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Originally posted by Vesavius Originally posted by Loktofeit If you guys spent half as much time being part of a community as you do complaining they don't exist, you'd enjoy MMOs a lot more. The former takes more effort, though.
Originally posted by Vesavius
I agree with Lok here.
Less complaining about 'lack of community' and more active effort in forming/ supporting one please.
Whining on forums about it means nothing.
Community is fostered by game mechanics that encourage social behaviour. It is as much a development issue as it is a social issue. Actively trying to support the community will only get you so far when everyone else is essentially discouraged from socialising due to game mechanics.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Alberel Your post also implies you don't understand what people mean by 'community' in the general sense. If you have to deliberately find a community to be a part of then that's a clique not a community. The community is the player population as a whole, it is something you are a part of simply by playing. They used to be much more positive and constructive, people helped each other, and simply by playing the game you would become involved with the community as it was generally beneficial to be social with everyone. Yes there were bad apples there but they were balanced out by the golden apples... these days the general community has almost nothing but bad apples. The result is everyone isolates themselves into cliques called guilds and chooses not to socialise with anyone outside their circle.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Neat hippy lovefest view, but that's neither how it was before nor how it is now.
Also, to correct azzamasin on the definition of community, when he clearly explains he is talking about a group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists, is a bit ridiculous. Did you use 'clique' to give it a negative light or do you not know the meaning of community as generally used? Are you confusing community with playerbase?
Either you were part of the previous cliques or you are looking at things with rose-colored glasses. There was never a universal lovefest - not now, not before, not even on earth... ever. There were always countless smaller communities. Your perception is based on having views in line with the communities most common back then and having less in common with the communities most common now.
I love how you seem to know my entire MMO gaming history and what experiences I had. Presuming to know me says more about you than me...
I also love how you seem to be blind to the fact that the playerbase IS the overall community of an MMO. I never said anything about a lovefest; notice I mentioned there were equally as many bad apples. The point was they were balanced out by positive social experiences that simply don't happen now, or at least very very rarely if ever. It has nothing to do with having views in common with communities back then. It's on a more fundamental level than that. Individual players (and I mean total strangers) were generally nicer and more helpful back then (cue your mindless rose tinted glasses retort) which meant a more positive social experience for everyone and a positive community for the game. It wasn't a universal lovefest but it was a damn sight better than what we have now.
Feel free to retort with more drivel about how I'm remembering it wrong.
Originally posted by Latronus Originally posted by delete5230 Originally posted by Aethaeryn I agree with a lot of what you said. The thing is though. If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc. The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts. From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either. *sad bugle music*
Well I really dont think that the generations of people really asked for the new changes, but the developers are pushing this new crap on us.
I disagree with this. The entitlement generation wants instant gratification or they whine, rant, and leave. They want to do everything solo and having to talk to people is counter productive. It isn't that the devs are forcing this on us, but the masses are wanting it.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIVHave played: You name itIf you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
I honestly thought "community" went downhill with vanilla WoW (nver played EQ2)
(More than a few) People would have sold their mother for the next piece of loot, or to be able to jump up to the next guild that had a little more progession. It seemed (to me anyhow) it was all about the individual, even in quite a few guilds that were opposed to that.
I'm not saying everyone, or every guild was like this, and i'm sure yours wasn't. I just happen to see (what i thought was) a lot of it. It almost seemed like your "enemy" back then was your own faction. Do whatever it takes to progress.
I mean, maybe it was a community, just not one i particularly cared for.
If you mean 'forced' community - then you can have it. If you mean people WHO WANT TO PLAY together, then I will deal with that. SO far, that is what I am doing in GW2, the guild is my community to play in. They are doing things together and that is the important part.
Others in GW2, other guilds also will associate with other players, it is their modus opperandi. I just rrestarted TERA and the chat is infantile and banal, this is on the server I started a new character on. I have not got back to one of the other servers where I have 2 other characters.
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Originally posted by mmoDAD I agree with the OP. EQ2 was the lsat community I was really ever a part of. As of now, I feel like it's just kid-talk, e.g.,bro's brony, lolololz, epic fail, etc. I can't stand the new generation of gamers. Killed it all for us...because they buy anything.
Originally posted by Alberel Originally posted by Vesavius Originally posted by Loktofeit If you guys spent half as much time being part of a community as you do complaining they don't exist, you'd enjoy MMOs a lot more. The former takes more effort, though.
Yes. I have been saying this for years.
But it still takes people to support those games that do this with their dollar, rather then supporting those that don't because they are shiney and new.
If you don't show a market for a certain type of design philosophy then games won't be made that philosphy, that's mainly what I am saying in this thread.
Never underestimate an individual's impact on a community though, whatever the design. I have seen entire server's culture turned from toxic to pleasent by a single active member before.
Originally posted by Vesavius Never underestimate an individual's impact on a community though, whatever the design. I have seen entire server's culture turned from toxic to pleasent by a single active member before.
Particularly when "community" is judged by "forum", yes.
On that note, whatever happened to "mentors"? Swallowed up by "Massive", I presume?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Still think war and lotr had better community than vanilla wow and they came several years later. Not as good as daoc community though, that's the best game I've played community wise, with probably coh in 2nd.
I can agree with that. LOtRO had a great community before it went F2P, and WAR had an excellent community for the first 6 months or so, but it has degenerated significantly since then. I think PQs helped a lot with people making friends in WAR even if people don't like to admit to those being a good idea.
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Originally posted by ShakyMo Argh on phone delete above please. With war I thought it was good from around 6 months up to 2 years after all the "bored of wow but want new game like wow" crowd had left and they had made rvr the primary focus not scenarios. Upto when bioware took over and broke it be messing about with the pvp instead of sticking to their strength pve. During that period it was crusty old daoc nerds and warhammer tabletop geeks, probably the oldest average age in a mmo I've come across except maybe eve. I was one of the youngest in our alliance and was in my mid 30s at the time.
Ah I see what you mean. I just felt like it started degenerating earlier because my guild was falling apart around the 6 month mark, as with most our alliance in general.
Mentors—An Archaic MUDism re: community
First, this is not unique to a single game title-in other MUDs, the same (nominal) function was performed by “guides” or some other title.
Mentors were strictly volunteers; no one was ever paid a dime for taking part. Mentors were staff-overviewed (in our case, a GM running the program and working behind the scenes, monitoring mentor behavior, etc. We could, in extreme cases, send her/him a tell directly. A mentor hollering for help would get staff “eyes” watching, pretty much instantly).
“Special powers”—not many, except Mentor channel, and a special sort of summon/return ability. Access to the “storage closet” (more on that later).
What the hell is it?
Mentors were senior players (not staff) who volunteered their time to “help the newbs, new players, get acclimated to a steep learning curve. They earned a position through an application process, as judged by (I did not know the details at the time) the mentor GM and a couple of “junior” GM assistants.
After being accepted into the program, mentors received access to a handful of verbs (most of which only worked while “on duty” (wearing a mentor title)), a backchannel (heard solely by the MGM and mentors), and access to a specific-use guild hall, of sorts.
Basically, mentors get a report from the game whenever a new player arrives. They can teleport to (Newbsauce) and introduce themselves, the game, and “starter” mechanics. They can deliver (from the ‘closet’) limited starter gear (minor magic items, RP props, clothes, donations). They can group up and go “hunting” with Newbsauce, if he desires to, and help with some combat basics. And they can get Newbsauce started on the demo sequence (really simple basic skills review, with a quest-y disguise).
About one newb in ten spends any serious time with the mentor, most want to "do it myself", That's ok, at least someone welcomed them and said hello. Nearly all of them, help or not, appreciate that an effort was extended. And I would often receive "thank yous" from players I met as L1s literally years ago.
This is…pretty foreign to most mmos, and way foreign to most players.
The cynical view is that you’re unpaid drone working for the company. But remember, this is back when players and the company weren’t automatic enemies yet. The cynical view can suck it
These are players, volunteering their time to stop Acquiring Stuff and help other players.
That’s the concept that’s become foreign to MMOs, doing something without reward, just because it helps somebody else. It requires you to stop earning XP, once in a while.
And a modern mmo concentrates more on the demo sequence, and less on the welcome. They're shooting for super shallow learning curves, so that no player will ever need (or want) outside help, for anything.
But MUDs were just like this, we hadn't become "massive" yet.
Originally posted by Icewhite That’s the concept that’s become foreign to MMOs, doing something without reward, just because it helps somebody else. It requires you to stop earning XP, once in a while.
I saw a bit of this in SMT:Imagine. Acts of kindness? It really floored me at the time.
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Originally posted by XAPGames Originally posted by Icewhite That’s the concept that’s become foreign to MMOs, doing something without reward, just because it helps somebody else. It requires you to stop earning XP, once in a while.
I saw a bit of this in SMT:Imagine. Acts of kindness? It really floored me at the time.
There's a guild in EVE that exists to help newbies over the humps, too.
It's not unknown to MMOs, just not many games still have learning curves steep enough to make it necessary.
Originally posted by JimmyYO Funny I always thought community died as soon as WoW was released. The last time I felt a sense of community was back in my early EQ1 days.
It likely died the moment you gave up on it (by odd coincidence).
Communities were expendible for the sake of the masses.. I reflect on the past and think to myself, "wtf just happen?", and the only thing that comes to mind is that the game mechanics that promoted communities were removed from the games, to appease the masses.. Let me explain a few things from where I'm sitting..
What is a real community but a bunch of people? Which is everywhere.
man some of the people here are just insane seriously....I started gaming with EQ and DAOC im 35 and would be considered a middle gamer i guess being i meet a lot of people both younger and older than me in games. That being said EQ2 did not have some magical community I was there at day 1 of release. Experience Debt in groups got people put on ignore and cussed out on a regular basis on antonica bayle RP server. People fought over loot all the time and did a ton of arguing just like any game to date. The same stuff went on with WOW , I remember all the crying when people would die in dungeons over and over again in vanilla wow. This went on in DAOC also , people would fuss and fight when they died in groups , overpulled , or the experience wasnt flowing in at the speed they wanted in camps. People here have some SERIOUS rose tinted googles.
Also seriously do you guys sit around watching fox news all day so you can come up with a cool slang about the entitlement generation? It doesnt exist period....some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter but most ive encountered in games have no issue working hard for it. You guys seriously sound like a bunch of old white men on fox news with this lingo and its by far nothing to be happy over. Ive met more younger gamers that want to pvp hardcore and raid than older gamers who have an excuse for not wanting to commit to anything in games. While internet lingo has changed over time , and I hate the new words , its nothing at all new to this generation of gamers. I remember being on a aol chatroom when i was like 17 years old and people were saying lmfao asl and lol so this slang has been around for a long time , its just had some added slang as well by the newer players......
Originally posted by Aethaeryn I agree with a lot of what you said. The thing is though. If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc. The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts. From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either. *sad bugle music*
LOL, I'm old enough to be a grandpa, and I would agree with you, communities just aren't they used to be, regardless what the reasons are for it.
I will say though, once you get integrated into the EVE community and learn to navigate it, there's still some amazing socialization that goes one whether one is a Pirate or Prince, and if I had more time to play it that would be my long term home.
The MMORPG world has evolved and moved on, all we can do is adapt and find the fun whereever it is.
And hope for the next game to make it all better again.
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