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Fun has been made the reward for Progression: Well how about other way around? Progression be made t
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
Now a day in the MMO genre, developers as well as the community has come to allow, "PROGRESSION" to become the defining factor of what a MMO is.
People say things like
"If you dont like grinding, than MMOs arent for you!"
Well grinding is just for progression, so a reward of "FUN" can be given at the end of the progression grind.
I will use a few examples:
*In Guild Wars 2, a player may find dungeons to be fun. But in order to have that fun, the player must first Grind the Progression of levels 1-30 before that "FUN" unlocks.
*In Rift, if a player finds Raid Dungeons to be fun, they are forced to first grind progression from 1-50, or in the current case, 1-60 in order to unlock that "FUN".
*In GW2 and Rift, you get points for their tree systems each time you level. So if you find it "FUN" to create builds, you have to first grind progression from 1 to max level to unlock that "FUN".
the list goes on.
Fun has become second to Progression.
Well why not flip that around, and make Progression second to Fun?
Just going out, and having fun, and progress accordingly. Not being locked away from the Fun just to force people to grind progression with a lame carrot on a stick design like this.
I know most MMO do not put fun before progression, and I know most MMO developers in the future wont change the dynamics of the genre's stereotypes. But perhaps its worth looking into.
I am tired of new MMOs locking me away from fun features just because I am not a proper level, or not a proper rep with a NPC faction, or because I dont have the gear needed, or any other reason to grind progression before I can access the fun.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Disagree. I think most people find the progression itself fun, and the activities that let you progress to be fun. At least until you understand that particular game/puzzle/quest/raid/dungeon then you move on.
Isn't fun the reward for spending my leisure time this way?
As a logical test, let's see what happens when we replace "progression" with another noun, say "work"? Would work feel like a reward for fun?
"why not flip that around, and make work second to Fun?"
No, that doesn't sound at all appealing. That sounds like, you know, normal life. No reason to seek escapism if the reward is more work, why play?
I think a lot of gamers could benefit reading Martin Gardner (and other mathematicians) on game and puzzle theory. They seem to get bogged down in these dead-end theoretical constructions that leave out the primary goal of logging on to play a game in the first place.
Put it another way--if (progression, work, whatever) is more important than the primary goal of me logging in (fun)--why log in at all?
Koster wrote an entire book around that premise, didn't he?
P.S. Don't feel bad OP, you mistake is a very common one--these variables (progression, work, grind, fun) are not independent variables. Their dependency is actually the entire game. A complex problem that defies simple answers.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well using that example, work is sort of like "grind of progression" in a MMO. You get more money in the end. Money is the reward, because the more you grind(work) the more money you get which leads to spending, which is the fun.
but if the job was doing something you find fun, such as a sports player or a singer, etc, whatever you enjoy, the progresion (aka the increase money ) doesn't stop. It actually comes while you have fun. It's the reward for having fun doing what you enjoy doing.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
How about we skip progression and let "fun" be the reward for playing?
The conundrum here, is that people operate on insentives. This applies to all aspects of life, but is particularly important when it comes to gaming.
Logically it makes sense to play a game for 'fun'. However, most people will not play a game, if they don't feel like they're getting something out of it. Perhaps the biggest exception to this, is in PvP-based games. PvP-oriented games tend to operate around the incentive of winning, or being 'the best'. It's based entirely around competition, and the competition is open enough that you are free to persue that goal in any number of ways.
However, there is quite a large demographic of gamers who either don't like PvP, or don't prefer it. This means a game has to operate on a different set of rules. The insentives come from either beating the system, getting the best rewards (or the most), or completing content / story.
Pretty much the only way to design a game without relying on rigid (and usually flawed) incentives, is to base it around competition. (or in the case of single player / play & forget type games, story)
That's sort of my point, just worded directly to the point. Progression grinding does more damage than good. Rift had long level grind for its new expansion, and people quit. Grind is boring and very old school mindset.
I will admit I was one of those people that would argue that MMO == Grind. I was one of the loudest people against GW1's short leveling path. Aka the level 20 cap.
but mindset has changed from what I had about MMOs back then. I no longer see a reason for levels. I no longer see grinding as fun. I no longer see 5 man parties as fun. I no longer like small scale PvP. But one thing I can see as a major dislike over from the reaction in past MMO, and that is level grinds. Usually MMO lose large population during the early launch of a game during the massive leveling period.
Also item grind has become largely unpopular. Look at GW2 hype period.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Let me share some ideas, most of this is review stuff but it might fit in with the big picture.
1. Games have a finite amount of developer provided activity (content). Developers can't create new content as fast as people can burn through it. The result is that activity (content) must be repeated, in some cases several times, in order to stretch the content so there's always something to do.
2. Repeating content over and over gets boring. There's only so many times a player can do the same activity until it gets dull. Developers use this to their advantage by making some content "fun" (aka not repeated over and over) and some content "grind" (repeated over and over). They use grind as something a player has to do, in order to get to the content that they want to do.
3. There really is very little difference between "fun" content and "grind" content except for the repetition. This can clearly be illustrated by WoW who replaced quest "grind" (same tasks over and over) with dungeon "grind" (same dungeons over and over). In doing this Blizzard took "fun" content and turned it into a "grind".
4. Content gating is a technique where the progression of a character unlocks new content. The first time into new content, the feeling of repetition has not set in yet, so it's safe to say that "new" content is "fun" content. If every 5 levels of progression unlocks something "new" (aka fun) then the game can, by mechanics, spread "fun" out over several weeks or months depending on how fast the progression system works.
5. With a finite amount of content (see #1) and new content unlocked by progression gating (see #5) arrives at a new problem. When progression is slow then reward "fun" from progression doesn't happen fast enough to keep players attention. If the developer speeds up progression so that "fun" is more frequent, they limit the life cycle of a game because eventually players will run out of "fun" things to do and all that remains is grind. In a way, progression is ruining the game experience.
This gives players two choices:
Players accept that there is grind and have a year or more worth of PVE content metered to them slowly.
Developers can remove the content gating completely allowing the player to burn through the entire game in the matter of a few weeks (or less given content locusts).
So my question for the players: Is it okay for an MMORPG to feed new content to you as fast as you want it, as long as you realize that your gameplay will have completely exhausted all the content in a month or so?
An example of this: I played AOC up to around level 25. I might have seen one third of the content in the game, but got so bored that I left. Wouldn't it be better for me if progression was much faster (or removed completely) and they just turned me loose on the whole game to have fun in all the content?
TL;DR I'm not convinced that content gating via progression is a good idea. If I leave because I'm bored, what good is all the content that I never got to see?
DISCLAIMED: only applies to PVE themeparks. Sandboxes and PVP centric games are not as reliant on developer provided content in order for there to be things to do.
Personally i see only 2 options for this and both equally almost imposible to achive.
1- never ending content.
New , is fun. Repeating eventually is called grind, and eventually will be not fun.
Never ending content ?¿ only player created.otherwise not posible.
2. Fun grind
- as "fun" as a grind is, belive me i played many many games were grind was in fact,, really fun.
Eventually it will get boring as well.so you need newstuff.
My best bet is you dont enjoy the progression in a game to gt to what you call fun , better not worth the while then.
Everything above is on my honest opinion , as everything else.
I've played a couple where "grind" was fun. Even doing the same things, it was entertaining. Most of what I find "fun" grind is grouping, but I'm also a fan of alternating back and forth between questing / mob grinding / harvesting materials as a way to keep things diverse.
*Sigh*... progression is RPG's.....and MMORPG's...
There are two definitions for RPG, the technical definition: "role playing game" so you take on the role of a character and your choices and behavior affects the world around you.
Then theres the evolved definition of what an RPG is... which I learned when I played my first RPG ever: "Mario RPG" for super nintendo. "A game in which you get experience points and gain levels(or skill point increases)."
So what is gaining levels? Its progression. Thats precisely what non-text based MUD type RPG's are about.... they are about your character acquiring power via progression that can be quantified.
Now as for how "progression" could possibly be "fun?" Ever heard of a thing called "delayed gratification?" Its the reason water tastes so delicious after being out in the hot sun and sweating for so long. Its because your body has been deprived of it for so long that it has increased your satisfaction level per unit water.
Its the reason desert is saved for last. Its why being away from a loved one for so long and then being reunited is sweeter based on how long they've been gone.
This is a basic human psychological principle folks.
If you aren't playing RPG's to roleplay... (even mildly) which I'd estimate is about 95% of the mmorpg population. And you don't like delayed gratification or progression. Then RPG's are not what you're seeking.
I understand you want to play an "MMO_____"... you want that sense of achievement, and community, and server side characters/gameplay that prevents cheating your way to the end, but MMORPG is not the "MMO_____" you are looking for.
I get upset when this "progression / grind" argument gets raised, because MMORPG's are having their average lifespan and difficulty lowered because people aren't disciplined enough to understand delayed gratification.
Its half because the current generation of 12-18 year olds are a generation of instant gratification, the "ok fine you all get to be jedi" generation, but also because the previous generations of old school MMORPGamers have jobs and wives and kids now, and don't have the time to invest to maintain their l33t status. So delayed gratification is still cool for the old timers, but they just don't have the time to put into it.
Please leave my grind, my progression, and my roleplay servers... alone, and find the "MMO_____" thats meant for you.
(P.S. grind and progression DO NOT mean "treadmill". Example of heavy grind/progression that is NOT treadmill: FFXIV classes and crafting professions.)
Sorry but... wth are you talking about?
The entire goal of a game, start to finish, top to bottom, in and out...should be fun, enjoyable and never frustrating or tedious.
If you need to accomplish certain objectives to achieve certain goals those objectives (questing, killing, defeating encounters, navigating dungeons, killing players, taking strategic objectives) they should all be well designed so that each component, on it's own, is fun.
All of this hogwash about anything else is simply a mask for a poorly design game or element of a game.
Everquest was a perfect example. The reason most of us who had started our MMO "journeys" with Everquest could not wait to leave for WoW was that Everquest was more work than play and almost every level.
And the idea that you should immediately have access to all content without the achievement of previous requirements, well, again it's all about the design. If the game designer can achieve a fully flat world where everything is available to everyone without also falling into the "what's left" trap, well, good luck to them. However people need to understand.... progression serves a very important purpose for the developer, it allows them to build a world in a reasonable amount of time that will have some lasting value. If you could have everything right away you'd become bored very quickly.
There is NO best formula other than this. Build a good game and they will come. End of story.
with everything you said are counter arguments,
I have 4 words to say.
Guild Wars Two
Darkfall.
these games I played FOR FUN!!! not for any kind of GRIND.
one thing thats hurting my feelings about GW2 is the STUPID PROGRESSION GRIND!
I play for Fun. I play in WvW even when my faction is outmanned and underpowered big time. Fighting top tier servers. Why? BECAUSE ITS FUN TO PLAY WvW not matter about any stupid rewards!!!!
I play Dungeons on my alts, BECAUSE ITS FUN TO EXPERIENCE DUNGEONS WITH DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES. I do it for fun, not for stupid rewards that will be outleved 5 levels later!
I toy around with my builds and traits BECAUSE ITS FUN!!!
I play for FUN! Progression just happens from my fun.. but its pretty much forces grind on players like other MMO games. thats the issue. Cant play dungeons in GW2 unless I am a certain level to do them all.
I cant raid in Rift because I may not be max level.
other stupid stuff like that..
I like Faction vs Faction, or RvE as some call it, in WoW, but cant do it till level 51 in Vanilla WoW AV mode. Was sick!! yet had to grind. I had only 1 character that level in vanilla. couldnt stand the grind. Couldnt get my alts past level 15 before massive boredom from the grind kicks in when a player realizes the grind is the only thing between them and that FUN at the end of the tunnel.
In Darkfall I went into the world and did whatever I wanted, that I found to be fun. Only issue, is that the FFA full loot ruleset bring in the internet anonymous defended trolls that like to gank the fun that other people have.
Seem like now days, people rather see, and enjoy seeing other players not having fun, or suffering. I blame TV partially for this.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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They are getting something out of it, they're getting fun! Entertainment is just supposed to be entertaining, something that is enjoyable to do without necessarily getting anything long-term out of it. If I sit down and play Tetris, what did I get out of it besides the enjoyment of doing it? When I turn it off, I lose anything that I did and start all over again next time.
The only incentive I care about in a game is did I have a good time while I was playing it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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@aesperus you are completely forgetting about intrinisc rewards, of which fun is one.
And then you get the ones where the grind is just absurd. I was thinking about Anarchy Online where running mission terminal missions over and over and over and over and over to get tokenboards was just ridiculous. You needed to run 2500 missions or thereabout to get the top-end boards and all the bonuses that go along with them. Seriously, back when I was playing, I'd just spend hours doing mission after mission after mission to slowly inch my way up, running at least 10 missions a day at a minimum. Once you made it though, you never wanted to start a new character because then you had to start all over again! The worst part about it, there were only four mission types and every damn one looked almost identical.
When you dread doing these missions, that's when it stops being fun.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I know the feeling. There was one in vanilla WoW where I needed reputation to get a crafting pattern. I'd grind for hours on end to get the rep. Seemed endless.
So you want MMO's to become eve MORE instant gratification then they already are? progresion has been swept away masivly already to cater the new generation of people wich want "fun" Now you are saying that the entire leveling experience aint fun?
Thi is another example of what is wrong with MMO's today and they people who are the driven factor for all these changes.
The entire leveling feature in MMO's should be made a whole lot longer and more difficult. even the fastest of levelers should not be able to max their character in a week.. rather it should take them atleast 2 months of total devotion. Why you ask. well you said it yourself leveling aint fun apearantly. So why make it even longer? well il tell you. leveling should be the first adventure in an MMO not a chore you have to do to get to the fun. Leveling up your character should be Fun, having fun while you progress your charcter.
But the instant gratification generation would cry their eyes out because they would always feel like this small spot in a big world because they don't have the time nor skill to put into that kind of progresion.
There are two issues with progression that I'm seeing in themeparks these days:
1) mature games have an increasing large mass of legacy content that is not up to the standards to the "current" game. It's a barrier to entry for new players looking between the experience they start with in a new game vs the more dated experience they have to work their way up through in a more mature game (but you can't just drop the early levels because of the accumulated learning curve they need to understand).
2) The divergence of soloish and raider playstyles is messing up the progression curve. Once upon a time, everyone assumed that players would enter the world alone, slowly clump up into groups and do epic group stuff if they stayed with the game. It turns out a lot of people don't like raids and people in guilds don't need to regroup with each expansion. But while the player base is bifurcating, an open-world soloish game and instanced group game, they still have to share the same progression curve. Thus you end up with hard-core raiders grinding through solo content they aren't enjoying to get to their game and hard-core soloists hitting a glass ceiling where almsot all paths of progression are group-only.
That said, I don't know how serious these issues are - is it really in irritation to a large number of players or am I just spending too much time reading message boards and getting a distorted view of how the wider population of players feels?