EQNext, they scrapped the original project and started over.
In short, you have a defeatest attitude where you just roll over and become victim, or your just really a fan of the game as is and want other people to shut up and stop complaining about it, which is just a double standard.
Originally posted by Maelwydd Great, NPC Orcs, Elves, Humans...whatever. I want an Orc character that FIGHTS AGAINST the Bretons and their aliance. I want to freedom to determine what MY character wants to fight for. If I cannot make a character that is a blank template to become whatever I want them to become then the game is not a TES game. Simple as that.
Then... don't play it. Simple as that! Want the game to change around whatever you want? No... either you bend to the rules of the game, or you dont play the game.
Don't like poker rules? Don't play it. The WPS will NOT change poker just because you find it unfair how you can be steamrolled even holding a pair of aces. What you want me to tell you?
Dont play it. lol... easy.
Except now is the time to complain, not after the game is released. Now is the time that developers "have a chance" to drop by fansites and websites like this to read up on how their game is being received. Now is the chance to sway those rules. There's still plenty of time before release. Look at EQNext, they scrapped the original project and started over.
In short, you have a defeatest attitude where you just roll over and become victim, or your just really a fan of the game as is and want other people to shut up and stop complaining about it, which is just a double standard.
Theres plenty of fish in the sea. Go play another. Dont screw with a game as good as this is starting to become.
Originally posted by HeroEvermoreThis lock really is lame and I do not feel it fully fits into the lore of the game. The factions should have been the guilds. Just makes the game sound "unlegit" to me. All that is going to matter is the gameplay and functions anyway.
Before skyrim some people would say dragons coming back was against lore, that is until they wrote the lore to have that happen.
Big difference though. Players requested for a long time to have Dragons. Can't recall every hearing anyone asking to block 2/3 of the game from exploration per character and race lock factions. One lore change improves gameplay, the other doesn't.
It's not against lore tho, which was he point, Its no more against the lore as having faction specific content in skyrim and morrowind, dragons in skyrim or any other aspect to games that they have added (or even taken away)over the years
I don't feel like you're using your head or think that other people can. There's something called believability in a gameworld. The things happening in TES series are believable IMO, while the faction lock in ESO seems like a knee-jerk response to needing 3 races per faction for a DAoC-esque RvR end game. They just said, "we want a 3 faction endgame," and then, "how about 3 races per faction and make up something to please the masses on why they're teamed up together"
I don't see how warring factions is hard to believe, the only argument you can seem to come up with is that it hasn't been like it in a tes game before, that doesn't make it hard to believe. I think restrictions on where you can go at a time of war is fairly realistic, and the fact that certain races that normally don't work together are is also realistic when you think about the fact thats its 1k years before the other games.
Alliances change and frequently, that is the realistic view, Germany tried to take over europe and beyond twice yet we are now allied with them, a lot of countries that took slaves now work with countries that they took them from etc etc etc, and thats within the last couple of hundred years. In the 800-1k years between this and the single player games, yes its more than believable.
"The fact that alliances can be made and change multiple times in a millenia is completely ridiculous and you must lack the use of your head to think such a thing possible.....Time traveling dragons? Yeah I'll buy that"
i for one am leening to yes, now not lost 100% , i will give the game a shot but right off the bat 75% intrest is lost due to this flaw.
Once I heard factions I knew it was downhill from there because if a company is willing to make one drastic change from the IP, they will be making others, and they have. Closed faction areas, Races limited to factions, PvP limited to PvP zones, Lore changes...this is just DaoC 2 in a TES skin.
Considering there is nothing in the lore that prohibts factions and multiplayer TES has never been done before then I would say you are wrong because we have no history of lore that far back (when the game is set) so for all intents and purposes ESO is crafting the lore that fits within an unknown time frame in Tamriel.
Being a DAoC 2 is jsut more icing on the cake that this game is gonna kick ass.
Incorrect, there is a TON of lore that PROVES there wasnt a 3 dominion fight going on in this time period...this is taking place during the SECOND ERA and judging by their announcement that we will be able to procliam an emperor by taking and holding the PvP lands, it means that it is taking place AFTER 2E 430, the year the last potentate is assissinated leaving no HEIRs and thus an empty throne...yet, according to lore, there are NO WARS and at only ONE TIME does someone try to invade Cyrodiil but its stopped at Morrowind...and that is in the year 2E 572 (over 100 years later!), the imperial lands are not invaded again until TALOS AKA Tiber Septim invades at the end of 2E, 897.
If they try some slight of hand and mess with the lore by making it before 2E 430 when the Aldmeri Dominion are fighting the Aleesian order to fit what they are making, they are then breaking the lore by allowing a situation where the Imperials can lose, when they didnt, thus basically saying, anything that happens after our DaoC RvR cheap PvP game, like in those TES games, means nothing, because we just changed it all.
Afterall, how can Talos ever become a general in a land that is in chaos from an empty imperial throne, if that throne is taken over by the Dominion and his own lands have long been in captivity thus making him born a servant and altering his life.
Either way TESO is royally effing with TES lore.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I don't see how warring factions is hard to believe, the only argument you can seem to come up with is that it hasn't been like it in a tes game before, that doesn't make it hard to believe. I think restrictions on where you can go at a time of war is fairly realistic, and the fact that certain races that normally don't work together are is also realistic when you think about the fact thats its 1k years before the other games.
Alliances change and frequently, that is the realistic view, Germany tried to take over europe and beyond twice yet we are now allied with them, a lot of countries that took slaves now work with countries that they took them from etc etc etc, and thats within the last couple of hundred years. In the 800-1k years between this and the single player games, yes its more than believable.
"The fact that alliances can be made and change multiple times in a millenia is completely ridiculous and you must lack the use of your head to think such a thing possible.....Time traveling dragons? Yeah I'll buy that"
The argument isn't that warring factions are hard to believe, at least it isn't with me. The problem is it is totally uneccessary. Lets look at this as if TESO was being discussed for the first time...
OK so we have a basic premise of 3 factions at war fighting over the crown. Lets look at the TES games and see what will work with that...
OK so TES games have historically had Great houses and guilds that players can join. Can we creat a 3 faction war out of that?
Sure, how about we have 3 great houses, lets say a Breton merchant lord, an elven faction and Nord perhaps seeing as Skyrim was the last game.
OK so we have 3 houses fighting for control of the crown. These 3 houses will want allies so that will probably allow us to use guilds, both the normal guilds (like Mage, Fighter, Dark brotherhood and thieves guild, incorporate some of the quests available to do work for a house of the players choosing and slowly building up character progression to getting each player to choose a faction to join) and player run guilds who can sign up for a particular house of their choosing (give the guild house related quests as well so that players can earn guild points to increse their standing in the guild and the house).
OK so we have 3 faction warfare, player run guild quests to serve the houses, NPC run guild quests to serve the houses, all nicely linked together to keep the freedom of choice, the freedom of movement and involvement in the PvP if people so desire.
See why I have a problem believeing this game will be anything more then a bog standard MMO lacking any imagination or creativity....
Seriously, it was piss easy to come up with something that sticks to the current lore, doesn't remove the player freedoms people expect from a TES game, maintain 3 faction warfare and have none of this bullshit caused by their system to have 3 faction warfare fuck around with the PvE. They have been mulling this over since 2007 - 6 years to come up with an atrociously bad design concept that is totally uneccessary. That is the worst thing, it is totally uneccessary to have all these restrictions and could have been done to fit with what TES players expect without ANY issues.
Originally posted by deakonI don't see how warring factions is hard to believe, the only argument you can seem to come up with is that it hasn't been like it in a tes game before, that doesn't make it hard to believe. I think restrictions on where you can go at a time of war is fairly realistic, and the fact that certain races that normally don't work together are is also realistic when you think about the fact thats its 1k years before the other games.Alliances change and frequently, that is the realistic view, Germany tried to take over europe and beyond twice yet we are now allied with them, a lot of countries that took slaves now work with countries that they took them from etc etc etc, and thats within the last couple of hundred years. In the 800-1k years between this and the single player games, yes its more than believable."The fact that alliances can be made and change multiple times in a millenia is completely ridiculous and you must lack the use of your head to think such a thing possible.....Time traveling dragons? Yeah I'll buy that"
The argument isn't that warring factions are hard to believe, at least it isn't with me. The problem is it is totally uneccessary. Lets look at this as if TESO was being discussed for the first time...OK so we have a basic premise of 3 factions at war fighting over the crown. Lets look at the TES games and see what will work with that...OK so TES games have historically had Great houses and guilds that players can join. Can we creat a 3 faction war out of that?Sure, how about we have 3 great houses, lets say a Breton merchant lord, an elven faction and Nord perhaps seeing as Skyrim was the last game.OK so we have 3 houses fighting for control of the crown. These 3 houses will want allies so that will probably allow us to use guilds, both the normal guilds (like Mage, Fighter, Dark brotherhood and thieves guild, incorporate some of the quests available to do work for a house of the players choosing and slowly building up character progression to getting each player to choose a faction to join) and player run guilds who can sign up for a particular house of their choosing (give the guild house related quests as well so that players can earn guild points to increse their standing in the guild and the house).OK so we have 3 faction warfare, player run guild quests to serve the houses, NPC run guild quests to serve the houses, all nicely linked together to keep the freedom of choice, the freedom of movement and involvement in the PvP if people so desire.See why I have a problem believeing this game will be anything more then a bog standard MMO lacking any imagination or creativity....Seriously, it was piss easy to come up with something that sticks to the current lore, doesn't remove the player freedoms people expect from a TES game, maintain 3 faction warfare and have none of this bullshit caused by their system to have 3 faction warfare fuck around with the PvE. They have been mulling this over since 2007 - 6 years to come up with an atrociously bad design concept that is totally uneccessary. That is the worst thing, it is totally uneccessary to have all these restrictions and could have been done to fit with what TES players expect without ANY issues.
I get that you don't like it, I also understand there were ways they could have done it where we all have access to everything on one character and all faction looked the same etc
Thing is, I don't want that, I played a mmo recently with a good story per faction but everything else was pretty much shared, didn't work out too well.
Complaining about something thats such a big part of the story line this late in development is pointless, it would be like asking for no dragons in skyrim less than 12 months from release, it would almost mean starting again from scratch.
And in that theory... does the Breton share the Mages guild with the Nord and the Elf? You and your enemies constantly cross paths but because its a safe haven, theres no fighting? Thing is... you and your enemies share the same guild? What the... what?
This isnt wow... you dont go deliver quests where the Orc is delivering his... theres no "dalaran"... no safe haven. Want to stay safe? Stay at home. You know... behind your borders. Where THEY cant go.
Plus there will be more than enough pve content shared in cyrodiil as well...
I dont see how this is such a tough concept for ppl that didnt play DAoC... seriously. Is this really that hard? Why are we discussing something that makes perfect sense?
And in that theory... does the Breton share the Mages guild with the Nord and the Elf? You and your enemies constantly cross paths but because its a safe haven, theres no fighting? Thing is... you and your enemies share the same guild? What the... what?
This isnt wow... you dont go deliver quests where the Orc is delivering his... theres no "dalaran"... no safe haven. Want to stay safe? Stay at home. You know... behind your borders. Where THEY cant go.
Plus there will be more than enough pve content shared in cyrodiil as well...
I dont see how this is such a tough concept for ppl that didnt play DAoC... seriously. Is this really that hard? Why are we discussing something that makes perfect sense?
Do you not get that it is an artificial wall? And folks around here just love artificial walls.
Build your own world, and you can come up with some (strained) excuses for this. The problem is they want to appeal to Elder Scrolls fans, who kinda expect a somewhat Elder Scrolls consistant world. They can't let other opposing races wander about, because that would lead to asshat gankers. They have to have three factions with contiguous land. They just went and divvied up the map, and tried to come up with an excuse.
It's a meta game decision that made things much easier for the developers. But they are working with an established background, which makes some of their choices rankle. Doesn't mean I won't play, if it is good. But it is definitely a fudged set up to fit their defined mechanic.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
And in that theory... does the Breton share the Mages guild with the Nord and the Elf? You and your enemies constantly cross paths but because its a safe haven, theres no fighting? Thing is... you and your enemies share the same guild? What the... what?
This isnt wow... you dont go deliver quests where the Orc is delivering his... theres no "dalaran"... no safe haven. Want to stay safe? Stay at home. You know... behind your borders. Where THEY cant go.
Plus there will be more than enough pve content shared in cyrodiil as well...
I dont see how this is such a tough concept for ppl that didnt play DAoC... seriously. Is this really that hard? Why are we discussing something that makes perfect sense?
Do you not get that it is an artificial wall? And folks around here just love artificial walls.
Build your own world, and you can come up with some (strained) excuses for this. The problem is they want to appeal to Elder Scrolls fans, who kinda expect a somewhat Elder Scrolls consistant world. They can't let other opposing races wander about, because that would lead to asshat gankers. They have to have three factions with contiguous land. They just went and divvied up the map, and tried to come up with an excuse.
It's a meta game decision that made things much easier for the developers. But they are working with an established background, which makes some of their choices rankle. Doesn't mean I won't play, if it is good. But it is definitely a fudged set up to fit their defined mechanic.
Its not an "artificial wall"... its a REAL wall (actually it will probably be exactly a wall... with bricks and stones with guards and crap that one shot you if you get near - cant get any more real than that!). And it worked in DAoC... and its still the only mmo ever that got pvp really done right.
I agree, the idea sucks and it was a bad decision, plain and simple. There are more successful games out there than not which (I will go so far as to say) encourage world exploration, regardless of who's territory it is. To take away going into enemy territory is completely robbing the MMORPG community of obtaining a sense of adrenaline and rush.
I don't think the word 'artificial' means what you think it does.....
A wall you could sneak across is not artificial. But that opens up a different can of worms.
I don't have issues with the actual mechanic. Didn't play DAoC (the character customization looked awful), but from what I hear, they did a great job with their PvP system. Everyone had something they could do. The problem comes when they try to weld that to something with different expectations. For me, I don't PvP much, and won't play anything that doesn't allow me to opt out. So the changes for the factions don't add much value for me. Except...I do like to play alts, so I will probably end up with one on each side. If it's enjoyable.
The real problem here is that the game is named THE ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE and not DARK AGE OF CAMELOT 2. Different expectations get triggered.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Pretty much done trying to make my point, if people don't get it they never will and are stuck in their way.
Just an observation though, it speaks volumes about the game design when people hardly ever refer to a TES game when trying to justify whay has been done. Lore is refered to, but game mechanics are not used. That is the sad part about this game. It isn't an online TES game but DAOC2 in TES clothing.
To summarise the obvious, but nevetheless entirely valid and representative points made here;
1. The game's faction mix is based entirely on geographic location and not lore - there shouldn't even be a discussion here - it is blindingly obvious
2. The devs at Zenimax have taken the TES IP and stretched it over the DAOC model, not the other way round
3. The faction lock flies entirely in the face of the long established and very popular TES way of doing things (i.e. player freedom of movement and choice)
4. The TES name is being used to popularise the creation of DAOC 2 (why else did they start with button/cooldown UI and then change to mana/health/stam after mass complaints?)
5. Invisible walls will have to be the way they keep factions regions seperate unless they introduce mountain ranges etc. which have never existed in Tamriel
6. Lore has been twisted until it screams to fit over the desired DAOC framework (the orcs example is an excellent illustration but there are plenty of others)
7. The fact is - factional DAOC play could have been combined with freedom of movement by having non-racial factions and a flag system locking players down only after they had chosen
8. The fact is - methods could be introduced to allow players to visit other faction areas - and they haven't said they are even considering this
9. Faction locks mean non-access to quests and dungeons which will be analysed to death and ANY perceived 'unfair advantage' will be rankled about endlessly
10. Faction lock means a staggeringly VAST amount of content has to be created to fill the PvE expectations of each player playing on their main. Regardless of whether you think this has actually been accomplished, this time would STILL have been much better spent making 50% more freely accessible content better for everyone - with greater choice for all. Instead it is likely there has been a great deal of cut, paste and reskin to fill the multiple content voids created by such a large world chopped into exclusive slices - three PvE MMO's in one is most likley a folly they will come to regret.
I have heard quite enough now from the myopic PvP-centric single line or paragraph posting players who think because Cyrodil PvP has a good model to work from (DAOC) that it is perfectly ok that other central and beloved aspects of TES should be trampled under the boots of expedient ex-DAOC Devs.
You CANNOT have the whole DAOC model without ripping up some core elements of TES. You CAN however take the best elements of DAOC and combine them sympathetically with TES...
... Zenimax however have not left themselves enough time to realise the coffee smells stale and needs to be re-brewed...
I encourage EVERY beta tester to concentrate on the issues with faction lock and be very vocal about every little thing about it that they don't like. Perhaps then there is a minute chance we'll have the 2014 release of a game which will work for everyone...
LOL wow this game is just getting worse by the minute. Lackluster visuals, robotic animations, "soft-lock" target based combat system (which none of the previous TES games had), social networking integration (lol really?), overabundance of lore articles but nothing in regards to gameplay, and now this: faction-locked system. Yep, a bright future indeed!
To be fair, we've yet to test the beta to see how the game is really like. But I'll have to lower my expectations drastically...
Lies, none of what you said is true. Links to that footage? Ya didn't think so.
To summarise the obvious, but nevetheless entirely valid and representative points made here;
1. The game's faction mix is based entirely on geographic location and not lore - there shouldn't even be a discussion here - it is blindingly obvious
2. The devs at Zenimax have taken the TES IP and stretched it over the DAOC model, not the other way round
3. The faction lock flies entirely in the face of the long established and very popular TES way of doing things (i.e. player freedom of movement and choice)
4. The TES name is being used to popularise the creation of DAOC 2 (why else did they start with button/cooldown UI and then change to mana/health/stam after mass complaints?)
5. Invisible walls will have to be the way they keep factions regions seperate unless they introduce mountain ranges etc. which have never existed in Tamriel
6. Lore has been twisted until it screams to fit over the desired DAOC framework (the orcs example is an excellent illustration but there are plenty of others)
7. The fact is - factional DAOC play could have been combined with freedom of movement by having non-racial factions and a flag system locking players down only after they had chosen
8. The fact is - methods could be introduced to allow players to visit other faction areas - and they haven't said they are even considering this
9. Faction locks mean non-access to quests and dungeons which will be analysed to death and ANY perceived 'unfair advantage' will be rankled about endlessly
10. Faction lock means a staggeringly VAST amount of content has to be created to fill the PvE expectations of each player playing on their main. Regardless of whether you think this has actually been accomplished, this time would STILL have been much better spent making 50% more freely accessible content better for everyone - with greater choice for all. Instead it is likely there has been a great deal of cut, paste and reskin to fill the multiple content voids created by such a large world chopped into exclusive slices - three PvE MMO's in one is most likley a folly they will come to regret.
I have heard quite enough now from the myopic PvP-centric single line or paragraph posting players who think because Cyrodil PvP has a good model to work from (DAOC) that it is perfectly ok that other central and beloved aspects of TES should be trampled under the boots of expedient ex-DAOC Devs.
You CANNOT have the whole DAOC model without ripping up some core elements of TES. You CAN however take the best elements of DAOC and combine them sympathetically with TES...
... Zenimax however have not left themselves enough time to realise the coffee smells stale and needs to be re-brewed...
I encourage EVERY beta tester to concentrate on the issues with faction lock and be very vocal about every little thing about it that they don't like. Perhaps then there is a minute chance we'll have the 2014 release of a game which will work for everyone...
Caliburn 1 yeah agree 2 sort of, I'm glad they've thought about the game as a mmo, and not just made a sprpg with some coop features - e.g. swtor. A fantasy eve would have been a better fit, but would sell less as it would frighten all the carebears. I'm glad they've copied from daoc instead of bloody wow like everyone else. 3 yeah 4 a daoc 2 would sell anyway, they don't have to disguise it, likewise so would a ac3 or an eq3. There isn't some grand plan to make daoc 2 but people think daoc was bad or something so we need to disguise it. People who played daoc, loved daoc. 5 no I strongly suspect they will be real walls. 6 err you've made this point twice already 7&8 the fact is - that wouldnt be daoc play, that would be tsw play, remind me again how successful that was pvp wise. 9 this is good, stirs the hornets nest, likewise each side having unique classes. 10 and this Is a problem how? You are moaning about having 3 * the content? Would you rather them do it on the cheap like tsw and gw2 and have everyone share content?
I intend to be vocal about the faction look. Vocal in a "stick to your vision, don't listen to the whiners, these guys turn up every beta trying to turn new games into bloody EQ"
Not really. I never had much interest to begin with.
After I read the Game Informer article last year, I knew this was not going to be my kind of game.
They said it would take about 120 hours to get to max level, varied by playstyle. It'll be another Everyone is maxing out in the first week, Flash in the pan PVP game. No thanks.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
To summarise the obvious, but nevetheless entirely valid and representative points made here;
1. The game's faction mix is based entirely on geographic location and not lore - there shouldn't even be a discussion here - it is blindingly obvious
2. The devs at Zenimax have taken the TES IP and stretched it over the DAOC model, not the other way round
3. The faction lock flies entirely in the face of the long established and very popular TES way of doing things (i.e. player freedom of movement and choice)
4. The TES name is being used to popularise the creation of DAOC 2 (why else did they start with button/cooldown UI and then change to mana/health/stam after mass complaints?)
5. Invisible walls will have to be the way they keep factions regions seperate unless they introduce mountain ranges etc. which have never existed in Tamriel
6. Lore has been twisted until it screams to fit over the desired DAOC framework (the orcs example is an excellent illustration but there are plenty of others)
7. The fact is - factional DAOC play could have been combined with freedom of movement by having non-racial factions and a flag system locking players down only after they had chosen
8. The fact is - methods could be introduced to allow players to visit other faction areas - and they haven't said they are even considering this
9. Faction locks mean non-access to quests and dungeons which will be analysed to death and ANY perceived 'unfair advantage' will be rankled about endlessly
10. Faction lock means a staggeringly VAST amount of content has to be created to fill the PvE expectations of each player playing on their main. Regardless of whether you think this has actually been accomplished, this time would STILL have been much better spent making 50% more freely accessible content better for everyone - with greater choice for all. Instead it is likely there has been a great deal of cut, paste and reskin to fill the multiple content voids created by such a large world chopped into exclusive slices - three PvE MMO's in one is most likley a folly they will come to regret.
I have heard quite enough now from the myopic PvP-centric single line or paragraph posting players who think because Cyrodil PvP has a good model to work from (DAOC) that it is perfectly ok that other central and beloved aspects of TES should be trampled under the boots of expedient ex-DAOC Devs.
You CANNOT have the whole DAOC model without ripping up some core elements of TES. You CAN however take the best elements of DAOC and combine them sympathetically with TES...
... Zenimax however have not left themselves enough time to realise the coffee smells stale and needs to be re-brewed...
I encourage EVERY beta tester to concentrate on the issues with faction lock and be very vocal about every little thing about it that they don't like. Perhaps then there is a minute chance we'll have the 2014 release of a game which will work for everyone...
Excelent summary.
I also want to support this post. It's not that any of us don't like DAoC, because I'm sure we all do. It was my first MMORPG after all, but we expected a TES game, not a DAoC 2 when they announced ESO.
I have not yet lost all interest, but I lost all hope of this becoming an Elder Scroll game inspired by Morrowind and being on par with the Elder Scroll series on offering maximum freedom of choice in gameplay.
I'm still interested to see what they've got to show us when the game will hit the stores. I can't loose interest in some game just because there's this 1 feature that I find bad. I knew from the begining it'll be an mmorpg and with that in mind I expected them to make faction locks and other mmorpgish crappy adjustments. It would be great if your actions and choices would actually determine what faction will you part with but I guess they had something else in mind and I'll just have to wait and see since it's harder to make an mmorpg which would give you the absolute freedom like you have in morrowind.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
To summarise the obvious, but nevetheless entirely valid and representative points made here;
1. The game's faction mix is based entirely on geographic location and not lore - there shouldn't even be a discussion here - it is blindingly obvious
2. The devs at Zenimax have taken the TES IP and stretched it over the DAOC model, not the other way round
3. The faction lock flies entirely in the face of the long established and very popular TES way of doing things (i.e. player freedom of movement and choice)
4. The TES name is being used to popularise the creation of DAOC 2 (why else did they start with button/cooldown UI and then change to mana/health/stam after mass complaints?)
5. Invisible walls will have to be the way they keep factions regions seperate unless they introduce mountain ranges etc. which have never existed in Tamriel
6. Lore has been twisted until it screams to fit over the desired DAOC framework (the orcs example is an excellent illustration but there are plenty of others)
7. The fact is - factional DAOC play could have been combined with freedom of movement by having non-racial factions and a flag system locking players down only after they had chosen
8. The fact is - methods could be introduced to allow players to visit other faction areas - and they haven't said they are even considering this
9. Faction locks mean non-access to quests and dungeons which will be analysed to death and ANY perceived 'unfair advantage' will be rankled about endlessly
10. Faction lock means a staggeringly VAST amount of content has to be created to fill the PvE expectations of each player playing on their main. Regardless of whether you think this has actually been accomplished, this time would STILL have been much better spent making 50% more freely accessible content better for everyone - with greater choice for all. Instead it is likely there has been a great deal of cut, paste and reskin to fill the multiple content voids created by such a large world chopped into exclusive slices - three PvE MMO's in one is most likley a folly they will come to regret.
I have heard quite enough now from the myopic PvP-centric single line or paragraph posting players who think because Cyrodil PvP has a good model to work from (DAOC) that it is perfectly ok that other central and beloved aspects of TES should be trampled under the boots of expedient ex-DAOC Devs.
You CANNOT have the whole DAOC model without ripping up some core elements of TES. You CAN however take the best elements of DAOC and combine them sympathetically with TES...
... Zenimax however have not left themselves enough time to realise the coffee smells stale and needs to be re-brewed...
I encourage EVERY beta tester to concentrate on the issues with faction lock and be very vocal about every little thing about it that they don't like. Perhaps then there is a minute chance we'll have the 2014 release of a game which will work for everyone...
Excelent summary.
I also want to support this post. It's not that any of us don't like DAoC, because I'm sure we all do. It was my first MMORPG after all, but we expected a TES game, not a DAoC 2 when they announced ESO.
Originally posted by Astraeis I have not yet lost all interest, but I lost all hope of this becoming an Elder Scroll game inspired by Morrowind and being on par with the Elder Scroll series on offering maximum freedom of choice in gameplay.
Definitely agree with both of these. I haven't played DAoC, but it sounds to be mostly a PvP game. I never played a TES game until after I heard about ESO.
I hear alot of PvP focused people and DAoC fans screaming, "The game is perfect because it copies what DAoC started"
I hear alot of PvE focused people and TES fans screaming, "NOO! get DAoC out of my TES game and where is my freedom and choice??!?!?!"
Well from someone who hasn't played either DAoC or TES, but is a huge MMO player starting from Everquest to Matrix Online, WoW, Aion, Rift, Guild Wars, SWTOR, EVE Online, Lineage....I mean christ I could go on, but the point is I'm almost strickly an MMO gamer.
From my point of view I stand more with the TES fans in that my interest is almost gone for this game. Not for the races locked to factions, but factions locked to certain zones. People speak of WoW PvP being terribly instanced but having to only PvP in Cyrodil is the same exact thing just on a larger scale. An MMO is supposed to be MASSIVE and as such it is a horrible slap in the face when you cut up the world into little zones.
Also, why are PvPers mostly the ones who are loving the zone and faction locks? So you honestly feel that factions being locked fits into a TES universe or does it just help your PvP to be better because it's been tried, tested, and true in DAoC?
I dont see a balance here in PvE and PvP, what I am seeing is this to be a PvP game with PvE sprinkled on the side. That worked out so well with Warhammer:Age of Reckoning(vomit).
Very sad that this will not be as revitalizing to the MMO genre as I previously thought. Instead it seems the MMO renaissance will have to wait until Project Titan.
Comments
I don't feel like you're using your head or think that other people can. There's something called believability in a gameworld. The things happening in TES series are believable IMO, while the faction lock in ESO seems like a knee-jerk response to needing 3 races per faction for a DAoC-esque RvR end game. They just said, "we want a 3 faction endgame," and then, "how about 3 races per faction and make up something to please the masses on why they're teamed up together"
Except now is the time to complain, not after the game is released. Now is the time that developers "have a chance" to drop by fansites and websites like this to read up on how their game is being received. Now is the chance to sway those rules. There's still plenty of time before release. Look at EQNext, they scrapped the original project and started over.
In short, you have a defeatest attitude where you just roll over and become victim, or your just really a fan of the game as is and want other people to shut up and stop complaining about it, which is just a double standard.
Theres plenty of fish in the sea. Go play another. Dont screw with a game as good as this is starting to become.
I don't see how warring factions is hard to believe, the only argument you can seem to come up with is that it hasn't been like it in a tes game before, that doesn't make it hard to believe. I think restrictions on where you can go at a time of war is fairly realistic, and the fact that certain races that normally don't work together are is also realistic when you think about the fact thats its 1k years before the other games.
Alliances change and frequently, that is the realistic view, Germany tried to take over europe and beyond twice yet we are now allied with them, a lot of countries that took slaves now work with countries that they took them from etc etc etc, and thats within the last couple of hundred years. In the 800-1k years between this and the single player games, yes its more than believable.
"The fact that alliances can be made and change multiple times in a millenia is completely ridiculous and you must lack the use of your head to think such a thing possible.....Time traveling dragons? Yeah I'll buy that"
There's plenty of history of various factions at war.
Incorrect, there is a TON of lore that PROVES there wasnt a 3 dominion fight going on in this time period...this is taking place during the SECOND ERA and judging by their announcement that we will be able to procliam an emperor by taking and holding the PvP lands, it means that it is taking place AFTER 2E 430, the year the last potentate is assissinated leaving no HEIRs and thus an empty throne...yet, according to lore, there are NO WARS and at only ONE TIME does someone try to invade Cyrodiil but its stopped at Morrowind...and that is in the year 2E 572 (over 100 years later!), the imperial lands are not invaded again until TALOS AKA Tiber Septim invades at the end of 2E, 897.
If they try some slight of hand and mess with the lore by making it before 2E 430 when the Aldmeri Dominion are fighting the Aleesian order to fit what they are making, they are then breaking the lore by allowing a situation where the Imperials can lose, when they didnt, thus basically saying, anything that happens after our DaoC RvR cheap PvP game, like in those TES games, means nothing, because we just changed it all.
Afterall, how can Talos ever become a general in a land that is in chaos from an empty imperial throne, if that throne is taken over by the Dominion and his own lands have long been in captivity thus making him born a servant and altering his life.
Either way TESO is royally effing with TES lore.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
The argument isn't that warring factions are hard to believe, at least it isn't with me. The problem is it is totally uneccessary. Lets look at this as if TESO was being discussed for the first time...
OK so we have a basic premise of 3 factions at war fighting over the crown. Lets look at the TES games and see what will work with that...
OK so TES games have historically had Great houses and guilds that players can join. Can we creat a 3 faction war out of that?
Sure, how about we have 3 great houses, lets say a Breton merchant lord, an elven faction and Nord perhaps seeing as Skyrim was the last game.
OK so we have 3 houses fighting for control of the crown. These 3 houses will want allies so that will probably allow us to use guilds, both the normal guilds (like Mage, Fighter, Dark brotherhood and thieves guild, incorporate some of the quests available to do work for a house of the players choosing and slowly building up character progression to getting each player to choose a faction to join) and player run guilds who can sign up for a particular house of their choosing (give the guild house related quests as well so that players can earn guild points to increse their standing in the guild and the house).
OK so we have 3 faction warfare, player run guild quests to serve the houses, NPC run guild quests to serve the houses, all nicely linked together to keep the freedom of choice, the freedom of movement and involvement in the PvP if people so desire.
See why I have a problem believeing this game will be anything more then a bog standard MMO lacking any imagination or creativity....
Seriously, it was piss easy to come up with something that sticks to the current lore, doesn't remove the player freedoms people expect from a TES game, maintain 3 faction warfare and have none of this bullshit caused by their system to have 3 faction warfare fuck around with the PvE. They have been mulling this over since 2007 - 6 years to come up with an atrociously bad design concept that is totally uneccessary. That is the worst thing, it is totally uneccessary to have all these restrictions and could have been done to fit with what TES players expect without ANY issues.
I get that you don't like it, I also understand there were ways they could have done it where we all have access to everything on one character and all faction looked the same etc
Thing is, I don't want that, I played a mmo recently with a good story per faction but everything else was pretty much shared, didn't work out too well.
Complaining about something thats such a big part of the story line this late in development is pointless, it would be like asking for no dragons in skyrim less than 12 months from release, it would almost mean starting again from scratch.
And in that theory... does the Breton share the Mages guild with the Nord and the Elf? You and your enemies constantly cross paths but because its a safe haven, theres no fighting? Thing is... you and your enemies share the same guild? What the... what?
This isnt wow... you dont go deliver quests where the Orc is delivering his... theres no "dalaran"... no safe haven. Want to stay safe? Stay at home. You know... behind your borders. Where THEY cant go.
Plus there will be more than enough pve content shared in cyrodiil as well...
I dont see how this is such a tough concept for ppl that didnt play DAoC... seriously. Is this really that hard? Why are we discussing something that makes perfect sense?
Do you not get that it is an artificial wall? And folks around here just love artificial walls.
Build your own world, and you can come up with some (strained) excuses for this. The problem is they want to appeal to Elder Scrolls fans, who kinda expect a somewhat Elder Scrolls consistant world. They can't let other opposing races wander about, because that would lead to asshat gankers. They have to have three factions with contiguous land. They just went and divvied up the map, and tried to come up with an excuse.
It's a meta game decision that made things much easier for the developers. But they are working with an established background, which makes some of their choices rankle. Doesn't mean I won't play, if it is good. But it is definitely a fudged set up to fit their defined mechanic.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Its not an "artificial wall"... its a REAL wall (actually it will probably be exactly a wall... with bricks and stones with guards and crap that one shot you if you get near - cant get any more real than that!). And it worked in DAoC... and its still the only mmo ever that got pvp really done right.
I don't think the word 'artificial' means what you think it does.....
A wall you could sneak across is not artificial. But that opens up a different can of worms.
I don't have issues with the actual mechanic. Didn't play DAoC (the character customization looked awful), but from what I hear, they did a great job with their PvP system. Everyone had something they could do. The problem comes when they try to weld that to something with different expectations. For me, I don't PvP much, and won't play anything that doesn't allow me to opt out. So the changes for the factions don't add much value for me. Except...I do like to play alts, so I will probably end up with one on each side. If it's enjoyable.
The real problem here is that the game is named THE ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE and not DARK AGE OF CAMELOT 2. Different expectations get triggered.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Pretty much done trying to make my point, if people don't get it they never will and are stuck in their way.
Just an observation though, it speaks volumes about the game design when people hardly ever refer to a TES game when trying to justify whay has been done. Lore is refered to, but game mechanics are not used. That is the sad part about this game. It isn't an online TES game but DAOC2 in TES clothing.
To summarise the obvious, but nevetheless entirely valid and representative points made here;
1. The game's faction mix is based entirely on geographic location and not lore - there shouldn't even be a discussion here - it is blindingly obvious
2. The devs at Zenimax have taken the TES IP and stretched it over the DAOC model, not the other way round
3. The faction lock flies entirely in the face of the long established and very popular TES way of doing things (i.e. player freedom of movement and choice)
4. The TES name is being used to popularise the creation of DAOC 2 (why else did they start with button/cooldown UI and then change to mana/health/stam after mass complaints?)
5. Invisible walls will have to be the way they keep factions regions seperate unless they introduce mountain ranges etc. which have never existed in Tamriel
6. Lore has been twisted until it screams to fit over the desired DAOC framework (the orcs example is an excellent illustration but there are plenty of others)
7. The fact is - factional DAOC play could have been combined with freedom of movement by having non-racial factions and a flag system locking players down only after they had chosen
8. The fact is - methods could be introduced to allow players to visit other faction areas - and they haven't said they are even considering this
9. Faction locks mean non-access to quests and dungeons which will be analysed to death and ANY perceived 'unfair advantage' will be rankled about endlessly
10. Faction lock means a staggeringly VAST amount of content has to be created to fill the PvE expectations of each player playing on their main. Regardless of whether you think this has actually been accomplished, this time would STILL have been much better spent making 50% more freely accessible content better for everyone - with greater choice for all. Instead it is likely there has been a great deal of cut, paste and reskin to fill the multiple content voids created by such a large world chopped into exclusive slices - three PvE MMO's in one is most likley a folly they will come to regret.
I have heard quite enough now from the myopic PvP-centric single line or paragraph posting players who think because Cyrodil PvP has a good model to work from (DAOC) that it is perfectly ok that other central and beloved aspects of TES should be trampled under the boots of expedient ex-DAOC Devs.
You CANNOT have the whole DAOC model without ripping up some core elements of TES. You CAN however take the best elements of DAOC and combine them sympathetically with TES...
... Zenimax however have not left themselves enough time to realise the coffee smells stale and needs to be re-brewed...
I encourage EVERY beta tester to concentrate on the issues with faction lock and be very vocal about every little thing about it that they don't like. Perhaps then there is a minute chance we'll have the 2014 release of a game which will work for everyone...
lmao ... made my day
Excelent summary.
1 yeah agree
2 sort of, I'm glad they've thought about the game as a mmo, and not just made a sprpg with some coop features - e.g. swtor. A fantasy eve would have been a better fit, but would sell less as it would frighten all the carebears. I'm glad they've copied from daoc instead of bloody wow like everyone else.
3 yeah
4 a daoc 2 would sell anyway, they don't have to disguise it, likewise so would a ac3 or an eq3. There isn't some grand plan to make daoc 2 but people think daoc was bad or something so we need to disguise it. People who played daoc, loved daoc.
5 no I strongly suspect they will be real walls.
6 err you've made this point twice already
7&8 the fact is - that wouldnt be daoc play, that would be tsw play, remind me again how successful that was pvp wise.
9 this is good, stirs the hornets nest, likewise each side having unique classes.
10 and this Is a problem how? You are moaning about having 3 * the content? Would you rather them do it on the cheap like tsw and gw2 and have everyone share content?
I intend to be vocal about the faction look. Vocal in a "stick to your vision, don't listen to the whiners, these guys turn up every beta trying to turn new games into bloody EQ"
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Has faction lock made me lose interest?
Not really. I never had much interest to begin with.
After I read the Game Informer article last year, I knew this was not going to be my kind of game.
They said it would take about 120 hours to get to max level, varied by playstyle. It'll be another Everyone is maxing out in the first week, Flash in the pan PVP game. No thanks.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
I also want to support this post. It's not that any of us don't like DAoC, because I'm sure we all do. It was my first MMORPG after all, but we expected a TES game, not a DAoC 2 when they announced ESO.
It takes one to know one.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Definitely agree with both of these. I haven't played DAoC, but it sounds to be mostly a PvP game. I never played a TES game until after I heard about ESO.
I hear alot of PvP focused people and DAoC fans screaming, "The game is perfect because it copies what DAoC started"
I hear alot of PvE focused people and TES fans screaming, "NOO! get DAoC out of my TES game and where is my freedom and choice??!?!?!"
Well from someone who hasn't played either DAoC or TES, but is a huge MMO player starting from Everquest to Matrix Online, WoW, Aion, Rift, Guild Wars, SWTOR, EVE Online, Lineage....I mean christ I could go on, but the point is I'm almost strickly an MMO gamer.
From my point of view I stand more with the TES fans in that my interest is almost gone for this game. Not for the races locked to factions, but factions locked to certain zones. People speak of WoW PvP being terribly instanced but having to only PvP in Cyrodil is the same exact thing just on a larger scale. An MMO is supposed to be MASSIVE and as such it is a horrible slap in the face when you cut up the world into little zones.
Also, why are PvPers mostly the ones who are loving the zone and faction locks? So you honestly feel that factions being locked fits into a TES universe or does it just help your PvP to be better because it's been tried, tested, and true in DAoC?
I dont see a balance here in PvE and PvP, what I am seeing is this to be a PvP game with PvE sprinkled on the side. That worked out so well with Warhammer:Age of Reckoning(vomit).
Very sad that this will not be as revitalizing to the MMO genre as I previously thought. Instead it seems the MMO renaissance will have to wait until Project Titan.