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1.7 and the forced PVP debate

24

Comments

  • NikopolNikopol The ZonePosts: 626Member Uncommon

    This is why in a game that includes both PVP and PVE content, the two parts should be 50/50.

    Any amount of stuff you get via PVE, you should get the same amount of comparable versions in PVP.

    You get a purely PVE zone? You should get a PVP zone to balance it out.

    You have PVE titles, you should have the same amount of PVP titles; and you PVE buffs, you should get the same amount of similar-strength PVP buffs...  and so on...

    I guess the developers just see PVP as "gameplay that produces its own content" (i.e. player conflict), but I'm afraid that's not nearly good enough. It can work in sandboxy games like EVE - and that's because EVE has well-implemented systems tailored for it - but in a directed-content MMO such as SWTOR, the developers just has to keep putting in new PVP content and not make do with "oh, another Warzone".

    I've played with a lot of PVP players and never saw one satisfied with just "another warzone".

     

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    Maybe it's a bit oversimplistic, but to expect a Star Wars MMO without spcae combat (Star) or any PVP (Wars) seems odd to me.

    But that is just one opinion in a sea of many.

    I don't see how an MMO can have interesting end game without PVP. You can only do the same flashpoints and quests so many times before it goes stale. So what is a company supposed to do? Keep spending time on content that will be burned thru in two weeks(Makeb) or create content that like 1.7 will have a longer shelf life?

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    Maybe it's a bit oversimplistic, but to expect a Star Wars MMO without spcae combat (Star) or any PVP (Wars) seems odd to me.

    But that is just one opinion in a sea of many.

    I don't see how an MMO can have interesting end game without PVP. You can only do the same flashpoints and quests so many times before it goes stale. So what is a company supposed to do? Keep spending time on content that will be burned thru in two weeks(Makeb) or create content that like 1.7 will have a longer shelf life?

    Personally I do not give a stuff about PvP. Besting other people in a combat system does not excite me. In SWG if I am overt for whatever reason like getting triple points for decorating a tree in the christmas event, and someone finds me I just let them kill me and not fight back, and then just carry on.

    How about a story (Flashpoint/Operations/Warzone) creator? Like CoH Architect system,  EQ2 Dungeon Maker, STOs Foundry, SWGs Chronicle system. This would add endless fun for everyone

    or how about city invasions? Various NPCs /creatures spawn around the place and have to join in and get rid of them, like what SWG had in its final days or the Bestine / Keren / Dearic invasions

    or make the crafting more deep. When you find a resources node, it has various levels of quality. One node might give 66% quality and then when it respawns in the same spot it might give 89%  quality

    or make the ability to explore the worlds and clone companions - sneak up behind a NPC and get its DNA, then go to your ship where you have the facilities and clone that NPC and make him a companion.

    or instanced housing, where players can decorate their place, with looted items / trophies, even STO has this on the the ship

    or being able to set up a shop somewhere, and sell your crafted gear, even Phantasy Star Universe had this

    or fishing - a nice calm relaxing way to spend your time, in LOTRO or SWG, and collect various fish, with some super rare ones. In SWTOR you could try and catch super rare fish that you can trade in and earn Cartel Coins, the more rare they are the more CC you get.

    but then SWTORs problem is its engine does not seem to be able to add the fun stuff of other MMOs

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by BadOrb

    You never know the rewards in the ilum part of the rep system might only be PVP items. you never know , anyways i think it would be all well and good to give PVP players an event  , why not ? I'm a PVE player but do I care that this zone might auto flag me ( if I go there ) ? nope.

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    Wish more PVE players had your viewpoint.  Cheers.

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon

    i am sure this has been said but why should i be forced to raid to get that gear?

    pve'ers have their raid gear and raid content, those whining about this can go pound sand lol

    that goes for any game too.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Maybe it's a bit oversimplistic, but to expect a Star Wars MMO without spcae combat (Star) or any PVP (Wars) seems odd to me.But that is just one opinion in a sea of many.

    KOTOR while not an MMO had neither as well and people seemed to love that game.

    that said, i play online games to compete against other players (and compete with them too)

    if this game didn't have pvp i wouldn't be playing it right now probably.

  • DavynelordDavynelord Atlanta, GAPosts: 122Member
    [mod edit]

     

     

    Because MMO's are made for everyone...the more things you can choose to do and enjoy, the better success the game will have...you want to appeal to every type of person because that means more revenue for the game company.....believe it or not there are far more casual players who play MMO's for PVE, Roleplay, Novelty etc... than there are PVPers....PVPers are usually the most hardcore gamers because PVP isn't rewarding or satisfying most of the time until you get ot max level.   Therefore, unless a game is 100% based around Open PVP, no one should be complaining about full time or part time PVE players or vice versa.

     

     

    Anyway, this game shouldn't have anyone complaining about PVE or PVP....it's one of the easiest games to level up in and get PVP worthy gear too.   Not only that, but PVP in this game is one of the most balanced and fair of any MMO I've ever played in that last 15 years....

     

    SWTOR is childsplay compared to other MMO's...Pvp in this game is nothing to cry and whine about....I mean your practically handed everything to you through warzones....what game can you play and have a full PVP set before you even get max level?   

     

    And no I am not a huge PVPer in any MMO....I'd say I'm normally 80% PVE, 5% goofing around, 5% digging into game mechanics and 10% PVP......but this game has got me doing about 45% PVP LOL....I even leveled my last 30 levels doing nothing but warzones.....I just hate huttball though :P

     

     

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    1.7 goes live this coming Tuesday, so we'll see how it all shakes out soon enough.

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by superniceguy

    Personally I do not give a stuff about PvP. Besting other people in a combat system does not excite me. In SWG if I am overt for whatever reason like getting triple points for decorating a tree in the christmas event, and someone finds me I just let them kill me and not fight back, and then just carry on.

    How about a story (Flashpoint/Operations/Warzone) creator? Like CoH Architect system,  EQ2 Dungeon Maker, STOs Foundry, SWGs Chronicle system. This would add endless fun for everyone

    or how about city invasions? Various NPCs /creatures spawn around the place and have to join in and get rid of them, like what SWG had in its final days or the Bestine / Keren / Dearic invasions

    or make the crafting more deep. When you find a resources node, it has various levels of quality. One node might give 66% quality and then when it respawns in the same spot it might give 89%  quality

    or make the ability to explore the worlds and clone companions - sneak up behind a NPC and get its DNA, then go to your ship where you have the facilities and clone that NPC and make him a companion.

    or instanced housing, where players can decorate their place, with looted items / trophies, even STO has this on the the ship

    or being able to set up a shop somewhere, and sell your crafted gear, even Phantasy Star Universe had this

    or fishing - a nice calm relaxing way to spend your time, in LOTRO or SWG, and collect various fish, with some super rare ones. In SWTOR you could try and catch super rare fish that you can trade in and earn Cartel Coins, the more rare they are the more CC you get.

    but then SWTORs problem is its engine does not seem to be able to add the fun stuff of other MMOs

     Agreed. These are the sorts of things the game really needs, and more. MMO players are more diverse in their interests and developers need to capitalise on this by offering more varied and complex systems to keep them engaged. I don't much care for PVP and I care even less for end-game PVE as it currently exists.  As things are, I'm going to hit 50 and quit. It's been a blast, really, but end-game has nothing to hold my interest.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Forced pvp to get rewards is terrible design structure, sooooooo many games scared their playerbase away with this very easily Aion comes to mind instantly and then it was left in the dust of mmo history because of this very problem.

     

    That being said, if they already have equivalent pve gear out and content out, then I don't get what people are arguing over. I'd be happy with the pve content if there was plenty to do outside of dungeons and the game has some system of gathering currency/improvements in pve without grouping. That's always a really great balance when they do that. If this is indeed the case then they really have nothing to argue about.

  • taloshztaloshz appleton, WIPosts: 15Member

    The reality is that pvp is a niche enviroment in the MMO world that is a fact. Take a look at any full on pvp game and it usually never succeeds. People quote EVE as a success welp eve really is  NOT a mmorpg. its more a multiplayer space sim game which is an  enitrely diffrent situation. People are more likely to accept being blown out the sky in a ship then they are  on a character. Do not ask m why but that is how it is. PVE  MMO will always be the ones which will outlast and create revenue even if its minimal. There is a far bigger player base. I think the problem with it is the fact that a very small percentage of pvp players  are causing the whole  group to be classified as gankers. I have seen comments that PVE will die to a mob 100 times and dont get upset but will to a player there is a reason for that. You do not have the mob acting like a 2 yr old child hopped up on suguar insulting you every second because they beat you.  You can find that mentality in any game that allowes pvp. Hell even when they make it where  you cannot understand the otherside you till see jibberish flashing across the  screen,

    PVP is nowhere near how it was in the past. The older  MMO generation at least showed alittle respect during pvp matches something that is completely lost now. I used to enjoy pvp but now I will not touch it because the maturity level has dropped so far below intelligent level its just not worth the insults. But thats  just a mute point here with this subject.

    I think the biggest issue with games these days is that devs try to force crossing over of the 2 branches to fit there needs. They realize that pvp is never going to be the big thing that there PVP customers want os they try to make it better by forcing more people into pvp by placing gear that is better  used in the high end of pve then the items the pve players have already. They know that serious hardcore raiding guilds will force there people to play in pvp to get those items even if the player doesn want to ever pvp. This in turn is what causes major problems in games. They need to just seperate the 2 completey. There is no need for pvp armor to be on par with pve gear or pve gear to be oin par with pvp gear. If you want to do both then you should have to work at both. They should make pvp armor useless in pve that you cannot even equip it in non pvp zones and  do the same for pve gear. This would completely solve the problem of crossover armorr. But they will never do that because like some have stated. The small niche pvp clan in a ftp game do provide the most revenue and how do you increase that revenue by forcing pve players into pvp. Got to love it dont you.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Forced pvp to get rewards is terrible design structure, sooooooo many games scared their playerbase away with this very easily Aion comes to mind instantly and then it was left in the dust of mmo history because of this very problem.

     In my view catering to the carebear crowd is what destroys games. SWG is the best example of this. That game went through constant changes the first couple years because SOE wanted to make getting jedi easier and easier and this was done at the expense of the game. 

    That being said, if they already have equivalent pve gear out and content out, then I don't get what people are arguing over. I'd be happy with the pve content if there was plenty to do outside of dungeons and the game has some system of gathering currency/improvements in pve without grouping. That's always a really great balance when they do that. If this is indeed the case then they really have nothing to argue about.

    They  don't have anything to argue about. There is already multiple levels of PVE gear available eg: Ty,Colum,Rakata and Black Hole. In order to get most of it you have to do flashpoints and operations. If you don't like doing either? You can do the Section X and Black Hole quests for the Black Hole gear but it will take longer. PVE only players have plenty of content to do in this game and they have an entire planet coming out with the next expansion. This is just a case of some selfish players getting pissy because the next update isn't geared towards them. 

     

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • jmr03103jmr03103 Manchester, NHPosts: 3Member
    PvP was really never my thing, since i tried it in a few games over the years. As Pve is more to my style, i say let the pvpers have something that they can get rewarded for THEIR playstyle. I do not need pvp gear. Anything that keeps the player base happy and playing, is fine with me.
  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by taloshz

    The reality is that pvp is a niche enviroment in the MMO world that is a fact. Take a look at any full on pvp game and it usually never succeeds. People quote EVE as a success welp eve really is  NOT a mmorpg. its more a multiplayer space sim game which is an  enitrely diffrent situation. People are more likely to accept being blown out the sky in a ship then they are  on a character. Do not ask m why but that is how it is. PVE  MMO will always be the ones which will outlast and create revenue even if its minimal. There is a far bigger player base. I think the problem with it is the fact that a very small percentage of pvp players  are causing the whole  group to be classified as gankers. I have seen comments that PVE will die to a mob 100 times and dont get upset but will to a player there is a reason for that. You do not have the mob acting like a 2 yr old child hopped up on suguar insulting you every second because they beat you.  You can find that mentality in any game that allowes pvp. Hell even when they make it where  you cannot understand the otherside you till see jibberish flashing across the  screen,

    PVP is nowhere near how it was in the past. The older  MMO generation at least showed alittle respect during pvp matches something that is completely lost now. I used to enjoy pvp but now I will not touch it because the maturity level has dropped so far below intelligent level its just not worth the insults. But thats  just a mute point here with this subject.

    I think the biggest issue with games these days is that devs try to force crossing over of the 2 branches to fit there needs. They realize that pvp is never going to be the big thing that there PVP customers want os they try to make it better by forcing more people into pvp by placing gear that is better  used in the high end of pve then the items the pve players have already. They know that serious hardcore raiding guilds will force there people to play in pvp to get those items even if the player doesn want to ever pvp. This in turn is what causes major problems in games. They need to just seperate the 2 completey. There is no need for pvp armor to be on par with pve gear or pve gear to be oin par with pvp gear. If you want to do both then you should have to work at both. They should make pvp armor useless in pve that you cannot even equip it in non pvp zones and  do the same for pve gear. This would completely solve the problem of crossover armorr. But they will never do that because like some have stated. The small niche pvp clan in a ftp game do provide the most revenue and how do you increase that revenue by forcing pve players into pvp. Got to love it dont you.

    IMO I think the seperation of people based on playstyle is the worse thing to happen to MMOs. Players have now been conditioned to think that the opposite playstyle shouldn't be seen or heard on their servers. The reality is that most people like a little of both. Some days I'm in the mood to just do some quests and other days I'm in the mood to throw down and test my skills against another player. Far as PVP being a niche, if you mean the PVP only crowd then yes. But the same could be said for the PVE only crowd. Both of those sides are the extreme minority that loves to make like they are the majoirty. I play on a PVE-RP server and I rarely run into players that don't have valor points. After this coming Tuesday I would suspect their valor points to go up even more because now PVP won't be restricted to the same tired warzones. Servers should not be seperated by playstyles. Make them all the same. If PVEers don't want to PVP they can not go overt and avoid the PVP areas. Simple.  

    Seperating gear by playstyles was also a bad move because now you've added one more thing for both sides to fight over. There should be no expertise or anything else that consitutes "I Win" for a player.Gear should not be the deciding factor in any PVP match. The seperation is ecouraged because the PVE only crowd thinks that all of the best gear should be done by raiding. Screw crafters , screw PVPers and screw anyone that doesn't like raiding. Got to love it don't you.

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • trancejeremytrancejeremy St. Louis, MOPosts: 1,222Member
    If PVP is so popular, why is it on every game I played, the PvP servers are the least crowded?

    Including this game. Very Heavy, Very Heavy, Heavy, and the PvP server is standard.

    R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by trancejeremy
    If PVP is so popular, why is it on every game I played, the PvP servers are the least crowded? Including this game. Very Heavy, Very Heavy, Heavy, and the PvP server is standard.

    Who said anything about PVP being more popular? And just because there are more populated PVE servers doesn't mean that PVE is all those players want to do. Before all the mergers happened the most populated server was The Fatman, a PVP server. Since then the new content has been PVE focused so naturally the more PVP oriented players have left. Who knows what would have happened if Ilum hadn't been scrapped. 

    The new event is going to happen in two days. Let's see how many players on those PVE servers skip the so-called "forced PVP" event ;)

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • ThebigbopperThebigbopper melbournePosts: 114Member

     Some people who like Pvp servers play on Pve servers because thier friends they play with do not like pvp. There are people too who like Pvp but like to choose when they want to pvp. Some people do not want to be ganked when hunting mobs when lvling but really enjoy pvp.

     This is not forcing people to pvp and no one will have to pvp that does not want to!

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Thebigbopper

     Some people who like Pvp servers play on Pve servers because thier friends they play with do not like pvp. There are people too who like Pvp but like to choose when they want to pvp. Some people do not want to be ganked when hunting mobs when lvling but really enjoy pvp.

     This is not forcing people to pvp and no one will have to pvp that does not want to!

    Exactly. I like to PVP, but I also like to do questing in a gank free environment. PVE servers are perfect for this. If I want to PVP, I have warzones and soon I'll also have Ilum. If PVE only people don't want to be forced to PVP, then they can avoid warzones and Ilum. Plain and friggin simple. 

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member
    Pffff," Hardcore PvE" players are just so used to being able to show of the best gear, they can't bear the thought of not getting something without having to actually PvP some. It's pretty pathetic, but there you have it. PvP-ers don't cry all over the forums because they can't get the raiders-only gear, but the PvE-ers a different crowd apparently.

    imageimage
  • catlanacatlana Houston, TXPosts: 1,677Member
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Thebigbopper

     Some people who like Pvp servers play on Pve servers because thier friends they play with do not like pvp. There are people too who like Pvp but like to choose when they want to pvp. Some people do not want to be ganked when hunting mobs when lvling but really enjoy pvp.

     This is not forcing people to pvp and no one will have to pvp that does not want to!

    Exactly. I like to PVP, but I also like to do questing in a gank free environment. PVE servers are perfect for this. If I want to PVP, I have warzones and soon I'll also have Ilum. If PVE only people don't want to be forced to PVP, then they can avoid warzones and Ilum. Plain and friggin simple. 

    The above is pretty much my opinion as well. If you do not want to pvp, do not go to Ilum. I am not really sure why people are having an issue with that.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by ktanner3

    There is a big argument going on the forums over 1.7. Basically it comes down to PVE players wanting the new items from the new upcoming  Ilum event but not wanting to be "forced" as they put it to PVP in order to get them. This is deja vu for those of you that remember the cries of "forced PVP" in SWG over the Jedi profession and then Restuss.

     

    Why is it that people who only PVE  think that every bit of new content that comes out should be made specifically for them? This game has tons of PVE only content and Makeb, which is a PVE only planet, will be released soon.  PVPers have had to do the same five warzones over and over again ever since Ilum was shut down. This is finally adding something interesting to the planet. 

    Thoughts?

    It's always been like that. PvE people somehow feel entitled to all the content where as PvP is some sort of afterthought, in most games. Even a so called PvP game like GW 2 has mostly PvE content.

    The devs are creating the games though so probably the blame should be put on them.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
    Let's see for most of the time spent leveling you don't see a player from the opposing faction. If you're on a PvE server you never interact.On PvP  ( your choice incidently ) you spend half the game with your head on a swivel ganking or getting ganked. Ilum was the worst for this on the pvp servers. Now that they are returning a the original purpose of ilum to the game , people have a problem with this ? Seriously Ilum was and has always been a pvp zone , nothing has changed other then a new mechanic and reason to go to ilum has been returned. The gear btw looks like ass. They need to seriously re-evaluate the people creating the gear.

    image
  • Marcus-Marcus- Posts: 970Member Uncommon

    I do both, I PvP and PvE. I also realize there are items in (any) game i will/may never get. I will probably never get the highest of the high end game stuff from PvE, and may never get it from PvP.

    I will never understand why people who limit themselves to one playstyle feel they should be allowed all content (rewards?) in the game. You are not "forced" to do anything. There are no special snowflakes in these games. No one game caters to my exact playstyle, and none probably caters to "yours".

    Some folks who PvP role on PvE servers, they do it just so they can have PvP when they want to, under their own terms. They are no less deserving than anyone else. They know what areas to go to, and what areas to avoid when they don't feel like "it".

     

    just my opinion, and now i'm going to get my flame retardant suit, because i'm feeling a bit warm  image

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk
    Let's see for most of the time spent leveling you don't see a player from the opposing faction. If you're on a PvE server you never interact.On PvP  ( your choice incidently ) you spend half the game with your head on a swivel ganking or getting ganked. Ilum was the worst for this on the pvp servers. Now that they are returning a the original purpose of ilum to the game , people have a problem with this ? Seriously Ilum was and has always been a pvp zone , nothing has changed other then a new mechanic and reason to go to ilum has been returned. The gear btw looks like ass. They need to seriously re-evaluate the people creating the gear.

    You're giving a bad rep to the word ass because I've seen some pretty good ass in my day ;)

    Seriously, at this point I would be content with them just having the pieces drop and let us put them in any gear we want. It's obvious that they can't get a designer whose idea of Star Wars isn't a marriage of  "Very Fabulous" and  "Swamp Thing". 

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member

    I'm considered a hater so I expect to be flamed.

    I thought I would post in this thread instead of the Happy! Happy, Joy! Joy!  1.7 thread.

    Just an opinion, but SWTOR has a bit of a toxic forum population.

    "Forced PVP in a PVE game" post sentiments have led Bioware to restrict OP groups in the new Ilum to PVP servers.

    A game that was touted to have Ilum as an ongoing 24-7 OPVP planet, now reduced to 4 man groups for most people.

    You could say this is a convenient way to hide engine troubles, but they do offer OP groups on the PVP servers.

    Not to be memeriffic, but you guys will argue about anything.

    "Cross-server LFG ruins server community"

    "3rd party mods ruin community"

    "combat logs ruin community"

    "chat bubbles are immersion breaking"

    "min/maxers are cancer"

    "OP progression guilds are elitist jerks"

    "Animal mounts are stupid" (Bioware says they want to add them now.)

    "Space combat was always meant to be a mini-game." (Secret Space project exsists, paradoxal)

    "I don't know why you have problems, I get 200 FPS on fleet on my commodore 64"

    "Freeloaders should stop bitching and sub"

    "Sitting in chairs is stupid"

    "Day nite cycles are dumb. It's a moment tin time. Besides the planets all have different orbits and day lengths."

    "Weather is dumb."

    "SGR is gay"

    etc., etc. etc.

    It seems that those players which weren't scared off from SWTOR for design and performance issues, if they aren't lock in step with the forum "Vocal Majority" minority, will be driven off with torches and pitchforks.

     

     

     

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