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NCSoft Earning call conference: GW2 xpac and China release in 2013

2

Comments

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by greenreen
    I think it's showing us that the micro-transaction usage in the game is increasing.

    3rd quarter = July, August, September were about 42,179,828 USD in sales
    4th quarter = October, November, December were about 109,507,821 USD in sales

    Since two million players out of 2.9M est. total were acquired in the third quarter, that means the money has been increasing while the sales of the game have decreased. Clearly the micro-transactions are being pushed better in the fourth quarter unless they are making more profit now on box sales. They had xmas behind sales in November and December but the box sales didn't meet their first airing which was also an inflated sales period. Keeping in mind too that the MOST money made on sales had to be on the first airing of sales, the moments when people had waited 5 years and could finally procure a digital copy. Customers often take the path of least resistance, I expect digital sales were high in that period. Those digital copies must have the most profit because they don't involve a reseller or much of a distribution fee at all if they don't offer packaging.

    Basically, August - Over 1 million sold
    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409224,00.asp

    September - Two million sold
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/177635/Guild_Warsreg_2_Sales_Break_Two_Million_Units.php

    Third Quarter
    Averages 21.90 revenue per player @ 42,179,828 USD / 2,000,000

    Fourth Quarter
    Averages 37.76 revenue per player @ 109,507,821 USD / 2,900,000

    You might look at those numbers and say - about the same but look at it from the angle of box sales reduced in the fourth quarter.

    If you round out $20 for box sales. Then you see that the micro-transactions are kicking in and growing stronger.

    Third Quarter
    2,000,000 * 20 = 40,000,000 revenue from box sales
    42,179,828 - 40,000,000 = 2,179,828 micro-transaction revenue

    Fourth Quarter
    900,000 * 20 = 18,000,000 revenue from box sales
    109,507,821 - 18,000,000 = 91,507,821 micro-transaction revenue

    Unless they lied about box sales and called them out earlier than they happened, it does look to me like they are making more money despite less boxes being sold. Even if you believe there are still 3M people playing the game (which I can't after the changes to the manifesto), what we see is that they are shouldering more of the load for those that did leave because the calculations aren't including those that did jump ship who are definitely not contributing in micro-transactions. If I guesstimate that number high - someone will say - you are saying my game is dead. If I guesstimate low - someone will say - but I don't pay anything to play the game monthly. That one is a no win to start guessing population beyond sales released.

    Your deductions are based on false assumptions.

    As they stated on the report call the lion share of the box sales were accounted in the 4Q12.

    Also, the digital sales from Anet site would bring closer to $48 a box.

    The 3Q12 was only 700K-1M boxes.

    There are no false assumptions. Those were their press releases that reported sales throughout the year. You must think they lied then to the public. I didn't link them for nothing. Did you even follow the links. If you have a problem with what they said then it's THEM you need to talk to. 

     

    Lets see.

    I've linked to the damn financial report call.

    They sold 2 millions in beggining of september 2012 but the money ("lion share" of it) only shows up in 4Q12 financial report..

    NCSoft own words.

    No conflicting information.

    Typical - I'm not even done editing my post and you JUMP on with a response. You just want someone to argue with. You no longer have that.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,223Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Lets see.

    I've linked to the damn financial report call.

    They sold 2 millions in beggining of september 2012 but the money ("lion share" of it) only shows up in 4Q12 financial report..

    NCSoft own words.

    No conflicting information.

    Typical - I'm not even done editing my post and you JUMP on with a response. You just want someone to argue with. You no longer have that.

    Yeah Gaia, he wasn't done editing, didn't you know that?  Could you please wait until we're all done editing and then ask us if it's okay to quote our replies? image (beause it's the funniest emote on the site)

  • OnecrazyguyOnecrazyguy Renton, WAPosts: 83Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by greenreen
    I think it's showing us that the micro-transaction usage in the game is increasing.

    3rd quarter = July, August, September were about 42,179,828 USD in sales
    4th quarter = October, November, December were about 109,507,821 USD in sales

    Since two million players out of 2.9M est. total were acquired in the third quarter, that means the money has been increasing while the sales of the game have decreased. Clearly the micro-transactions are being pushed better in the fourth quarter unless they are making more profit now on box sales. They had xmas behind sales in November and December but the box sales didn't meet their first airing which was also an inflated sales period. Keeping in mind too that the MOST money made on sales had to be on the first airing of sales, the moments when people had waited 5 years and could finally procure a digital copy. Customers often take the path of least resistance, I expect digital sales were high in that period. Those digital copies must have the most profit because they don't involve a reseller or much of a distribution fee at all if they don't offer packaging.

    Basically, August - Over 1 million sold
    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409224,00.asp

    September - Two million sold
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/177635/Guild_Warsreg_2_Sales_Break_Two_Million_Units.php

    Third Quarter
    Averages 21.90 revenue per player @ 42,179,828 USD / 2,000,000

    Fourth Quarter
    Averages 37.76 revenue per player @ 109,507,821 USD / 2,900,000

    You might look at those numbers and say - about the same but look at it from the angle of box sales reduced in the fourth quarter.

    If you round out $20 for box sales. Then you see that the micro-transactions are kicking in and growing stronger.

    Third Quarter
    2,000,000 * 20 = 40,000,000 revenue from box sales
    42,179,828 - 40,000,000 = 2,179,828 micro-transaction revenue

    Fourth Quarter
    900,000 * 20 = 18,000,000 revenue from box sales
    109,507,821 - 18,000,000 = 91,507,821 micro-transaction revenue

    Unless they lied about box sales and called them out earlier than they happened, it does look to me like they are making more money despite less boxes being sold. Even if you believe there are still 3M people playing the game (which I can't after the changes to the manifesto), what we see is that they are shouldering more of the load for those that did leave because the calculations aren't including those that did jump ship who are definitely not contributing in micro-transactions. If I guesstimate that number high - someone will say - you are saying my game is dead. If I guesstimate low - someone will say - but I don't pay anything to play the game monthly. That one is a no win to start guessing population beyond sales released.

    Your deductions are based on false assumptions.

    As they stated on the report call the lion share of the box sales were accounted in the 4Q12.

    Also, the digital sales from Anet site would bring closer to $48 a box.

    The 3Q12 was only 700K-1M boxes.

    There are no false assumptions. Those were their press releases that reported sales throughout the year. You must think they lied then to the public. I didn't link them for nothing. Did you even follow the links. If you have a problem with what they said then it's THEM you need to talk to. 

     

    Lets see.

    I've linked to the damn financial report call.

    They sold 2 millions in beggining of september 2012 but the money ("lion share" of it) only shows up in 4Q12 financial report..

    NCSoft own words.

    No conflicting information.

    Typical - I'm not even done editing my post and you JUMP on with a response. You just want someone to argue with. You no longer have that.

    How do you figure 20 bucks per game? They report full revenue which would be much higher than that on retail games. I think your math is off...

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Originally posted by Karteli

    I hope they don't expect those kinds of initial sales for an expansion :D

     

    GW2 wasn't that great for an interactive MMORPG.  It had all the qualifications, but really lacked the social side.

     

    Some people like solo player MMORPGS.  Some don't.  That's the mix of people who bought this game (via hype).

     

    The expansion will sell far fewer than the vanilla launch.

    It's not the games fault for people being unsocial, It's the generation of MMO players these days. People don't want to group up with some random people when you can just zerg events. 

     It is the game's design that is one of random group zerg. That is what you assert, but you try and lay the blame on societies feet. All of biology is LAZY, just as any fly fisherman. A trout wont chase a fly that doesnt produce more calories than it takes to catch it. People are the same. If you provide more rewards to "Zerg up and roll", that is what they will do. If you provide a system that rewards "build a group", that is what they will do.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,284Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by QSatu
    I have my doubts. GW2 seems like a polar opposite of what Chinese like in their games.

    If the 20 million playing AoW is an indication, I would have to agree.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Four0Six

     It is the game's design that is one of random group zerg. That is what you assert, but you try and lay the blame on societies feet. All of biology is LAZY, just as any fly fisherman. A trout wont chase a fly that doesnt produce more calories than it takes to catch it. People are the same. If you provide more rewards to "Zerg up and roll", that is what they will do. If you provide a system that rewards "build a group", that is what they will do.

    When basic natural needs = entertainment then youll be right.

    PvE pays MUCH more than WvWVW and i still do minimum PvE. Im special? Dont think so, when you provide more avenues to same goal in ENTERTAINMENT people will ultimately choose what they like the best.

    Forced grouping provided nothing but pitful results and anti-social behavour (it is pretty much definition of anti-social).

    "Old school MMOs" forced people to do certain things and forced them to do them in a certain way, and that was ultimately their complete failure, because vast majority rejected that line of reasoning.

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon
    Gotta say I find 2.9M total boxes sold disappointingly low for the game that was anticipated as "be all, end all". I can say I don't know any single person that has spent a dime in the cash shop, but as long as they're not losing money, there is hope that they'll fix the game's problems and have returning players. I already paid for the box, so may as well check it out if they improve it somehow.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,830Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by greenreen
    I think it's showing us that the micro-transaction usage in the game is increasing.

    3rd quarter = July, August, September were about 42,179,828 USD in sales
    4th quarter = October, November, December were about 109,507,821 USD in sales

    Since two million players out of 2.9M est. total were acquired in the third quarter, that means the money has been increasing while the sales of the game have decreased. Clearly the micro-transactions are being pushed better in the fourth quarter unless they are making more profit now on box sales. They had xmas behind sales in November and December but the box sales didn't meet their first airing which was also an inflated sales period. Keeping in mind too that the MOST money made on sales had to be on the first airing of sales, the moments when people had waited 5 years and could finally procure a digital copy. Customers often take the path of least resistance, I expect digital sales were high in that period. Those digital copies must have the most profit because they don't involve a reseller or much of a distribution fee at all if they don't offer packaging.

    Basically, August - Over 1 million sold
    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409224,00.asp

    September - Two million sold
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/177635/Guild_Warsreg_2_Sales_Break_Two_Million_Units.php

    Third Quarter
    Averages 21.90 revenue per player @ 42,179,828 USD / 2,000,000

    Fourth Quarter
    Averages 37.76 revenue per player @ 109,507,821 USD / 2,900,000

    You might look at those numbers and say - about the same but look at it from the angle of box sales reduced in the fourth quarter.

    If you round out $20 for box sales. Then you see that the micro-transactions are kicking in and growing stronger.

    Third Quarter
    2,000,000 * 20 = 40,000,000 revenue from box sales
    42,179,828 - 40,000,000 = 2,179,828 micro-transaction revenue

    Fourth Quarter
    900,000 * 20 = 18,000,000 revenue from box sales
    109,507,821 - 18,000,000 = 91,507,821 micro-transaction revenue

    Unless they lied about box sales and called them out earlier than they happened, it does look to me like they are making more money despite less boxes being sold. Even if you believe there are still 3M people playing the game (which I can't after the changes to the manifesto), what we see is that they are shouldering more of the load for those that did leave because the calculations aren't including those that did jump ship who are definitely not contributing in micro-transactions. If I guesstimate that number high - someone will say - you are saying my game is dead. If I guesstimate low - someone will say - but I don't pay anything to play the game monthly. That one is a no win to start guessing population beyond sales released.

    Your deductions are based on false assumptions.

    As they stated on the report call the lion share of the box sales were accounted in the 4Q12.

    Also, the digital sales from Anet site would bring closer to $48 a box.

    The 3Q12 was only 700K-1M boxes.

    There are no false assumptions. Those were their press releases that reported sales throughout the year. You must think they lied then to the public. I didn't link them for nothing. Did you even follow the links. If you have a problem with what they said then it's THEM you need to talk to. 

     

    Lets see.

    I've linked to the damn financial report call.

    They sold 2 millions in beggining of september 2012 but the money ("lion share" of it) only shows up in 4Q12 financial report..

    NCSoft own words.

    No conflicting information.

    Typical - I'm not even done editing my post and you JUMP on with a response. You just want someone to argue with. You no longer have that.

    I'm not arguing.

    I'm saying you are wrong and had you listened to the conference call you would know that you are wrong- the $40M of 3Q12 don't include 2 million sales.

    Had you done your research you would also know it is estimated NCSoft gets $48 per box sold by Anet via their website.

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild0-wars-2-thanksgiving-in-tyria/

    --------------

    Edit:

    Lets explain step by step my estimates:

    We know GW2 had $41M sales in 3Q12 and $109M in 4Q12.

    I estimate (at least) 50% digital sales at $48 direct revenue and 50% digital and box sales at varied prices from 3rd party with  an average of $30.

    So $72M + $45M = $117M box sales

    $33M microtransactions, or 22% of the revenue generated by GW2.

    $33M/4 months = $8.25M/month or $100M/year if gem sales remain flat.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    If you look at the report (the pdf on NCSoft's website) - A.Net netted 52,790 million KRW in Q4 = 48.33 million US Dollars. That is in Q4 alone - it is huge.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,830Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    If you look at the report (the pdf on NCSoft's website) - A.Net netted 52,790 million KRW in Q4 = 48.33 million US Dollars. That is in Q4 alone - it is huge.

    $110M actually for GW2.

    GW2 sales go through Arenanet, NCSoft Europe and NC Interactive.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zzad

    launch in China is going to sky-rocket sales!

    It will feel good to hear the world to revert to the subs arguments tellng us how China doesn't count again.

    I think Blizzard confused gamers (essentially simple creatures) with "China totally counts". Because up to that point, EQ fans had been telling us it didn't.

    amusing and i agree

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,830Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zzad

    launch in China is going to sky-rocket sales!

    It will feel good to hear the world to revert to the subs arguments tellng us how China doesn't count again.

    I think Blizzard confused gamers (essentially simple creatures) with "China totally counts". Because up to that point, EQ fans had been telling us it didn't.

    amusing and i agree

    China totally counts just not $15 a pop. :)

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zzad

    launch in China is going to sky-rocket sales!

    It will feel good to hear the world to revert to the subs arguments tellng us how China doesn't count again.

    I think Blizzard confused gamers (essentially simple creatures) with "China totally counts". Because up to that point, EQ fans had been telling us it didn't.

    amusing and i agree

    China totally counts just not $15 a pop. :)

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,830Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zzad

    launch in China is going to sky-rocket sales!

    It will feel good to hear the world to revert to the subs arguments tellng us how China doesn't count again.

    I think Blizzard confused gamers (essentially simple creatures) with "China totally counts". Because up to that point, EQ fans had been telling us it didn't.

    amusing and i agree

    China totally counts just not $15 a pop. :)

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    It is easy.

    Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

    We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

    Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    Well, estimates i heard is that China accounts for 10% of WoW income with more people playing than in West.
    And they pay by the hour, theres no sub there.

    But what IS good for Blizzard is marketing purpose, as they can still (falsley) claim they have "10m" subs. By the way they count subs, any F2P can also claim it has "subs"

    Anyway, what model NCSoft will use is China is up to them, and they do have experience with the market so i guess they might knw what they are doing :)

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    It is easy.

    Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

    We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

    Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

    Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account? And for the record I never said that Chinese players buy the box version of WoW but they do buy time cards to play it. But you're assuming that they will buy boxes for Guild Wars 2 for some reason? And revenue? How will they determine revenue with a micro transaction cash shop that has no hindrance on gameplay? Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

     

    All I'm really getting at is that it's high time western players stop slandering any market where revenue is to be made. Subs, free players, cash shop junkies, special and collection edition buyers. It's all irrevelant to a company's  bottom line as far as where the money's coming from, so long as the money is coming.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,830Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    It is easy.

    Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

    We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

    Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

    Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account? And for the record I never said that Chinese players buy the box version of WoW but they do buy time cards to play it. But you're assuming that they will buy boxes for Guild Wars 2 for some reason? And revenue? How will they determine revenue with a micro transaction cash shop that has no hindrance on gameplay? Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

     

    All I'm really getting at is that it's high time western players stop slandering any market where revenue is to be made. Subs, free players, cash shop junkies, special and collection edition buyers. It's all irrevelant to a company's  bottom line as far as where the money's coming from, so long as the money is coming.

    Have you played GW2?

    For you to create an account you need a serial key.

    No different from the time cards blizzard sells to the chinese players where they add a serial with game time.

     

    What you getting at is a confusion people make to confuse stuff.

    Arenanet doesn't come out and say "we have these million players". They say "we have sold these million copies". NCSoft says "we have sold these million boxes + micro transactions and that is equal to xxxx money".

    The problem is that Blizzard say "we have these many subs". The western player assumes it is $15 sub when it isn't. They could say "we have these many paying players" and there would be no confusions.

    Also, it seems the ones having a problem with chinese players is the western WoW players, when people say there is 3-4 million WoW players in the west and 5-6 million WoW players in the East.

     

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Karteli

    GW2 wasn't that great for an interactive MMORPG.  It had all the qualifications, but really lacked the social side.

     only for those that need a game to make them social...social people have no issues at all and my servers chat proves it every time I am logged in.

    But as you said, it brought in two kinds of players...to bad you got the catagories wrong.

    I never understood this need for people to require game "to make them social"

    I never had any problem being social in games they proclaim as "solo online MMOs"

    Really start to surface its not games fault but those people fault.

    Its pretty much obvious MMOs are not for them and they should move to single player games.

    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    It's not the games fault for people being unsocial, It's the generation of MMO players these days. People don't want to group up with some random people when you can just zerg events.

    people want to group, they are just not forced to group with you. Nothing wrong with game or other people. Start to look for cause  somewhere else.

    GW2 is one of the few games out there that actually force people to group with other people. In other games, grouping may be the only efficient way to progress so that people feel "forced" to group (you could play solo but it wouldn't be nearly as efficient), but in GW2, the game automatically  groups you so that you do not compete for loot and cannot "grief" each other.

  • BetakodoBetakodo Poor land, FLPosts: 338Member
    Originally posted by QSatu
    I have my doubts. GW2 seems like a polar opposite of what Chinese like in their games.

    The Chinese seem to like Ancient Chinese settings or overly cutesy SD games. I don't know how those SD games survive there, anime styled I'm OK with, but not SD cute everywhere.

    Anyways, is there going to be more cash shop crap in a buy to play game with buy to play expansion content? Seriously, they shouldn't have made commander buyable with gold. Or did they do that on purpose so people would buy more gems? I think yeah from the poo poo I've seen commanders spewing in WvW.

    I don't think you're really forced to group in Guild Wars 2 for anything but dungeons. WvW yeah you could, but really you can solo a supply camp fine. I think duo is optimal for that.

  • WarbandWarband ChesterPosts: 723Member
    Originally posted by Betakodo
    Originally posted by QSatu
    I have my doubts. GW2 seems like a polar opposite of what Chinese like in their games.

    The Chinese seem to like Ancient Chinese settings or overly cutesy SD games. I don't know how those SD games survive there, anime styled I'm OK with, but not SD cute everywhere.

    Anyways, is there going to be more cash shop crap in a buy to play game with buy to play expansion content? Seriously, they shouldn't have made commander buyable with gold. Or did they do that on purpose so people would buy more gems? I think yeah from the poo poo I've seen commanders spewing in WvW.

    I don't think you're really forced to group in Guild Wars 2 for anything but dungeons. WvW yeah you could, but really you can solo a supply camp fine. I think duo is optimal for that.

     TbF I'm pretty sure sure boxed sales do just fine in China depending on the game. Diablo 3 most probably sould a good few million in China alone nd that does have a chinese setting, it really just comes down to the game, If the Chinese feel it's worth the price they'll buy it if they feel it isn't thy won't.

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    It is easy.

    Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

    We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

    Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

    Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account?

     Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

     

    The fact that the previous account has only Guild Wars 1 ?

    GW2 IS NOT FREE TO PLAY and you CAN NOT just register to play... You HAVE TO BUY THE BOX to create 1 single account (which every single internet caffee will have to do in order to get the game in first place) in which you can create 5 characters unless you buy more character slots in the cash shop, so unless internet caffees won't be buying the character slots for every single person who comes to their shop to play GW2 (which is also good for ANet/NCsoft) it means people who'd actually come to the shop would need to have their own account WHICH THEY BOUGHT in order to actually preserve their character from being deleted by some random guy who wants to play the game and doesn't have any more character slots left to create the new character.

    I think you've got the wrong idea about GW2 model from the very beginning... B2P is not the same as F2P and people like you should really learn the difference. The same thing is with GW1, you have to buy the box to register your account - it's not free..

    Regarding the gold farming, no... They do it in every single mmorpg in which it's worth farming for profit. I tought everybody knew that.

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Zzad

    And that launch in China is going to sky-rocket sales!

    It will feel good to hear the world to revert to the subs arguments tellng us how China doesn't count again.

    I think Blizzard confused gamers (essentially simple creatures) with "China totally counts". Because up to that point, EQ fans had been telling us it didn't.

    Still, GW2's got to be a huge disappointment to fans of the Old Tyme Subs Argument. "How will we handle this one, we need mmogcharts and chit, oh noes!"

    We might have to compare...incomes?? How will we handle currency conversion rates? We can only argue once per quarter?

    Sometimes,after filtering through all the snarkiness your posts do bring up valid points. image

    Due to the decline of the sub model over the past 5 years, along with Game companies unwillingness to share actually how many people are online or have active accounts, or in the case of GW2, are nearly unmeasurable, how can you measure the success of one title, especially against another. 

    Revenue and profitibility might be the only way in the end, but even there, since many companies such as NCSoft have multiple titles, it sometimes will be hard to discern how much of the revenue comes from a particular game. (though NCSoft has always done a pretty good job in breaking them out)

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Ramonski7

    The chinese have a cheap way of playing online (taken from wiki):

    Although China's growing economy has boosted the economic prospects of most Chinese in the last couple of decades, the cost of a personal computer, video game console, or Internet connection remains prohibitive for many Chinese. Because of this, Internet cafes and Internet cafe gaming have become quite popular in the country. Rather than purchasing their own hardware and software, users are simply charged a small fee (often by the hour) to use an Internet cafe computer which often comes preloaded with a selection of games. Internet cafes have contributed significantly to the growing number of young Chinese computer addicts. Chinese internet cafes often impose age limits to protect minors from what may be adult content.

     

    And with so many chinese internet cafes do you really think ANets profits will be coming from box sales or cash shop? Think hard before you answer. People here were so quick to dismiss Blizzard and their counting of chinese subs. But truth be told, chinese gamers still had to make a commitment to actual PAY for something with WoW, WoW physical times card could not be used for anything other than playing WoW. There is no such stipulation for ANet and GW2, yet. And since cafes will be supplying the software and the cash shop has always been touted as light on gameplay reliance what need would any of those chinese players have to buy anything?

     

    This leaves only one option for ANet to take... (same thing Blizzard did) sell physical time cards. Mark my words, soon ANet will be charging a sub (albeit a chinese wow-type sub at least) to make a bulk of their money in China. I wonder then will WoW's chinese way of counting subs count for ANet then? I mean their parent company NCSoft did do this with Aion through Shanda when they released it in China. As read here:

    The publisher then decided to establish a new model for the game in China, where users had to purchase physical time cards which afforded more hours playing the game; essentially making it an extended version of the classic arcade cabinet system.

     

    You can find the whole article here. Either way it goes I will be curious to see how the WoW-chinese-players-are-cheap-so-they-don't-count detractors react to ANet's stance to charge chinese players more for something we play cheaper for once we buy the initial box. Will the shoe be on the other foot and we become the cheap ass western players that don't count then?

    It is easy.

    Arenanet will sell the accounts to players and get microtransactions.

    We will look at boxes sold and revenue instead of saying 6 million China subs = 6M*$15.

    Chinese players that play WoW in cafes don't have to buy the box by the way.

    Accounts you say? You mean the free accounts created to register for betas and other games listed for a given company. You mean like Chinese players will have to pay for registration? Highly unlikely. Like I pointed out above, in cafes the software has already been preloaded and activated on all the pcs in the shops. And what if they already have a NCSoft account or ANet account because of the first  Guild Wars?  What then? Whats stopping them from sitting down at a pc, logging in with their freely created or previously created NCSoft account? And for the record I never said that Chinese players buy the box version of WoW but they do buy time cards to play it. But you're assuming that they will buy boxes for Guild Wars 2 for some reason? And revenue? How will they determine revenue with a micro transaction cash shop that has no hindrance on gameplay? Or do Chinese players actual play GW2 because its fun but only play WoW to farm gold?

     

    All I'm really getting at is that it's high time western players stop slandering any market where revenue is to be made. Subs, free players, cash shop junkies, special and collection edition buyers. It's all irrevelant to a company's  bottom line as far as where the money's coming from, so long as the money is coming.

    Have you played GW2?

    For you to create an account you need a serial key.

    No different from the time cards blizzard sells to the chinese players where they add a serial with game time.

     

    What you getting at is a confusion people make to confuse stuff.

    Arenanet doesn't come out and say "we have these million players". They say "we have sold these million copies". NCSoft says "we have sold these million boxes + micro transactions and that is equal to xxxx money".

    The problem is that Blizzard say "we have these many subs". The western player assumes it is $15 sub when it isn't. They could say "we have these many paying players" and there would be no confusions.

    Also, it seems the ones having a problem with chinese players is the western WoW players, when people say there is 3-4 million WoW players in the west and 5-6 million WoW players in the East.

     

     

     

    Yes I have. I played quite extensively for a while. Made it to level 63 with about 54% completion.

    Maybe in the west. Because boxes are sold and keys are needed for proof of purchase. There is no such system needed in China. For example here, explains the steps one needs to take in order to play WoW in China. Creating a BattleNET account cost nothing and everyone is free to play up to level 20. It's only when you want to play pass level 20 is when you have to recharge your account with time cards.

    The time cards Blizzard sells have serial numbers that are unique to each time card just like here in the US (the scratch off on the back of each card). The steps needed to take in order to recharge your account can be found  here. Each card cost about $4. And to give you perspective on just how much that amount is. The average monthly income for a middle class family of 3 in China is around $750. And the average cell phone bill is $10 a month.

    What I'm getting at is unless ANet and NCSoft plan to charge Chinese players $60 dollars in what amounts to a activation card. And relying on micro transactions prices that are equivalent to US prices, I see no way for them to actually count box sales or cash shop revenue like they do in the west. Because if for any reason the prices are brought down to levels more aligned to typical prices that are normal to what Chinese players are grown to expect from a new mmo and that mmo's cash shop, you can definitely count on the naysayers here to dismiss Chinese players if they are paying $5 to activate a account (aka a box sale) and pennies on the dollar for cash shop prices.

     

    Because let's not try to fool anyone here. Chinese players will NOT be paying the same prices for GW2 and it's cash shop as we do here, period. And it is the main reason why I believe revenue is revenue and if Blizzard wants to call timecard sales, subs then who cares? They still are buying a paying a sub, just not on a monthly basis. And on both counts, revenue is being brought in by both companies. But these points will yet again fall on deaf ears because of blind devotions on both sides of the fence. And this is coming from someone that enjoyed both games immensely at one poiint in time.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli

    I hope they don't expect those kinds of initial sales for an expansion :D

     

    GW2 wasn't that great for an interactive MMORPG.  It had all the qualifications, but really lacked the social side.

     

    Some people like solo player MMORPGS.  Some don't.  That's the mix of people who bought this game (via hype).

     

    The expansion will sell far fewer than the vanilla launch.

    Well I guess it depends completely on what there will be in the expansion. For all we know it could be a jesus expansion that gets all the current and former players to buy it plus a ton of new players.

    Unlikely, but possible.

     

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    I gotta love how a "spotlight poster" makes posts with only assumptions and not a single reality based fact in order to bash a game. Another proof that those titles are just complete BS.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

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