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  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Alberel

    I know that I and many others find GW2's combat to be entirely unrewarding as very little of the game actually takes any form of coordination in groups. By killing class roles like they have they kill a lot of player identity and uniqueness... and most victories are the result of sheer numbers and not teamwork.

    Considering the waypoint zerg issues (which yes I know have been fixed to some extent in dungeons now) and the way healing has essentially been replaced with constant rezzing when someone is downed group combat quickly becomes quite mindless.

    Essentially the game gives groups a lot of flexibility in exchange for taking away a lot of what made group combat fun for many people. You don't really feel like you make much of a difference in GW2 because anyone can do what you do... even a guardian using a skill to save an ally from an attack feels redundant most of the time as the cooldown is so long that the enemy will use the attack again before you can defend again.

    When I see no clear benefit that my actions bring to a group I just start to feel like one of many identical cogs in the machine, and that isn't fun... most of my friends got bored for the same reason.

    It's great that you can still enjoy the game but the very thing you're praising here is the reason many people got bored... IMO class roles were worth the bitching. They need to fix the bitching, not homogenise classes even further.

    Factually trinity takes no coordination and teamwork at all, while GW2 combat does actually require coordiantion and teamwork (due to combo fields/no roles).

    And no roles is actually biggest advantage of GW2 over other MMOs. Its like a breath of fresh air.

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member

    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Originally posted by Alberel

     

    I know that I and many others find GW2's combat to be entirely unrewarding as very little of the game actually takes any form of coordination in groups. By killing class roles like they have they kill a lot of player identity and uniqueness... and most victories are the result of sheer numbers and not teamwork.

    Considering the waypoint zerg issues (which yes I know have been fixed to some extent in dungeons now) and the way healing has essentially been replaced with constant rezzing when someone is downed group combat quickly becomes quite mindless.

    Essentially the game gives groups a lot of flexibility in exchange for taking away a lot of what made group combat fun for many people. You don't really feel like you make much of a difference in GW2 because anyone can do what you do... even a guardian using a skill to save an ally from an attack feels redundant most of the time as the cooldown is so long that the enemy will use the attack again before you can defend again.

    When I see no clear benefit that my actions bring to a group I just start to feel like one of many identical cogs in the machine, and that isn't fun... most of my friends got bored for the same reason.

    It's great that you can still enjoy the game but the very thing you're praising here is the reason many people got bored... IMO class roles were worth the bitching. They need to fix the bitching, not homogenise classes even further.

    I think the thing that you are failing to consider, is that the flexibility for how to complete an encounter was required because there was going to be so many people who could not understand the concept of how to fight effectively within their combat system.  If a person fails too much, they quit trying.

     

    The other thing that I think fails to be observed fairly, is how the numbers have balanced out so much better now.  I go through DE's with usually around 5 - 10 people and the major events are usually about 20 - 40.  It's definately not a zerg game like when it first released.  And I wasn't kidding when I mentioned seeing people starting to work together better, even though they were in a formal qroup.

     

    And I definately was aware that the reasons I am supporting the game, are the same reasons others dislike it.  It wouldn't make a very interesting thread if there was nothing to debate.

    Yeah I recognise that these mechanics were needed in order to facilitate the adhoc way 'groups' were formed out in the world for DEs and such. I'm not really criticising it directly for that, just I personally find that kind of combat uninspiring. I never got much satisfaction from the game; no matter how much I played, whether in groups or solo, I never really felt like I was accomplishing anything special and the combat was partly the reason for that.

    Originally posted by mikahr

    Factually trinity takes no coordination and teamwork at all, while GW2 combat does actually require coordiantion and teamwork (due to combo fields/no roles).

    And no roles is actually biggest advantage of GW2 over other MMOs. Its like a breath of fresh air.

    The lack of roles doesn't beget coordination or teamwork, it actually leads to an 'every man for himself' scenario as everyone manages their own survival by dodging and self-healing. If certain support skills were on short enough cooldowns to actually be used when needed you might see some better coordination with guardians and mesmers but in reality any useful support skills have such horrendous cooldowns that they can't be relied upon, and instead it's down to the individual to support themself.

    A trinity system does require teamwork as each member of the group relies on the others to survive which is the very definition of teamwork... In GW2 the mechanics actually encourage the opposite.

    As for the combo fields; they are rarely essential except for a few gimmicky setups that abuse one particular combo (the dark field blinding for example). There are plenty of other MMOs that use combo systems in group play, FFXI and FFXIV both have them for example, and even EQ2 had one at launch (not sure if heroic opportunities are even still used now though... the game's changed a lot). Use of a combo system is unrelated to the lack of roles so any coordination it inspires in GW2 can be seen in trinity games too...

    Yes, the lack of roles is a breath of fresh air, but for many it was only because it was a novelty... that novelty wore off quite quickly for me.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alberel

    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Originally posted by Alberel

     

    I know that I and many others find GW2's combat to be entirely unrewarding as very little of the game actually takes any form of coordination in groups. By killing class roles like they have they kill a lot of player identity and uniqueness... and most victories are the result of sheer numbers and not teamwork.

    Considering the waypoint zerg issues (which yes I know have been fixed to some extent in dungeons now) and the way healing has essentially been replaced with constant rezzing when someone is downed group combat quickly becomes quite mindless.

    Essentially the game gives groups a lot of flexibility in exchange for taking away a lot of what made group combat fun for many people. You don't really feel like you make much of a difference in GW2 because anyone can do what you do... even a guardian using a skill to save an ally from an attack feels redundant most of the time as the cooldown is so long that the enemy will use the attack again before you can defend again.

    When I see no clear benefit that my actions bring to a group I just start to feel like one of many identical cogs in the machine, and that isn't fun... most of my friends got bored for the same reason.

    It's great that you can still enjoy the game but the very thing you're praising here is the reason many people got bored... IMO class roles were worth the bitching. They need to fix the bitching, not homogenise classes even further.

    I think the thing that you are failing to consider, is that the flexibility for how to complete an encounter was required because there was going to be so many people who could not understand the concept of how to fight effectively within their combat system.  If a person fails too much, they quit trying.

     

    The other thing that I think fails to be observed fairly, is how the numbers have balanced out so much better now.  I go through DE's with usually around 5 - 10 people and the major events are usually about 20 - 40.  It's definately not a zerg game like when it first released.  And I wasn't kidding when I mentioned seeing people starting to work together better, even though they were in a formal qroup.

     

    And I definately was aware that the reasons I am supporting the game, are the same reasons others dislike it.  It wouldn't make a very interesting thread if there was nothing to debate.

    Yeah I recognise that these mechanics were needed in order to facilitate the adhoc way 'groups' were formed out in the world for DEs and such. I'm not really criticising it directly for that, just I personally find that kind of combat uninspiring. I never got much satisfaction from the game; no matter how much I played, whether in groups or solo, I never really felt like I was accomplishing anything special and the combat was partly the reason for that.

    Originally posted by mikahr

    Factually trinity takes no coordination and teamwork at all, while GW2 combat does actually require coordiantion and teamwork (due to combo fields/no roles).

    And no roles is actually biggest advantage of GW2 over other MMOs. Its like a breath of fresh air.

    The lack of roles doesn't beget coordination or teamwork, it actually leads to an 'every man for himself' scenario as everyone manages their own survival by dodging and self-healing. If certain support skills were on short enough cooldowns to actually be used when needed you might see some better coordination with guardians and mesmers but in reality any useful support skills have such horrendous cooldowns that they can't be relied upon, and instead it's down to the individual to support themself.

    A trinity system does require teamwork as each member of the group relies on the others to survive which is the very definition of teamwork... In GW2 the mechanics actually encourage the opposite.

    As for the combo fields; they are rarely essential except for a few gimmicky setups that abuse one particular combo (the dark field blinding for example). There are plenty of other MMOs that use combo systems in group play, FFXI and FFXIV both have them for example, and even EQ2 had one at launch (not sure if heroic opportunities are even still used now though... the game's changed a lot). Use of a combo system is unrelated to the lack of roles so any coordination it inspires in GW2 can be seen in trinity games too...

    Yes, the lack of roles is a breath of fresh air, but for many it was only because it was a novelty... that novelty wore off quite quickly for me.

    While each member in a group trinity relies on others, the fact is each members work is the same in every encounter.

    As a healer it doesn't matter how the tank play - paldin tank ,dk tank, panda tank, warrior tank,bear tank - the healer plays exactly the same. For tanks and dps it is the same.

    Basically you have 3 classes - tank, healer and dps with different flavours.

    In GW2 each member also depends on the others to survive the encounter because your own resources aren't enough to survive the encounter -you don't have enough dodges, you don't have enough healing, you don't have neough damage, you don't have enugh CC, you don't have enough health, you don't have enough damage mitigation.

    If you didn't depend on the others you would solo the dungeons.

    Te problem of GW2 dungeons is that the bosses have too much health and not enough variation of attack patterns or the so called stages, to add a bit more variation and require different tactics during each encounter.

    And being able to complete a dungeon only by zerg rushing from the waypoint simply means your group is bad and isn't working together.

    The main difference to trinity groups is that each individual player is confronted with many more challanges during each encounter and each player will have to recognize opportunities created by other players and take them, especially in PUGs. In organize groups you can work a strategy from the get go

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • hpistihpisti BudapestPosts: 78Member

    Have to agree that the way people play the game has changed a lot in the past months.

    Dungeons, for example. I stopped running dungeons around end of October because it was all about die-rez at waypoint-have one person kite the boss while everyone runs back. Seemed strange, not a lot of fun.

    However, I've been running dungeons for the past 3 weeks, and it's a blast. People actually know what they're doing, they know the boss mechanics, signs to look for, how to rez others effectively, how to use combos.

    As for the lack of trinity making everything just a numbers game... I dunno. This is definitely not true in dungeons (especially with the new patch). I know, supposedly all dungeons can be cleared with any class combination, but having certain classes in there is a definite plus. I've even seen people post "LF guardian" messages...

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Alberel

    The lack of roles doesn't beget coordination or teamwork, it actually leads to an 'every man for himself' scenario as everyone manages their own survival by dodging and self-healing. If certain support skills were on short enough cooldowns to actually be used when needed you might see some better coordination with guardians and mesmers but in reality any useful support skills have such horrendous cooldowns that they can't be relied upon, and instead it's down to the individual to support themself.

    A trinity system does require teamwork as each member of the group relies on the others to survive which is the very definition of teamwork... In GW2 the mechanics actually encourage the opposite.

    As for the combo fields; they are rarely essential except for a few gimmicky setups that abuse one particular combo (the dark field blinding for example). There are plenty of other MMOs that use combo systems in group play, FFXI and FFXIV both have them for example, and even EQ2 had one at launch (not sure if heroic opportunities are even still used now though... the game's changed a lot). Use of a combo system is unrelated to the lack of roles so any coordination it inspires in GW2 can be seen in trinity games too...

    Yes, the lack of roles is a breath of fresh air, but for many it was only because it was a novelty... that novelty wore off quite quickly for me.

    1. The lack of roles doesnt per se, but i didnt say lack of roles i said "GW2 combat system" And your way of doing things works only to a certain level of difficulty (akin to gear progression and hugely overgearing the encounter so you dont need healing for instance so basing your evaluation on that parameters is wrong). And long CDs on support skills are there for a reason. They are not ment to be primary way of doing things but more "oh shit" buttons used sparingly.

    2. Trinity system doesnt require teamwork, you healing has nothing to do with teamwork, tank doesnt need any special coordinated team effort to get healed, you as a healer push a button and pufff...heal completely independent of tank (same for DPS and tanking). In GW2 you dont have enough resources yourself (as you have in trinty game) and have to actually coordinate your actions. In a way in GW2 resources are spread around classes and classes have to work in coordination to actually use those resources (something that is completely missing from trinity system) - for instance i have ombo field, next guy has blast finisher and we need to coordinate our actions and get the guy(s) we want to heal/buff in AOE at the same time. In trinity game every part of that is independently owned by certain class and independently used without any teamwork/coordiantion. In addition to THAT you are responsible to not die etc.

    3. Neither of those games actually required them, they were just a bonus. In GW2 its ONLY mean to pull off some things and people actually have to coordinate their CDs AND actions to pull them off. In trinity games its redundant, thats why trinity games dont have those in most cases or they are just something fluffy over your core skill system.

    4. Thats because you went in with prejudice and never actually scratched beneath the surface.

     

    Just to reinforce things, there was an outcry because of removal of rez zerging and now things "are too hard" even if there are people soloing same damn thing. And this time you cant blame it on gear, its just your skill, and people fail exactly because they play like you - every man for himself without any teamwork/coordination (as they would in trinity game).

  • muthaxmuthax mondaPosts: 593Member Uncommon

    Funny thing, after the inclusion of "dodging 15 attacks" in  daily Achievements, I seen in chat a lot of questions on the tune of "How do I dodge?!?".

    That shines a lot of light on the reasons why 'some people' didn't like GW2 combat ....

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muthax

    Funny thing, after the inclusion of "dodging 15 attacks" in  daily Achievements, I seen in chat a lot of questions on the tune of "How do I dodge?!?".

    That shines a lot of light on the reasons why 'some people' didn't like GW2 combat ....

    Indeed. I've read somewhere I don't remember, maybe it was here, a sentence that said it with very simple words.

    It was something like:

    "If you have trouble completing the "Daily Dodger" achievement, then you've been playing this game the wrong way all this time."

    Couldn't be more spot on.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • muthaxmuthax mondaPosts: 593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by muthax

    Funny thing, after the inclusion of "dodging 15 attacks" in  daily Achievements, I seen in chat a lot of questions on the tune of "How do I dodge?!?".

    That shines a lot of light on the reasons why 'some people' didn't like GW2 combat ....

    Indeed. I've read somewhere I don't remember, maybe it was here, a sentence that said it with very simple words.

    It was something like:

    "If you have trouble completing the "Daily Dodger" achievement, then you've been playing this game the wrong way all this time."

    Couldn't be more spot on.

    yeah lol...

    I know people who tried GW2 and played it like it was a wow clone (you know, static fighting, rotations,racing to 'end level') and quit because "the game sux"

    yeah right...

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    how are you forced to do dungeons? or WvW? or how are you forced to do the new guild quests they are adding? its all optional stuff to allow people to play in groups in a MMO.. Can you hit level 80 and not do a single one of those grouped things? can you get full set of exotic gear and not be forced into a group a single second?  do people even read what they write sometimes? you are seriouslly bitching about them adding more group content in an MMO? There is so much content you can complete in this game at the solo level some additional group stuff is very welcomed

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by Alberel

    The lack of roles doesn't beget coordination or teamwork, it actually leads to an 'every man for himself' scenario as everyone manages their own survival by dodging and self-healing. If certain support skills were on short enough cooldowns to actually be used when needed you might see some better coordination with guardians and mesmers but in reality any useful support skills have such horrendous cooldowns that they can't be relied upon, and instead it's down to the individual to support themself.

    A trinity system does require teamwork as each member of the group relies on the others to survive which is the very definition of teamwork... In GW2 the mechanics actually encourage the opposite.

    As for the combo fields; they are rarely essential except for a few gimmicky setups that abuse one particular combo (the dark field blinding for example). There are plenty of other MMOs that use combo systems in group play, FFXI and FFXIV both have them for example, and even EQ2 had one at launch (not sure if heroic opportunities are even still used now though... the game's changed a lot). Use of a combo system is unrelated to the lack of roles so any coordination it inspires in GW2 can be seen in trinity games too...

    Yes, the lack of roles is a breath of fresh air, but for many it was only because it was a novelty... that novelty wore off quite quickly for me.

    1. The lack of roles doesnt per se, but i didnt say lack of roles i said "GW2 combat system" And your way of doing things works only to a certain level of difficulty (akin to gear progression and hugely overgearing the encounter so you dont need healing for instance so basing your evaluation on that parameters is wrong). And long CDs on support skills are there for a reason. They are not ment to be primary way of doing things but more "oh shit" buttons used sparingly.

    2. Trinity system doesnt require teamwork, you healing has nothing to do with teamwork, tank doesnt need any special coordinated team effort to get healed, you as a healer push a button and pufff...heal completely independent of tank (same for DPS and tanking). In GW2 you dont have enough resources yourself (as you have in trinty game) and have to actually coordinate your actions. In a way in GW2 resources are spread around classes and classes have to work in coordination to actually use those resources (something that is completely missing from trinity system) - for instance i have ombo field, next guy has blast finisher and we need to coordinate our actions and get the guy(s) we want to heal/buff in AOE at the same time. In trinity game every part of that is independently owned by certain class and independently used without any teamwork/coordiantion. In addition to THAT you are responsible to not die etc.

    3. Neither of those games actually required them, they were just a bonus. In GW2 its ONLY mean to pull off some things and people actually have to coordinate their CDs AND actions to pull them off. In trinity games its redundant, thats why trinity games dont have those in most cases or they are just something fluffy over your core skill system.

    4. Thats because you went in with prejudice and never actually scratched beneath the surface.

     

    Just to reinforce things, there was an outcry because of removal of rez zerging and now things "are too hard" even if there are people soloing same damn thing. And this time you cant blame it on gear, its just your skill, and people fail exactly because they play like you - every man for himself without any teamwork/coordination (as they would in trinity game).

    1. By combat system you are referring solely to combos I assume? Because they seem to be the only thing you're using to demonstrate teamwork in which case see my answer to 2. As for support skills being used as 'oh shit' buttons... yeah that was kinda my point, you can't use them reliably, which means once you're out of dodges and your utilities are on cooldown you're screwed. Teamwork won't save you there, especially with healing effects being pathetically weak across the board and sources of protection being scarce.

    2. So here you seem to be deliberately ignoring a lot of the teamwork in a trinity game. You also seem to only have experience with the WoW-era trinity in which case the system has been heavily dumbed down. You realise the trinity originally referred to Tank/Healer/CC right? Would you mean to imply that there is no teamwork in a CC class mezzing adds whilst the tank rounds them up? There's no teamwork in a class transferring hate off the healers? There's no teamwork in a resource managing class supplying the others with enough mana to keep up the fight? You might not see this in WoW but that's because WoW's 'trinity' is pathetic...

    Think about real life. It's generally recognised that it is more efficient for people to specialise in different things and work together to cover each other's weaknesses. That is TEAMWORK. And that is exactly how the trinity functions. GW2's combo system is just a player controlled version of WoW's raid-boss dance... it's just the reverse of something seen in just about every modern trinity game. Would you like to argue that a raid in a modern trinity MMO requires no teamwork or coordination?

    3. Combos in GW2 are mostly fluff as well. There are only a select few that are actually of any use in a group and the only way to make them worthwhile is if you build your group to spam the same combo over and over. Once it becomes a case of spamming it any sense of coordination goes out the window since it becomes mindless. FYI Tera is trinity-based and also requires the same kinds of positioning that GW2's combo system requires... so it isn't unique to a non-trinity system.

    4. What the hell do you know about how I played GW2? Drop the personal attacks please, resorting to them just weakens your argument as it shows you feel threatened.

    You realise there are plenty of trinity games that are 'hard' right? I don't see your point in that last comment (other than using it as another excuse for a personal attack). What do you know of how I play? I was describing how the system itself encourages people to play. Barring the combo system GW2's combat IS every man for himself, and the combo system itself is mostly a case of mindlessly spamming the same combo over and over which doesn't require much teamwork either.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Alberel

    1. By combat system you are referring solely to combos I assume? Because they seem to be the only thing you're using to demonstrate teamwork in which case see my answer to 2. As for support skills being used as 'oh shit' buttons... yeah that was kinda my point, you can't use them reliably, which means once you're out of dodges and your utilities are on cooldown you're screwed. Teamwork won't save you there, especially with healing effects being pathetically weak across the board and sources of protection being scarce.

    2. So here you seem to be deliberately ignoring a lot of the teamwork in a trinity game. You also seem to only have experience with the WoW-era trinity in which case the system has been heavily dumbed down. You realise the trinity originally referred to Tank/Healer/CC right? Would you mean to imply that there is no teamwork in a CC class mezzing adds whilst the tank rounds them up? There's no teamwork in a class transferring hate off the healers? There's no teamwork in a resource managing class supplying the others with enough mana to keep up the fight? You might not see this in WoW but that's because WoW's 'trinity' is pathetic...

    Think about real life. It's generally recognised that it is more efficient for people to specialise in different things and work together to cover each other's weaknesses. That is TEAMWORK. And that is exactly how the trinity functions. GW2's combo system is just a player controlled version of WoW's raid-boss dance... it's just the reverse of something seen in just about every modern trinity game. Would you like to argue that a raid in a modern trinity MMO requires no teamwork or coordination?

    3. Combos in GW2 are mostly fluff as well. There are only a select few that are actually of any use in a group and the only way to make them worthwhile is if you build your group to spam the same combo over and over. Once it becomes a case of spamming it any sense of coordination goes out the window since it becomes mindless. FYI Tera is trinity-based and also requires the same kinds of positioning that GW2's combo system requires... so it isn't unique to a non-trinity system.

    4. What the hell do you know about how I played GW2? Drop the personal attacks please, resorting to them just weakens your argument as it shows you feel threatened.

    You realise there are plenty of trinity games that are 'hard' right? I don't see your point in that last comment (other than using it as another excuse for a personal attack). What do you know of how I play? I was describing how the system itself encourages people to play. Barring the combo system GW2's combat IS every man for himself, and the combo system itself is mostly a case of mindlessly spamming the same combo over and over which doesn't require much teamwork either.

    Drop the angry act. its not convincing.

    1. As far as combat system goes yes. And you just proved you dont understand it.

    2. Trinity was refered to Tank/Healer/DPS. Ever since D&D, sorry, trinity wasnt invented by >insert MMO here< And no, you went out of realm of combat mechanics and went into encounter mechanics. Thats the big error you make. Same in paragraph 2.

    3. Thats again proof of your lack of understanding. Sorry, it seems your anger got better of you.

    4. I can say because of statements you make, if you understand it you wouldnt make such claims, plain and simple.

    5. They are not hard BECAUSE of the trinity, actually TRINITY makes them much easier because its most simple system you can have, in fact they become hard when they drop trinity mechanics and use environmental mechinics for example. The only way you can make "trnity" harder is make people spam heal/taunt button faster. You again delved out of combat mechaincs and ventured into encounter mechanics.

    And "mindlessly spamming same combo over and over again" (you cant spam combos really but w/e) will get you exactly to place where you are - praising overly simplistic system that requires no teamwork and coordination over superior system you just failed to understand and adapt to and use effectively.

    Enjoy.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Alberel
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by Alberel

    The lack of roles doesn't beget coordination or teamwork, it actually leads to an 'every man for himself' scenario as everyone manages their own survival by dodging and self-healing. If certain support skills were on short enough cooldowns to actually be used when needed you might see some better coordination with guardians and mesmers but in reality any useful support skills have such horrendous cooldowns that they can't be relied upon, and instead it's down to the individual to support themself.

    A trinity system does require teamwork as each member of the group relies on the others to survive which is the very definition of teamwork... In GW2 the mechanics actually encourage the opposite.

    As for the combo fields; they are rarely essential except for a few gimmicky setups that abuse one particular combo (the dark field blinding for example). There are plenty of other MMOs that use combo systems in group play, FFXI and FFXIV both have them for example, and even EQ2 had one at launch (not sure if heroic opportunities are even still used now though... the game's changed a lot). Use of a combo system is unrelated to the lack of roles so any coordination it inspires in GW2 can be seen in trinity games too...

    Yes, the lack of roles is a breath of fresh air, but for many it was only because it was a novelty... that novelty wore off quite quickly for me.

    1. The lack of roles doesnt per se, but i didnt say lack of roles i said "GW2 combat system" And your way of doing things works only to a certain level of difficulty (akin to gear progression and hugely overgearing the encounter so you dont need healing for instance so basing your evaluation on that parameters is wrong). And long CDs on support skills are there for a reason. They are not ment to be primary way of doing things but more "oh shit" buttons used sparingly.

    2. Trinity system doesnt require teamwork, you healing has nothing to do with teamwork, tank doesnt need any special coordinated team effort to get healed, you as a healer push a button and pufff...heal completely independent of tank (same for DPS and tanking). In GW2 you dont have enough resources yourself (as you have in trinty game) and have to actually coordinate your actions. In a way in GW2 resources are spread around classes and classes have to work in coordination to actually use those resources (something that is completely missing from trinity system) - for instance i have ombo field, next guy has blast finisher and we need to coordinate our actions and get the guy(s) we want to heal/buff in AOE at the same time. In trinity game every part of that is independently owned by certain class and independently used without any teamwork/coordiantion. In addition to THAT you are responsible to not die etc.

    3. Neither of those games actually required them, they were just a bonus. In GW2 its ONLY mean to pull off some things and people actually have to coordinate their CDs AND actions to pull them off. In trinity games its redundant, thats why trinity games dont have those in most cases or they are just something fluffy over your core skill system.

    4. Thats because you went in with prejudice and never actually scratched beneath the surface.

     

    Just to reinforce things, there was an outcry because of removal of rez zerging and now things "are too hard" even if there are people soloing same damn thing. And this time you cant blame it on gear, its just your skill, and people fail exactly because they play like you - every man for himself without any teamwork/coordination (as they would in trinity game).

    1. By combat system you are referring solely to combos I assume? Because they seem to be the only thing you're using to demonstrate teamwork in which case see my answer to 2. As for support skills being used as 'oh shit' buttons... yeah that was kinda my point, you can't use them reliably, which means once you're out of dodges and your utilities are on cooldown you're screwed. Teamwork won't save you there, especially with healing effects being pathetically weak across the board and sources of protection being scarce.

    2. So here you seem to be deliberately ignoring a lot of the teamwork in a trinity game. You also seem to only have experience with the WoW-era trinity in which case the system has been heavily dumbed down. You realise the trinity originally referred to Tank/Healer/CC right? Would you mean to imply that there is no teamwork in a CC class mezzing adds whilst the tank rounds them up? There's no teamwork in a class transferring hate off the healers? There's no teamwork in a resource managing class supplying the others with enough mana to keep up the fight? You might not see this in WoW but that's because WoW's 'trinity' is pathetic...

    Think about real life. It's generally recognised that it is more efficient for people to specialise in different things and work together to cover each other's weaknesses. That is TEAMWORK. And that is exactly how the trinity functions. GW2's combo system is just a player controlled version of WoW's raid-boss dance... it's just the reverse of something seen in just about every modern trinity game. Would you like to argue that a raid in a modern trinity MMO requires no teamwork or coordination?

    3. Combos in GW2 are mostly fluff as well. There are only a select few that are actually of any use in a group and the only way to make them worthwhile is if you build your group to spam the same combo over and over. Once it becomes a case of spamming it any sense of coordination goes out the window since it becomes mindless. FYI Tera is trinity-based and also requires the same kinds of positioning that GW2's combo system requires... so it isn't unique to a non-trinity system.

    4. What the hell do you know about how I played GW2? Drop the personal attacks please, resorting to them just weakens your argument as it shows you feel threatened.

    You realise there are plenty of trinity games that are 'hard' right? I don't see your point in that last comment (other than using it as another excuse for a personal attack). What do you know of how I play? I was describing how the system itself encourages people to play. Barring the combo system GW2's combat IS every man for himself, and the combo system itself is mostly a case of mindlessly spamming the same combo over and over which doesn't require much teamwork either.

    Hard by what stretch of the imagination? As in Rift, all they did was add some goofy mechanics and then added a huge amount of HP to the boss mobs. They arent' hard you just have to know what you are doing - many of them are zerg-rez type of battles anyway. Rift was not teamwork - all you had to do was follow the lead and you were through - that is not teamwork.

     

    WOW's bosses are exactly the same as Rifts. There is no difference.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • FelixMajorFelixMajor London, ONPosts: 576Member
    Originally posted by Rider071
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by Rider071

     

    I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

     

    Ahh, so you prefer a game that is so slow paced you have time to type out a long winded speech during play.  Do they make turn based mmorpgs for people such as yourself? 

    They make MMORPGS for ppl like myself, yes.

    They make FPS for ppl like you as well.

    Try as best as you can no to confuse the 2.

    [mod edit]

     

    To the OP, I feel the same way..not to praise GW2 as the be all end all, because it isn't.  There will be pretty cool games coming out in the near future too.  You're right though, GW2 brings in a desire to play with others and not because you have to but because you want to which already creates a lighter and more positive atmosphere.

    It's a pretty postive community, only arguments I've seen have been in WvW when people get frustrated, but that is the nature of competative pvp.

    Originally posted by Arskaaa
    "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alberel

    Think about real life. It's generally recognised that it is more efficient for people to specialise in different things and work together to cover each other's weaknesses. That is TEAMWORK.

    Oh yes, think about "real life", where enemies always go for the heavy armor wearer shouting at them instead of taking out the squishy support first... err wait, that doesn't compute... indeed, think about "real life". What was your point, again? GW2's combat system is closer to "real life" than any artificial trinity system will ever be. And I'm a WoW fan too.

    1. The lack of roles doesnt per se, but i didnt say lack of roles i said "GW2 combat system" And your way of doing things works only to a certain level of difficulty (akin to gear progression and hugely overgearing the encounter so you dont need healing for instance so basing your evaluation on that parameters is wrong). And long CDs on support skills are there for a reason. They are not ment to be primary way of doing things but more "oh shit" buttons used sparingly.

    and

    3. Combos in GW2 are mostly fluff as well. There are only a select few that are actually of any use in a group and the only way to make them worthwhile is if you build your group to spam the same combo over and over. Once it becomes a case of spamming it any sense of coordination goes out the window since it becomes mindless. FYI Tera is trinity-based and also requires the same kinds of positioning that GW2's combo system requires... so it isn't unique to a non-trinity system.

    And then:

    4. What the hell do you know about how I played GW2? Drop the personal attacks please, resorting to them just weakens your argument as it shows you feel threatened.

    So you post the huge pack of ignorance that is your point 3, not to mention your point 1, where you clearly show you didn't understand GW2's combat system, and then you wonder in point 4 why some people don't take you seriously and actually question the way you've played the game? Really?

    There was no personal attack by the way... telling you that you are wrong and that you obviously only scratched the surface of the game considering your various posts here is just observation.

    I actually question what people who can't play without the crutch of a trinity system are even doing on a GW2 forum.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Alberel

    I know that I and many others find GW2's combat to be entirely unrewarding as very little of the game actually takes any form of coordination in groups. By killing class roles like they have they kill a lot of player identity and uniqueness... and most victories are the result of sheer numbers and not teamwork.

    ...

     

    They haven't killed player uniqueness at all... they've transferred it from the artificial "role" to the player itself. While it's true that all professions have varying degrees of damage, control and support capabilities to trait or select for each one does it in a unique way. In addition, with such variety amongst builds, with various weapons and skills tied to those weapons and with a nice pool of effective utility skills to choose from you find a great variety in how you can play your profession. As a mesmer, I can spec into a melee nightmare even though I'm in light armor. Or I can choose to be a ranged player with a variety of weapons, including the great sword (I still love that... great sword as a ranged weapon...), and demending on traits those various ranged weapons and builds play differently from each other. And don't get me started on clones, I luvs me some clones! I've escaped groups of four, five people through use of the confusion I can cause with clones and invisibilities while still killing the yak they were escorting in WvW. It makes me giggle. image

     

    Your unique identity is no longer tied to a role. You're not tank, healer or dps. You're mesmer, necromancer, elementalist, warrior, thief, guardian, engineer or ranger, doing what you do the way you choose to do it.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • FelixMajorFelixMajor London, ONPosts: 576Member

    Your unique identity is no longer tied to a role. You're not tank, healer or dps. You're mesmer, necromancer, elementalist, warrior, thief, guardian, engineer or ranger, doing what you do the way you choose to do it.

    Exactly!

    Originally posted by Arskaaa
    "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    how are you forced to do dungeons? or WvW? or how are you forced to do the new guild quests they are adding? its all optional stuff to allow people to play in groups in a MMO.. Can you hit level 80 and not do a single one of those grouped things? can you get full set of exotic gear and not be forced into a group a single second?  do people even read what they write sometimes? you are seriouslly bitching about them adding more group content in an MMO? There is so much content you can complete in this game at the solo level some additional group stuff is very welcomed

    Hate to jump into the argument midway, but seems I am already doing it.

    I keep seeing you use this point, Aer, but there are many games that don't force you to do things you don't want.  Take SWTOR for example.  I am not forced to do any Flashpoints, PVP or raids.  I can level all the way to 50 without doing any.  I can even skip the main storyline and simply do side quests, or reverse. 

    So I fail to see how you can use this for GW2 as if it is some sort of unique aspect to the gameplay.

     

    OP - I liked your post.  I have to admit, I have not seen any comments like "noob" etc in-game in turns of my playstyle.  And if the mechanics are themselves pushing people to work together, that should be commended.  However, if this is true, I wonder how long it will last.  MMOs were a niche over a decade ago and it would be much more common to find others working together in communities back then...it wasn't until they became more mainstream and those type of players joined the space that we began to see this behavior as more common.

    If what you say is true, I can only think it will be a matter of time before that mentality becomes more common in this game as well.

  • paulythebpaulytheb Wauwatosa, WIPosts: 261Member Uncommon

    I don't care for GW2 combat.

    Am I wrong for feeling that way?

    ( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

    An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by paulytheb

    I don't care for GW2 combat.

    Am I wrong for feeling that way?

    Yes. Yes you are. You must repent.

     

    But seriously, no... it won't be and isn't for everyone. A lot of people like the defined roles, knowing exactly where they fit in and maximizing that aspect as best as they can. I loved topping Recount on my hunter in WoW, or being the main raid tank. It's ultimately about personal preference. It doesn't make one style of combat better or worse than another, it only makes one style of combat more enjoyable for someone than another. 

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimal

    Hate to jump into the argument midway, but seems I am already doing it.

    I keep seeing you use this point, Aer, but there are many games that don't force you to do things you don't want.  Take SWTOR for example.  I am not forced to do any Flashpoints, PVP or raids.  I can level all the way to 50 without doing any.  I can even skip the main storyline and simply do side quests, or reverse. 

    So I fail to see how you can use this for GW2 as if it is some sort of unique aspect to the gameplay.

     

    OP - I liked your post.  I have to admit, I have not seen any comments like "noob" etc in-game in turns of my playstyle.  And if the mechanics are themselves pushing people to work together, that should be commended.  However, if this is true, I wonder how long it will last.  MMOs were a niche over a decade ago and it would be much more common to find others working together in communities back then...it wasn't until they became more mainstream and those type of players joined the space that we began to see this behavior as more common.

    If what you say is true, I can only think it will be a matter of time before that mentality becomes more common in this game as well.

    Can you get  max stats without raiding in SWTOR?

    I can get max stats in GW2 by doing whatever I want.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by paulytheb

    I don't care for GW2 combat.

    Am I wrong for feeling that way?

    Of course not.

    But you would be wrong if you said "GW2 combat sucks because it doesnt require teamwork and coordination and trinity does"

    Liking/sdisliking is personal preference. Its another matter when you cross a line and start talking about objective and (in a way measurable) things and be completely upside down about it.

  • PaRoXiTiCPaRoXiTiC Denison, TXPosts: 576Member Uncommon

    I just have a quick question.

    Do you guys seriously go through and check each others previous posts? Lets get real here. Do some pushups or something instead of checking peoples previous posts.

  • paulythebpaulytheb Wauwatosa, WIPosts: 261Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by paulytheb

    I don't care for GW2 combat.

    Am I wrong for feeling that way?

    Of course not.

    But you would be wrong if you said "GW2 combat sucks because it doesnt require teamwork and coordination and trinity does"

    Liking/sdisliking is personal preference. Its another matter when you cross a line and start talking about objective and (in a way measurable) things and be completely upside down about it.

    *********************************************************************

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes. Yes you are. You must repent.

    But seriously, no... it won't be and isn't for everyone. A lot of people like the defined roles, knowing exactly where they fit in and maximizing that aspect as best as they can. I loved topping Recount on my hunter in WoW, or being the main raid tank. It's ultimately about personal preference. It doesn't make one style of combat better or worse than another, it only makes one style of combat more enjoyable for someone than another.

     

    HAHA! Repent!

    Fair enough guys. I try not to bash to much and offer my opinions more. But we all have our days.

    GW2 is not a bad game it is just not the game for me. I grew bored of it quickly.

    Fortunately, as I have said before, it was a gift and is just a game. So no love lost really.

    ( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

    An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by paulytheb
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by paulytheb

    I don't care for GW2 combat.

    Am I wrong for feeling that way?

    Of course not.

    But you would be wrong if you said "GW2 combat sucks because it doesnt require teamwork and coordination and trinity does"

    Liking/sdisliking is personal preference. Its another matter when you cross a line and start talking about objective and (in a way measurable) things and be completely upside down about it.

    *********************************************************************

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Yes. Yes you are. You must repent.

    But seriously, no... it won't be and isn't for everyone. A lot of people like the defined roles, knowing exactly where they fit in and maximizing that aspect as best as they can. I loved topping Recount on my hunter in WoW, or being the main raid tank. It's ultimately about personal preference. It doesn't make one style of combat better or worse than another, it only makes one style of combat more enjoyable for someone than another.

     

    HAHA! Repent!

    Fair enough guys. I try not to bash to much and offer my opinions more. But we all have our days.

    GW2 is not a bad game it is just not the game for me. I grew bored of it quickly.

    Fortunately, as I have said before, it was a gift and is just a game. So no love lost really.

    The nice part is that with no sub fee you can always pop in and see if recent changes may be to your liking without any obligations to stick around if they're not.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon
    I'm rooting for for GW2. I hope that this portion of the mmorpg community has a game they can play for years to come, a game for them that never sees an equal.  
This discussion has been closed.