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List time we had a real community was EQ2 and Vanilla WoW !

delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,964Member Uncommon

Longevity and community

No one sticks around anymore....Why ?.........No Community, The last time I have seen an mmo with true community tools were the old Vanilla WoW and Everquest 2 days. I'm not talking about liking a game or not, I'm talking about community !....Real servers, very simple.

I'm starting this topic because I'm mad about Elders Scrolls Online.  Mega servers with zoning to find friends.......come on.....Now will have another 30 day mmo on our hands.  So, what's the answer to all this ?......Simply, find yourself a good Guild, Right ?.....OK will have two million players trying to find that good guild, with 1% really finding one. A good Guild will only take you so far when you have thirty people and only two are your level.  Think about this, think real hard. Is this how your good guilds are too ?

 

I think I may be done for good with mmos unless we get a developer that really gets it about community. Maybe its just me but I would like to log in, play with friends make new ones with the guy over there fighting Goblins.  Staying away from Jim because he hoggs the loot, and hanging around with Bob because he is a good tank and is good at finding groups.

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Comments

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,978Member Uncommon

    I agree with a lot of what you said.  The thing is though.  If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc.

    The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts.  From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either.

    *sad bugle music*

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,964Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aethaeryn

    I agree with a lot of what you said.  The thing is though.  If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc.

    The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts.  From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either.

    *sad bugle music*

    Well I really dont think that the generations of people really asked for the new changes, but the developers are pushing this new crap on us.

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by delete5230
    Originally posted by Aethaeryn

    I agree with a lot of what you said.  The thing is though.  If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc.

    The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts.  From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either.

    *sad bugle music*

    Well I really dont think that the generations of people really asked for the new changes, but the developers are pushing this new crap on us.

    I disagree with this.  The entitlement generation wants instant gratification or they whine, rant, and leave.  They want to do everything solo and having to talk to people is counter productive.  It isn't that the devs are forcing this on us, but the masses are wanting it. 

    image
  • BroomyBroomy New York, NYPosts: 483Member Uncommon

    ah the old "Community" angle.  I played EQ2 for two years and it had hands down the most TOXIC community I have ever experienced in an MMO.  Dont beleive me? Go to the EQ2 "flame" site if you havent already.  The majority of the long-time posters there were the foundation of the Everquest 2 community: Racists, sexists, live at home/out of work losers that had nothing to add but gossip, intimidation and hatefulness.    IDK About WOW vanilla but I can speak volumes about EQ2.  Please...dont get me started.  "Community" is the single most overrated concept in MMOs.  We prefer to play with people we know and trust.  If a game allows us to, its a win (at least in that aspect of the game).

    Times and technology change in MMOs and having the ability to play with trusted friends is something people want.  You dont always end up on the same server so its good to have the option (other than rerolling) to play with buddies.  If Elder Scrolls fails, it won't be due to the ability to zone to friends.

    Current Games: SWTOR, EVE Online

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Longevity and community

    No one sticks around anymore....Why ?.........No Community, The last time I have seen an mmo with true community tools were the old Vanilla WoW and Everquest 2 days. I'm not talking about liking a game or not, I'm talking about community !....Real servers, very simple.

    I'm starting this topic because I'm mad about Elders Scrolls Online.  Mega servers with zoning to find friends.......come on.....Now will have another 30 day mmo on our hands.  So, what's the answer to all this ?......Simply, find yourself a good Guild, Right ?.....OK will have two million players trying to find that good guild, with 1% really finding one. A good Guild will only take you so far when you have thirty people and only two are your level.  Think about this, think real hard. Is this how your good guilds are too ?

     

    I think I may be done for good with mmos unless we get a developer that really gets it about community. Maybe its just me but I would like to log in, play with friends make new ones with the guy over there fighting Goblins.  Staying away from Jim because he hoggs the loot, and hanging around with Bob because he is a good tank and is good at finding groups.

    Disagree completely with what you said.

     

    First plenty of people stick around and create valid communities, its up to you to find one to be a part of not to have one created around you.  Second, there are plenty of games releasing eveyr year so why wouldnt you want to try them out.  There is nothing that says you "have" to stick to an MMO, plenty do some dont, its our choice.  Lastly Rose tinted glasses are a very evil entity, the things that go on now went on back then but its you who refuse to believe it becasue of those skewed glasses.

     

     

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    My Vanilla WoW experience was a lot of insular raiding guilds quickly formed to lock out "those b.net kiddies" people (= from EQ).

    Your community, in a game, consists of who you happen to encounter. Or for a server, who you happen to chat with on the server's board. If you happened to visit "the boards" at all (always many who did not).

    That's part of why everyone's memories (of the same games) are so very inexplicably different.

    Originally posted by delete5230

    I think I may be done for good with mmos unless we get a developer that really gets it about community. Maybe its just me but I would like to log in, play with friends make new ones with the guy over there fighting Goblins.  Staying away from Jim because he hoggs the loot, and hanging around with Bob because he is a good tank and is good at finding groups.

    What exactly do you expect the devs to do about personal issues?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,410Member Uncommon

    I agree with the OP. EQ2 was the lsat community I was really ever a part of. As of now, I feel like it's just kid-talk, e.g.,bro's brony, lolololz, epic fail, etc.

    I can't stand the new generation of gamers. Killed it all for us...because they buy anything.

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member
    I disagree with the argument that gamers don't have the time in their schedules like they used. There are still plenty of people wo play all day everyday. Just because the older generation of gamers have grown up and have lives now doesnt mean that there isn't a  under generation playing.. However that younger generation of gamer or th larger majority of them have that self entitlement and give it to me now mentality. They have 0 patience and think of anything that might take time and effort to achieve is nothing more than a time sink  or waste of time. They also feel that everyone should get a trophy just for  showing up. The older gaming generation has no one to blame for this but themselves as the older generation raised them to be this way.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    I agree with the OP. EQ2 was the lsat community I was really ever a part of. As of now, I feel like it's just kid-talk, e.g.,bro's brony, lolololz, epic fail, etc.

    I can't stand the new generation of gamers. Killed it all for us...because they buy anything.

    So the devs should magically cure intolerance too?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    I disagree with the argument that gamers don't have the time in their schedules like they used. There are still plenty of people wo play all day everyday. Just because the older generation of gamers have grown up and have lives now doesnt mean that there isn't a  under generation playing.. However that younger generation of gamer or th larger majority of them have that self entitlement and give it to me now mentality. They have 0 patience and think of anything that might take time and effort to achieve is nothing more than a time sink  or waste of time. They also feel that everyone should get a trophy just for  showing up. The older gaming generation has no one to blame for this but themselves as the older generation raised them to be this way.

    Devs, fix prejudice.

    Well, I think we've sufficiently answered "what happened to our communities" now.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Broomy

    ah the old "Community" angle.  I played EQ2 for two years and it had hands down the most TOXIC community I have ever experienced in an MMO.  Dont beleive me? Go to the EQ2 "flame" site if you havent already.  The majority of the long-time posters there were the foundation of the Everquest 2 community: Racists, sexists, live at home/out of work losers that had nothing to add but gossip, intimidation and hatefulness.    IDK About WOW vanilla but I can speak volumes about EQ2.  Please...dont get me started.  "Community" is the single most overrated concept in MMOs.  We prefer to play with people we know and trust.  If a game allows us to, its a win (at least in that aspect of the game).

    Times and technology change in MMOs and having the ability to play with trusted friends is something people want.  You dont always end up on the same server so its good to have the option (other than rerolling) to play with buddies.  If Elder Scrolls fails, it won't be due to the ability to zone to friends.

    EQ2Flames has nothing to do with the EQ2 community. On EQ2Flames you mostly find those raid elitists, some pvp'ers and wannabees. Sometimes there was some usefull information. But that was probably 1 % of the posts. The majority of EQ2 players never visited or even knew about this site. And I agree with OP, EQ2 had a good community. There were some black sheep but you can't prevent this in an MMO.

  • tordurbartordurbar Alexandria, VAPosts: 429Member Uncommon

    How many real life friends do you have? Most people have one or two. It is the same situation as guilds/communities in mmos. A true, real friend in life is as rare as a guild that fits you perfectly. I used to join guilds a lot and out of the dozens that I joined I stuck with only two of them for more than a year. In one case I had to move off the server and in the other the guild dissolved due to the founders had to quit. Since then, not being a raider or pvp zealot, I have found nothing. All of the casual guilds that I joined soon turned hard core, fell apart or ignored me. Of course it is part me - but I stuck with two guilds so maybe not so much.

    As mentioned above, it is not the developers that are against communities, it is the players. I played WOW for 7 years and came back for a time with MOP. The MOP community was almost virulent. The chat is full of hard core raiders, hard core pvp or rants. Legends tell of Barrens chat but at least we had Chuck Norris jokes - now it is just insults.

    Developers do have part of the blame. Now there are more guild perks than ever. What this has caused is that casual guilds are no longer casual. if you do not do everything you can to move the guild to a higher level you are essentially ignored or kicked out.

    What is happening in mmo's is just a reflection of what is happening in the world. The world as a whole is becoming more dog eat dog as population soars and the world economy collapses. Yes there are pockets of civility in the world and there are some in mmos as well - they are just extremely hard to find.

  • SysFailSysFail LondonPosts: 375Member
    Ain't no school like old school... Neither of the games the OP mentions fits into that catergory, but i get the point.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by tordurbar

    As mentioned above, it is not the developers that are against communities, it is the players.

    Well, I wouldn't go that far.

    Roleplay threads used to be the rallying call to "come and judge other gamers!" on forums.

    Community threads have usurped that function.

    Good Old Dayz threads, largely the same.

    Combination of the two? "Rawr, me too!" The ultimate troll, in essence.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Longevity and community

    No one sticks around anymore....Why ?.........No Community, The last time I have seen an mmo with true community tools were the old Vanilla WoW and Everquest 2 days. I'm not talking about liking a game or not, I'm talking about community !....Real servers, very simple.

    I'm starting this topic because I'm mad about Elders Scrolls Online.  Mega servers with zoning to find friends.......come on.....Now will have another 30 day mmo on our hands.  So, what's the answer to all this ?......Simply, find yourself a good Guild, Right ?.....OK will have two million players trying to find that good guild, with 1% really finding one. A good Guild will only take you so far when you have thirty people and only two are your level.  Think about this, think real hard. Is this how your good guilds are too ?

     

    I think I may be done for good with mmos unless we get a developer that really gets it about community. Maybe its just me but I would like to log in, play with friends make new ones with the guy over there fighting Goblins.  Staying away from Jim because he hoggs the loot, and hanging around with Bob because he is a good tank and is good at finding groups.

    I get a kick out of people that constantly complain about gaming communities by blaming the game companies. If people really cared so much for communities the like of which you are talking about then companies would not have to put things like these super servers or grouping instances. The only people you have to blame are the players themselves. The companies are just reacting.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • bloobersbloobers ravensburgPosts: 19Member

    There is a certain sickness going around in all MMO's and it spreads like cancer. The constant screams to make content easier resulted into a faster and faster pace of the games, untill people totally lost patience and respect with each other and to the extent, that communication/community became obsolete.

    Everything in game is nowadays presented on a silver plate to you and nothing, really nothing seems to matter or have consequences anymore. Instant travelling, instant respawn, instanced worlds, dungeon finder with world summon, gear score, you name them..... - all what was invented to make life easier ingame turned into a nightmare for the community.

    2 days ago I logged into my old EQ 1 account after 7 years of absence. It took me hours to understand/remember the game mechanics again, because nothing is presented to you - you need to find it out yourself or ask.

    And then bind points, Clarity, Spirit of the Wolf, Rezzing, deaths, corpse runs, spell fizzles (I first thought my hotbar was broken), go to camp site and so on and so - that all suddenly meant something again. You actually need a group to kill stuff, there is no one hit kill or one man army. You cannot pull 10 mobs and believe to survive this with full HP and/or Mana. One resisted root, one over nuke, one broken charm and you or even the whole group is dead.

    What also really felt strange was, that when I joined a group I was greeted so friendly and there was a constant chatter in group during pulls and med breaks (OMG, yes med breaks), despite it is text based. When I left, people really were sorry seeing me leaving - I haven't had that in years in WoW, Rift, GW2, TSW, SWTOR - no where! And why? Because it meant something that the group is full, you need people to play and suceed, and if you take that away - if you open the door to completely solo the content as an exception - it then will happen and it will become the rule and not the exception.

    Try EQ F2P and see yourself.

    This is just my feeling about things, feel free to have other opinions.

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anthur
    Originally posted by Broomy

    ah the old "Community" angle.  I played EQ2 for two years and it had hands down the most TOXIC community I have ever experienced in an MMO.  Dont beleive me? Go to the EQ2 "flame" site if you havent already.  The majority of the long-time posters there were the foundation of the Everquest 2 community: Racists, sexists, live at home/out of work losers that had nothing to add but gossip, intimidation and hatefulness.    IDK About WOW vanilla but I can speak volumes about EQ2.  Please...dont get me started.  "Community" is the single most overrated concept in MMOs.  We prefer to play with people we know and trust.  If a game allows us to, its a win (at least in that aspect of the game).

    Times and technology change in MMOs and having the ability to play with trusted friends is something people want.  You dont always end up on the same server so its good to have the option (other than rerolling) to play with buddies.  If Elder Scrolls fails, it won't be due to the ability to zone to friends.

    EQ2Flames has nothing to do with the EQ2 community. On EQ2Flames you mostly find those raid elitists, some pvp'ers and wannabees. Sometimes there was some usefull information. But that was probably 1 % of the posts. The majority of EQ2 players never visited or even knew about this site. And I agree with OP, EQ2 had a good community. There were some black sheep but you can't prevent this in an MMO.

    EQ2 has a real comunity,  those who go on flames are the ones who like to stirr stuff up. EQ2falems is where all the raid folks go who are the elite and they sure don't like scrubs.  If you want to find the comunity you go to eq2wire.  

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Longevity and community

    No one sticks around anymore....Why ?.........No Community, The last time I have seen an mmo with true community tools were the old Vanilla WoW and Everquest 2 days. I'm not talking about liking a game or not, I'm talking about community !....Real servers, very simple.

    I'm starting this topic because I'm mad about Elders Scrolls Online.  Mega servers with zoning to find friends.......come on.....Now will have another 30 day mmo on our hands.  So, what's the answer to all this ?......Simply, find yourself a good Guild, Right ?.....OK will have two million players trying to find that good guild, with 1% really finding one. A good Guild will only take you so far when you have thirty people and only two are your level.  Think about this, think real hard. Is this how your good guilds are too ?

     

    I think I may be done for good with mmos unless we get a developer that really gets it about community. Maybe its just me but I would like to log in, play with friends make new ones with the guy over there fighting Goblins.  Staying away from Jim because he hoggs the loot, and hanging around with Bob because he is a good tank and is good at finding groups.

    Disagree completely with what you said.

    First plenty of people stick around and create valid communities, its up to you to find one to be a part of not to have one created around you.  Second, there are plenty of games releasing eveyr year so why wouldnt you want to try them out.  There is nothing that says you "have" to stick to an MMO, plenty do some dont, its our choice.  Lastly Rose tinted glasses are a very evil entity, the things that go on now went on back then but its you who refuse to believe it becasue of those skewed glasses.

    The rose tinted glasses argument is always a crutch to counter these threads. It's like a magical argument that instantly invalidates anything someone else might say because they're remembering it wrong... It also happens to be complete BS.

    I remember very specific things in MMOs in the pre-WoW era that simply don't happen any more. One of those is random strangers in /say stopping to have a conversation. There's no room for nostalgia to cloud my judgement there; it used to happen and now it doesn't.

    Your post also implies you don't understand what people mean by 'community' in the general sense. If you have to deliberately find a community to be a part of then that's a clique not a community. The community is the player population as a whole, it is something you are a part of simply by playing. They used to be much more positive and constructive, people helped each other, and simply by playing the game you would become involved with the community as it was generally beneficial to be social with everyone. Yes there were bad apples there but they were balanced out by the golden apples... these days the general community has almost nothing but bad apples. The result is everyone isolates themselves into cliques called guilds and chooses not to socialise with anyone outside their circle.

    You can throw the rose tinted glasses argument around as much as you like. The fact is no MMO released in the post-WoW era has created that same sense of community.

    By the way, what's with the whole not having to stick to an MMO? The OP wasn't saying you HAD to, they were implying that you would WANT to because the community kept it fun. MMOs used to have enough to keep you playing for years; the fact that most now only last a couple of months at best says a lot and you'd be a fool to think that was also rose tinted glasses.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Longevity and community

    No one sticks around anymore....Why ?.........No Community, The last time I have seen an mmo with true community tools were the old Vanilla WoW and Everquest 2 days. I'm not talking about liking a game or not, I'm talking about community !....Real servers, very simple.

    The last time you saw a community that shared your views.

    After all, a community of people who have differeing views from you, you probably would not perceive as a community.

     

    Community is definitely there in a lot of MMOs. To try to give examples would be futile, though, as anything outside of player views/activities that match yours would be dismissed as not community, not fun  or not important.

     

    If you guys spent half as much time being part of a community as you do complaining they don't exist, you'd enjoy MMOs a lot more. The former takes more effort, though.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Longevity and community

    No one sticks around anymore....Why ?.........No Community, The last time I have seen an mmo with true community tools were the old Vanilla WoW and Everquest 2 days. I'm not talking about liking a game or not, I'm talking about community !....Real servers, very simple.

    The last time you saw a community that shared your views.

    Bingo.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    EQ2 still has a real community.

    If thats what you are looking for support the older games that foster it with your dollar is my advice. If you find reasons (excuses?) not to and just choose to slavishly haul your arse from one new shiney release to the next then you are adding to the problem, not helping it.

     

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    If you guys spent half as much time being part of a community as you do complaining they don't exist, you'd enjoy MMOs a lot more. The former takes more effort, though.

     

    I agree with Lok here.

    Less complaining about 'lack of community' and more active effort in forming/ supporting one please.

    Whining on forums about it means nothing.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Disagree
    Coh released around same time that had strong community.
    I've also found community pretty strong in other games like war, lotr and tsw certainly stronger than bloody wow anyway.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Disagree
    Coh released around same time that had strong community..

    ...on certain servers. Others, you could hear the crickets chirping.

    I had toons on eight of them (originally). And their individual amosphere (ala general chat) were very very different from one to the next. Night and Day.

    This whole thing is so hit or miss, it's ridiculous. There are aspects of "right place/right time" to every opinion expressed thus far in this thread. It's unbelievably subjective.

    But I do suspect the ones habitually most "grumpy" are the ones extending the least of themselves in the way of open hands and effort. Suspect! Can't proove.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    edit: nm - not in the mood to get into this.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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