Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Developing MMO's : The System

2»

Comments

  • juggernautJesusjuggernautJesus Atlanta, NYPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus

    Hahaha, dear god.  How many times are you going to mis-quote my original post?  It doesn't say the developers are lazy, stupid, or lack creativity.  It just lays out a system that they must follow in order to have low risk in being successful and pull in money.  For fucks sake stop saying things I didn't say, please. It's not hard to read. Read.

    You may not have said the exact words, but the point is all the same.

    "Modern day games suck, nothing will ever be as good as UO/DAOC again, nothing is Hardcore... blah blah."

    Same ole' thing I've read 10090359382 times on this site.

     

    Wow.  So ignorant to think that's the point. I have a feeling you didn't even read it. You completely missed the point of the post obviously and focused directly on that sentence in my post, then slammed the reply button with your mouse and went on your tangent.

    What the hell are you arguing then?  So you agree that the system is there, then what the hell are you arguing? Oh guess then you agree with me.  Christ...

     

    Edit: Ya just read those quotes you reposted again. Did I say it was anyone's fault? No, I didn't.  Again you're confusing my anger with the system with me blaming people. You don't understand, just give up or stop trolling or whatever you're trying to accomplish.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Well, while western developers continue to miss the boat, some pretty big games are rolling out of the east.

    I do hope their business advisors don't keep insisting on huge upfront investments that crash and burn so quickly--or shortly there won't BE big publishers any more.

    This is VERY true.

    Western devs have dropped the ball enough times, the dream of a "miracle" game hitting our shores from the East is inching ever closer to perhaps coming true.

    Kickstarter and all the indie up-starts using it is a great unknown at this point. Have any of them released or are more than web pages yet?

    I'll believe that when the East releases a game worth playing. The last one was what, original FFXI? Can that be considered East? Lineage 2 was a big success....In asia. Is there a single game from asia that has done good in America? Curiousity has the best of me.

    Time will tell :)

    Just like with the Kickstarter trend.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Good point I guess, the more we make our TORs the closer they get to having a shot at releasing the big one.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus

    Wow.  So ignorant to think that's the point. I have a feeling you didn't even read it. You completely missed the point of the post obviously and focused directly on that sentence in my post, then slammed the reply button with your mouse and went on your tangent.

    What the hell are you arguing then?  So you agree that the system is there, then what the hell are you arguing? Oh guess then you agree with me.  Christ...

    The point is - you are wrong.

    You and others on this site might greatly dislike the "modern" MMORPG - and yearn for more classic games.

    But the genre has more games, more players, and more success (both financially and critically) than EVER before.

    Part of that is because they are spending a boat-load more to make these games so they attract more players, get better hype, and better reviews.

    And sadly it has shifted expectations of the playerbase - expectations on quality, on polish, on the amount of content, the number of systems etc.

    We want more of everything and we want it better and we want it faster.

    The things we love(d) when they were small and niche and few knew of them always, always are looked at fondly when that thing we love(d) get hugely popular and successful - it's almost always "ruined' by its success.

    I won't argue that.

    But this whole thing is NOTHING more than another "back in my day" argument.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    I'll believe that when the East releases a game worth playing. The last one was what, original FFXI? Can that be considered East? Lineage 2 was a big success....In asia. Is there a single game from asia that has done good in the west? Curiousity has the best of me.

    By your judgement?

    Let's see, wakfu's already successful, as is AA (regardless of their Western performances). I'm hardly an expert on Eastern games, but we've been writing them off so reflexively for so long that we'll probably miss it when it happens.

    Of course, unless it competes with YouKnow, a fair number of gamers will write it off, regardless of who made it. or what it does or doesn't do in the market.

    GW2? Made a buck, wasn't cheap but didn't cost SWTOR money either, how do we call that one, Spock?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • juggernautJesusjuggernautJesus Atlanta, NYPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus

    Wow.  So ignorant to think that's the point. I have a feeling you didn't even read it. You completely missed the point of the post obviously and focused directly on that sentence in my post, then slammed the reply button with your mouse and went on your tangent.

    What the hell are you arguing then?  So you agree that the system is there, then what the hell are you arguing? Oh guess then you agree with me.  Christ...

    The point is - you are wrong.

    You and others on this site might greatly dislike the "modern" MMORPG - and yearn for more classic games.

    But the genre has more games, more players, and more success (both financially and critically) than EVER before.

    Part of that is because they are spending a boat-load more to make these games so they attract more players, get better hype, and better reviews.

    And sadly it has shifted expectations of the playerbase - expectations on quality, on polish, on the amount of content, the number of systems etc.

    We want more of everything and we want it better and we want it faster.

    The things we love(d) when they were small and niche and few knew of them always, always are looked at fondly when that thing we love(d) get hugely popular and successful - it's almost always "ruined' by its success.

    I won't argue that.

    But this whole thing is NOTHING more than another "back in my day" argument.

    /facepalm

    I didn't say the genre is financially worse and less successful now. Yes, I agree and didn't say otherwise, it's better. The only arguments you can make on my post is either that the system doesn't exist, or that's not the way it works. And so far you've only said "Yes the system is there, and some of that is the way it works, but THIS is why they have to do it."  Which I agreed with to an extent...

    I wasn't arguing anything, except that the system is there and how I thought it worked. It's not a "back in my day" argument.

    Allllright, I'm done here. People just look for arguments. Cheers. :/

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus

    Allllright, I'm done here. People just look for arguments. Cheers. :/

    Yep. Without them, forums don't move very quickly.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    GW2? Made a buck, wasn't cheap but didn't cost SWTOR money either, how do we call that one, Spock?

    Well it was made by a Western developement studio that just so happens to be owned by a Easter publisher.

    And if they've sold 3 million copies at say 50$ a pop (random number average for digital vs. box sales) that's 150 million before taking any cash shop sales into account.

    Even if the game cost 100 million to make, that's a pretty penny.

    Major financial success. Critical success only (I feel) is reflected on a wierd combination of critics reviews, general internet love/hate, popularity of 3rd party sites (fan sites) and social media etc. etc.

    Game gets a lot of hate here on MMORPG and on other sandbox-heavy "veteran" hang-outs like Massively, but in general it's a well liked game.

    Anet was stupid for trying/saying that they were aiming for WoW-like numbers.

    That games is a fluke - outlier - lightning striking twice in the same spot etc.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus

    /facepalm

    I didn't say the genre is financially worse and less successful now. Yes, I agree and didn't say otherwise, it's better. The only arguments you can make on my post is either that the system doesn't exist, or that's not the way it works. And so far you've only said "Yes the system is there, and some of that is the way it works, but THIS is why they have to do it."  Which I agreed with to an extent...

    I wasn't arguing anything, except that the system is there and how I thought it worked. It's not a "back in my day" argument.

    Allllright, I'm done here. People just look for arguments. Cheers. :/

    Go back and re-read the bits I re-posted as quotes from your OP in one of my previous posts in this thread.

    You said a LOT about the quality of the games AND the gamers who play them AND the developers who made them.

    Don't try and act all innocent.

    Own up to what you said and defend it or don't say it.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    JJ,

    You are missing BS's point. AAA cost money - loads of money. If you think all those kickstart games will be made and published just with those funds, you are kidding yourself - they are used to show a possible model and then the REAL MONEY gets courted. First and foremost, most game developers are in themselves avid gamers or they wouldn't be in this racket. Second, the companies have to make money on their investments, example is the movie 'Ishtar'. Ever see it? At the time it was one of the highest cost to produce movies and was the biggest flop ever - I mean it had Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty. A second wasn't produced and I think the original print was burned (I JEST HERE but it was that bad).

     

    This is one of the issues here. Companies want to continue to make games, then they need to make money. The investment pool is not a bottomless pit (unless you think you are making Duke Nukem Forever that is - what a flop that game was). You have to show ROI or you don't get more money for the next game.

     

    The attitude you are showing is not one of reality but of ENTITLEMENT. Games like anything else are big business. Do I hope for a small upstart to come through and show all the big guys, SURE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. The reality is, not a fat chance right now, with economies around the world so on the verge of collapse. If it was the 1990's boom - I think we would see one or two but not now.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    How about we talk reality for a minute -

    Creating a AAA MMO will cost you probably 50-100 million dollars and 5+ years.

    If you sell your game for 60$, you have to sell ~830K copies to make back your 50 million, or 1.6 million copies to make back your 100 million.

    And that assumes you get 100% of that 60$ - as in they are online / digital 1st-party only sales.

    We all know that doesn't happen.

    Let's say because of licensing costs (like you are using a well-known IP to generate interest in your game) and then costs to distributers (like brick+motor stores) you are bring in 60% of that 60$ or 36$.

    So in order to make back your 50-100 million dollar investment - you now have to sell ~1.4 million for 50m or ~2.8 million for 100m.

    But let's say you sell a pretty good portion yourself online (digital) and you maybe have to sell 1 million to 2 million copies to recoup your investment.

    The more digital sales you do, the more you have to have a good infrastructure behind your game (download servers) or you have to pay someone else to host the downloads.

    Not to mention processing all of the user informations (credit cards) and storing it, something you already have to do for account information and character data on your servers.

    So unless you want to raise your production costs (and thus raise the number of copies you have to sell) then you have to spend less on the actual development of the game.

    Which means things like in-house custom tools and engines instead of leasing/buying proven 3rd party tools and engines.

    Which maybe a AAA developer can do because they have the talent, but talent costs money to recruit and retain so the cost mights balance out in the end?

    So to save money, you cut people (you hire less) which means less content and higher workloads per developer which will probably equate to lower quality and more "shortcuts."

    I could go ON and ON and ON.

    Point is -

    If you are going to spend a LOT of money to make a game, you have to try and get some assurance that you will be able to recoup that investment and make a profit or you are never going to get the money to make the game in the first place.

    Kickstarter may be great for 1-2 million dollar budgets and assisting in finance, but you are NEVER going to fully finance a 50-100 million dollar AAA title without investors.

    And how do you get assurance people are going to buy your game?

    You go with known quantities. Known IPs, known mechanics, known systems.

    You take as much risk and chance as you can AFFORD to take.

    And you try and be as creative as hell in the application and interpretation of those standards and hope/pray that players don't fear your changes too much.

    And here is another fact people on this site tend to overlook - developers are human beings. They are not Gods, they make mistakes, sometimes they can't figure out some ingenius way to make something work so they have to fake it / do something "good enough." They also have lives outside of work, families, require time to sleep and be away from their desks...

    Welcome to reality.


    Games aren't made in a vacuum. They are made by real people working real jobs and require real money and real infrastructure and services etc. etc.

    Every single thing you said in this post ALL assumes that I am bashing the publishers for using this system. Also, you are assuming that I am bashing the developers and journalists.  Read my post again, and rethink your response.  I do not blame anybody, and already understand everything you said in this response. Of course they all do what they must to survive. They are required to play the system. I understand that this system is almost essential to the survival of "AAA" titles.  But as Icewhite said, and it's a good point, many people are happy with more creative and modest titles that don't require an enormous company's wealth.

    Please be careful before you come back with a heated response. I am not blaming anybody for the system. Perhaps it was my "I don't like these games anymore" attitude that brought you to thinking I'm blaming somebody.

    So thank you for the information, as it's valuable for people to understand that also. But calm down, take a breather, and try to be a little more respectable before going on a tangent.  Thanks.

    To OP, you post comes off as blaming DEVS, etc,  because being a DEV I work in the field, We do NOT have much or any say these are facts!!!

     

    I do get tired of seeing gamers blaming us, I was a gamer and still i'm, but I went to school and went for my degree got a job etc, and see alot of things you people as gamers don't see.. DEVS aren't at fault period..  I have tolld my boss many times not to release something I was NOT done, and they say make it work we need it by this date no matter what period, and its released even if you know its NOT.

    DEVS go on there own alot now a days, I have, because of crap like this, but will I make MMo's NO, why should I?? Gamers attitudes today suck, I did want to, I wrote a few games for an MMo, but after  being in the field, no way, the attitudes from gamers suck, I can make smaller scales games that I like and get better feed back, and more respect from these gamers than MMo players.

    Its sad that MMo players think we owe them something, we do not owe you people anything, we make games that we enjoy or would enjoy, and I have even made thread blogs, if I gave a gamer 40 million dollars and said I will get a team and make you a game that you would enjoy, I bet you would still find something to complain and whine about. You know why?? Because gamers today want everything there way, and for nothing.

    Most gamers today think making a game is so easy, well if it was everyone would  be doing it.. 

    I become a DEV because I loved games so much, but honestly I really see the DEVS side more and more...

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    I become a DEV because I loved games so much, but honestly I really see the DEVS side more and more...

    Normal. Normal to grow much more skeptical of "Banned For No Reason!" posts, too.

    Turns out that working for EvilCo doesn't make you evil. Who'd a thunk it?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    JJ,

    You are missing BS's point. AAA cost money - loads of money. If you think all those kickstart games will be made and published just with those funds, you are kidding yourself - they are used to show a possible model and then the REAL MONEY gets courted. First and foremost, most game developers are in themselves avid gamers or they wouldn't be in this racket. Second, the companies have to make money on their investments, example is the movie 'Ishtar'. Ever see it? At the time it was one of the highest cost to produce movies and was the biggest flop ever - I mean it had Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty. A second wasn't produced and I think the original print was burned (I JEST HERE but it was that bad).

     

    This is one of the issues here. Companies want to continue to make games, then they need to make money. The investment pool is not a bottomless pit (unless you think you are making Duke Nukem Forever that is - what a flop that game was). You have to show ROI or you don't get more money for the next game.

     

    The attitude you are showing is not one of reality but of ENTITLEMENT. Games like anything else are big business. Do I hope for a small upstart to come through and show all the big guys, SURE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. The reality is, not a fat chance right now, with economies around the world so on the verge of collapse. If it was the 1990's boom - I think we would see one or two but not now.

    Ummm, your wrong my friend, games used to cost a ton,  You know why?? Over head costs etc where a ton, license costs for each program x what ever your team size is, well guess what time has changed, it does not cost as much, Kickstarter is enough, also you can make games today because people are not just learning say 3s modeling, or texturing, they are learning all aspects.

    Schools are changing, they not only teach you Game Production, but the buisness aspects , marketing etc which are important, so to this poster , your wrong... I know because I work in the field, and nearly have my master, I work with this stuff 16 hrs a day.. So, your 100% incorrect.

     

    But the reason your not seeing as many MMo's being made by non AAA titles because we can make smaller scale games faster and the community for smaller scales games is way better attitude wise.. I can get a Facebook game, Android games done in 3-6 months and make 50k,-100k off of it, each game, and alone... this is a year for each game, so if you have say 3 games there is 150k on the low side, thats some good money there. If I worked for a company which I do as well, you make maybe 50-80k a year if your good maybe less..    Now if I made a MMo, I wouldn't make that and it would take 3-4 years and I would need a team of atleast 10 -15 people, it can be done with less, but its tough. I would need to pay each person and get all of the license's for each program they need, 3ds max, Photoshop, all sorts of plugin's ..the list goes on... I would need to pay for seats for the Game engine, and a program to manage the team, like perforce.

    I mean the list goes on, and I would be lucky to make that, and with the way the community today is with all the bad attitudes towards DEVS , why would we want to make you guys a good game???? SO this is the main reason from talking to other DEVS as well....

     

     

    PS: The reason Blizzard, Bioware need all that money is because they have many people to pay , license's and overhead costs are super high...

  • juggernautJesusjuggernautJesus Atlanta, NYPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
     

    Go back and re-read the bits I re-posted as quotes from your OP in one of my previous posts in this thread.

    You said a LOT about the quality of the games AND the gamers who play them AND the developers who made them.

    Don't try and act all innocent.

    Own up to what you said and defend it or don't say it.

    Yup.

    Quality of the games: What? I stated that I have different standards and said that they're not trash not everyone? So basically I said my opinion is that they are junk, but to others they might not be? Okay...

    The gamers who play them: What? Is it that I labeled them as the "generic gamer mainstream crowd" and most of them are "kids" and stated "but no offense to the fact that they're kids"? How is that insulting? Is it that they defend the developers and continue to follow the system because, in a way, they're being tricked? How is that insulting?

    The developers who made them: What? That they lie about content to boost sales? Did I condemn them for doing so? Did I say they shouldn't? I simply said it's how the system works.

    On top of all of that, how does any of that ^ (even of it was true) make my point "wrong"?  It doesn't, you agreed with my point then created a fake argument out of things I didn't say. You missed the original point. Trust me, I've been well aware of how the gaming industry works these days and why everyone does what they do. I have friends in some of these companies and understand that it's a big system with nobody to blame.

    Okay, that's all this time, cheers again. :)

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    I become a DEV because I loved games so much, but honestly I really see the DEVS side more and more...

    Normal. Normal to grow much more skeptical of "Banned For No Reason!" posts, too.

    Turns out that working for EvilCo doesn't make you evil. Who'd a thunk it?

    eh?? lol

  • juggernautJesusjuggernautJesus Atlanta, NYPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by juggernautJesus
     

    Every single thing you said in this post ALL assumes that I am bashing the publishers for using this system. Also, you are assuming that I am bashing the developers and journalists.  Read my post again, and rethink your response.  I do not blame anybody, and already understand everything you said in this response. Of course they all do what they must to survive. They are required to play the system. I understand that this system is almost essential to the survival of "AAA" titles.  But as Icewhite said, and it's a good point, many people are happy with more creative and modest titles that don't require an enormous company's wealth.

    Please be careful before you come back with a heated response. I am not blaming anybody for the system. Perhaps it was my "I don't like these games anymore" attitude that brought you to thinking I'm blaming somebody.

    So thank you for the information, as it's valuable for people to understand that also. But calm down, take a breather, and try to be a little more respectable before going on a tangent.  Thanks.

    To OP, you post comes off as blaming DEVS, etc,  because being a DEV I work in the field, We do NOT have much or any say these are facts!!!

    Okay, if it comes off as blaming developers of the game, then I'm sorry, that was not the point I was trying to make.  In fact, please direct your attention to this statement I made in the beginning of the post to confirm that that was not my intention: "Publishers control game development now, not the developers."  Even then, I'm not trying to blame the publishers.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by botrytis

    JJ,

    You are missing BS's point. AAA cost money - loads of money. If you think all those kickstart games will be made and published just with those funds, you are kidding yourself - they are used to show a possible model and then the REAL MONEY gets courted. First and foremost, most game developers are in themselves avid gamers or they wouldn't be in this racket. Second, the companies have to make money on their investments, example is the movie 'Ishtar'. Ever see it? At the time it was one of the highest cost to produce movies and was the biggest flop ever - I mean it had Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty. A second wasn't produced and I think the original print was burned (I JEST HERE but it was that bad).

     

    This is one of the issues here. Companies want to continue to make games, then they need to make money. The investment pool is not a bottomless pit (unless you think you are making Duke Nukem Forever that is - what a flop that game was). You have to show ROI or you don't get more money for the next game.

     

    The attitude you are showing is not one of reality but of ENTITLEMENT. Games like anything else are big business. Do I hope for a small upstart to come through and show all the big guys, SURE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. The reality is, not a fat chance right now, with economies around the world so on the verge of collapse. If it was the 1990's boom - I think we would see one or two but not now.

    Ummm, your wrong my friend, games used to cost a ton,  You know why?? Over head costs etc where a ton, license costs for each program x what ever your team size is, well guess what time has changed, it does not cost as much, Kickstarter is enough, also you can make games today because people are not just learning say 3s modeling, or texturing, they are learning all aspects.

    Schools are changing, they not only teach you Game Production, but the buisness aspects , marketing etc which are important, so to this poster , your wrong... I know because I work in the field, and nearly have my master, I work with this stuff 16 hrs a day.. So, your 100% incorrect.

    This is true in some regards. You are right, people in the field are learning all aspects of game development,  and in some cases, engines can be so robust that you can have little programming knowledge, or outsource bits and pieces for little cost,  but in most of those cases  you aren't working with large scale, heavily modified, multiuser designs.

     

    Costs have decreased quite a bit in terms of costs associated with visual design and programming,  and when it comes to the cost of huge AAA MMOs, you are paying for a lot of excess in regards to each and every piece of development.

     

    Someone with complete knowledge can create a game on their own for generally no costs associated with utilizing some low or no cost engines and doing the design and programming themselves,  but again, you aren't seeing this on a large scale basis with something like a full featured  MMO just yet.   

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Someone with complete knowledge can create a game on their own for generally no costs associated with utilizing some low or no cost engines and doing the design and programming themselves,  but again, you aren't seeing this on a large scale basis with something like a full featured  MMO just yet.   

    I realistically don't think you ever will.

    MMOs are just too big of a project.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Someone with complete knowledge can create a game on their own for generally no costs associated with utilizing some low or no cost engines and doing the design and programming themselves,  but again, you aren't seeing this on a large scale basis with something like a full featured  MMO just yet.   

    I realistically don't think you ever will.

    MMOs are just too big of a project.

    I guess this would depend on how we are going to categorize "MMO" nowadays.  Having many multiples of users could be possible with certain engines and designs.

     

     

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

2»
Sign In or Register to comment.