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The formation of a megathread: "Are the Servers dying again?"

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  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Thing is though that games kept improving,  each new game was bigger and better than the last, unlike SWTOR which has many features missing from a lot of MMOs, and is basically a step backwards.

    Racing games have progressed loads. Sega Rally on the Saturn only had very few tracks, and people just kept playing it to improve their scores, then they add in more realistic graphics, crashes, more courses, online mode, helpful racelines, rewind option, open world etc

    Usually each new game has what the last had, plus more.

    Mario 64 was a proper advancement on the 2D Mario games, but now they seem to have gone backwards with the Wii U mario game too, which is like the 2D Mario games again.

    For MMOs it matters as it is heads up for whether it will shut down or not. You did not have worry about Megaman shuttig down, and you can still play it today if you want to. If you didn't like it you could resell it, which you can not with SWTOR once used, you are stuck with it. Also games like that did not keep getting updated or changed, so you knew that what you get will be what it is forever. SWTOR may get stuff added that will make me want to keep subbing to the game. There is always hope until the game shuts down.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Thing is though that games kept improving,  each new game was bigger and better than the last, unlike SWTOR which has many features missing from a lot of MMOs, and is basically a step backwards.

    Racing games have progressed loads. Sega Rally on the Saturn only had very few tracks, and people just kept playing it to improve their scores, then they add in more realistic graphics, crashes, more courses, online more, helpful racelines, rewind option, open world etc

    Usually each new game has what the last had, plus more.

    Mario 64 was a proper advancement on the 2D Mario games, but now they seem to have gone backwards with the Wii U mario game too, which is like the 2D Mario games again.

    For MMOs it matters as it is heads up for whether it will shut down or not. You did not have worry about Megaman shuttig down, and you can still play it today if you want to. If you didn't like it you could resell it, which you can not with SWTOR once used, you are stuck with it. Also games like that did not keep getting updated or changed, so you knew that what you get will be what it is forever. SWTOR may get stuff added that will make me want to keep subbing to the game. There is always hope until the game shuts down.

     But that is nature of MMOS isn't it? ultimately they are going to shut down. I think all players who play MMO are aware of the fact. Nothing lasts forever but that doesn't mean one stops enjoying the game worrying about the future. Earth and Beyond lasted not even a year before EA shut it down and i had so much fun in that game. Even though i wish it lasted for more years but i had tons of fun in that game, no regrets. Maybe i just don't get so emotinaly attached to MMOS and can just walk away easily whenever i want.

    Ofcourse you can sell Megaman it is vintage and stuff like this will always fetch you nice price. I don't even know why would anyone want to resell MMOS or SWTOR for that matter say 10 year from now. Two very different type of genre in comparison here.

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  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Thing is though that games kept improving,  each new game was bigger and better than the last, unlike SWTOR which has many features missing from a lot of MMOs, and is basically a step backwards.

    Racing games have progressed loads. Sega Rally on the Saturn only had very few tracks, and people just kept playing it to improve their scores, then they add in more realistic graphics, crashes, more courses, online more, helpful racelines, rewind option, open world etc

    Usually each new game has what the last had, plus more.

    Mario 64 was a proper advancement on the 2D Mario games, but now they seem to have gone backwards with the Wii U mario game too, which is like the 2D Mario games again.

    For MMOs it matters as it is heads up for whether it will shut down or not. You did not have worry about Megaman shuttig down, and you can still play it today if you want to. If you didn't like it you could resell it, which you can not with SWTOR once used, you are stuck with it. Also games like that did not keep getting updated or changed, so you knew that what you get will be what it is forever. SWTOR may get stuff added that will make me want to keep subbing to the game. There is always hope until the game shuts down.

     But that is nature of MMOS isn't it? ultimately they are going to shut down. I think all players who play MMO are aware of the fact. Nothing lasts forever but that doesn't mean one stops enjoying the game worrying about the future. Earth and Beyond lasted not even a year before EA shut it down and i had so much fun in that game. Even though i wish it lasted for more years but i had tons of fun in that game, no regrets. Maybe i just don't get so emotinaly attached to MMOS and can just walk away easily whenever i want.

    Ofcourse you can sell Megaman it is vintage and stuff like this will always fetch you nice price. I don't even know why would anyone want to resell MMOS or SWTOR for that matter say 10 year from now. Two very different type of genre in comparison here.

    True, but there are plenty of other games out there to give as much fun, and MMOs that are doing well like WOW or ones only just released are least likely to shut down within a year, although TOR also needs $7.5 million per month in subs and CM sales, so increases the likelihood, any other MMO would be happy to have the populations of SWTOR and if TSW or Tera had as many it probably would not have gone F2P/B2P for a very long time. City of heroes went F2P in 2011 and shut down 2012. Just when I was getting a new character going, they announced its shut down 1 month later, and did not get very far with the new content, and had I known it was closing that soon I would not have bothered and put my time to something else, plus it caused a stir and the Korean times were puzzled why it was closing.

    As for the selling that was mainly on the basis if you do not like a game, not selling it 10 years from now. It would be good if you had 7 days or even 24 hours to unapply a code. As you can not and can not sell, you have to make do with your purchase even if you do not like it, just to make the purchase worthwhile.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    The main problem with SWTOR right now is that the only real place is shines in compared to other games is its Flashpoints for the interactive story. Thats it, when your journey outside of that their big aspects just cant stack. TSW beats SWTOR in story, Alot of games beat it in PVP, WoW Beats it in its gameplay(well not beats however there isnt really a difference). People HATE the Space combat, and the list can continue.  

     

    SWTOR's best idea in keeping the game alive is to do everything within their power to not get players to TRY other games. Thats where they get hurt. The game is like a jack of all trades - It can do alot of things, however its not the best at anything. The game is solid however loses out as soon as its compared to others.

    Because i can.
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    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Doogiehowse

     But that is nature of MMOS isn't it? ultimately they are going to shut down. I think all players who play MMO are aware of the fact. Nothing lasts forever but that doesn't mean one stops enjoying the game worrying about the future. Earth and Beyond lasted not even a year before EA shut it down and i had so much fun in that game. Even though i wish it lasted for more years but i had tons of fun in that game, no regrets. Maybe i just don't get so emotinaly attached to MMOS and can just walk away easily whenever i want.

    Ofcourse you can sell Megaman it is vintage and stuff like this will always fetch you nice price. I don't even know why would anyone want to resell MMOS or SWTOR for that matter say 10 year from now. Two very different type of genre in comparison here.

    I don't know why anyone would want to buy an old game like megaman either since you can play it for free with an emulator. 

    Your first paragrpah is so true and is one of the biggest reasons many of us disagree with each other here. Many posters like get really wrapped up in MMOs. They are like second lives and get really emotionally attached to the characters they create. They watch population levels and quarter returns religously.Gaming is more of a cause than simple entertainment. When their MMO of choice shuts down, they react as if there was just a death in the family.

    Whereas other posters  know the game will shut down at some point it's only a question of when. They enjoy the games for what they are and don't lose any sleep over population levels. They don't have a check list of features for that perfect game and don't use it as a litmus test for judging others. If their favorite game shuts down the attitude is, "Oh well. That was fun. Next."

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Judging by how many topics like this are made, some people like complaining and picking apart numbers that have no meaning to them more than playing games it seems. Dunno though, I guess it can count as a hobby.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Judging by how many topics like this are made, some people like complaining and picking apart numbers that have no meaning to them more than playing games it seems. Dunno though, I guess it can count as a hobby.

    You are to a certain extent correct. Call it a hobby. It's intresting in the context of comparing the SWTOR Freemium system to the supposed paradign shift in MMO payment models.

    As I've stated, I think it's just a melting off of a good chunk of FTP players. An easy fix for Bioware is to just reset the population reporting caps on the individual servers.

    As I said, they are just FTPers. No one would really notice them gone, it's only evident between ToRstatus (which could be fixed by adjusting the pop caps) and to a lesser extent the 3rd party site.

    The game relies on the sub based players, ehich there is no way of determing number, but likely not much affected.

  • NC-JohnNC-John burlington, WIPosts: 113Member
    II's alive damit, ALIVE! :P

    "Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Judging by how many topics like this are made, some people like complaining and picking apart numbers that have no meaning to them more than playing games it seems. Dunno though, I guess it can count as a hobby.

    I could only imagine what gaming would have been like in the 80s had internet forums existed then. You'd have had Atari fans fighting with Coleco vision fans who would have lost their favorite platforms and then started hating on the NES because of it's dominance. That and cries of "Pac-Man clone" by posters who hate on every game that isn't Pong. 

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Judging by how many topics like this are made, some people like complaining and picking apart numbers that have no meaning to them more than playing games it seems. Dunno though, I guess it can count as a hobby.

    I could only imagine what gaming would have been like in the 80s had internet forums existed then. You'd have had Atari fans fighting with Coleco vision fans who would have lost their favorite platforms and then started hating on the NES because of it's dominance. That and cries of "Pac-Man clone" by posters who hate on every game that isn't Pong. 

    You just posted your minimum age, if you didn't know that stuff had existed already! :D

     

    If you said 70's well that would led to a whole lot of speculation .. but saying it wasn't available in the 80's pinponts it down :P  Because there was plenty of smack going down in the 80's, "online".

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthPosts: 2,646Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    City of heroes went F2P in 2011 and shut down 2012. Just when I was getting a new character going, they announced its shut down 1 month later, and did not get very far with the new content, and had I known it was closing that soon I would not have bothered and put my time to something else, plus it caused a stir and the Korean times were puzzled why it was closing.

     

    Because the developers from Paragon Studios itself have confirmed that they game was making more money since the F2P conversion, and the game wasn't losing money according to them - hence NCSoft's "realignment of company focus" instead of saying anything regarding its profitability, and why the Korean Times questioned their decision in shutting down a game that was still providing a profit for them.

    The closest thing I've seen when it comes to what reason they had for what they did is that they don't want too many titles to support, and only want the very best to represent their name - which seems weak at best, seeing how most other companies want as many succesful titles on their portfolio as possible.

    Ah well, lesson learned - stay away from NCSoft as they are willing to shut down the game the moment they decide it no longer "fits" in their company lineup.

    And I agree with you that its in SWTOR's best interest to make work of their updates and to get new content in game ASAP.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthPosts: 2,646Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    As I said, they are just FTPers. No one would really notice them gone, it's only evident between ToRstatus (which could be fixed by adjusting the pop caps) and to a lesser extent the 3rd party site.

     

    Revenue wise that's true, but the FTP crowd does add to the activity level of a game, giving subscribers more people to team with, to chat with, etc... which in turn helps them to not get bored so that they stay subbed.

     

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  • LoverNoFighterLoverNoFighter Star CItyPosts: 294Member
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

    SWTOR is a failure. Just face the truth already.

    Should just have made SWG 2 instead. SWG pre cu style with content from CU / NGE.

    According to your signature that holds true for every MMO that isn't "SWG pre CU". ;)

     Well it's a fact that no other MMO has ever been close to SWG pre cu's potential. ;-)

     

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,043Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

    SWTOR is a failure. Just face the truth already.

    Should just have made SWG 2 instead. SWG pre cu style with content from CU / NGE.

    According to your signature that holds true for every MMO that isn't "SWG pre CU". ;)

     Well it's a fact that no other MMO has ever been close to SWG pre cu's potential. ;-)

     

    how many players in pre CU? 300-400k, right?

    thats a pretty solid number,,but not for a AAA mmo,,and its still very far from the top dog

    so the real life numbers prove that you are in a minority

    and building a mmo for minorities will get you another niche game

    thats what both SW mmos are,,,niche games

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,043Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by Eletheryl
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    It bears mentionong that Terra has garnered a lot of interest since its far less restrictive Free To Play. That would explain a lot of SWTOR's FTP population migrating to a different game. (The trend can be seen at a third party website.)

    The people playing games like swtor is not the same people who love to play korean games like Tera, you are talking about the AION players, the other F2P Korean MMO. 

    By no means am I the Wizzard of Oz, but Path of Exile and Terra's poopuations (both FTP) appear to have grown rapidly in the last month. Aion appears to be stable. D3 (BTP) and SWTOR (Freemium) appear to have experienced a decline in population.

    I was speculating on SWTOR's decline being attributable to other games as opposed to just attrition. Both Terra and Path of Exile have laxer FTP systems.

    I think that you underestimate the FTP playerbases' ability to skip from genre to genre.

    This is of course all speculation, (based on a some data). I'm sure someone will point this out.

    yep,,most F2Pers arent picky

    they just want a fast thrill,,for free of course

    and if the game doesnt deliver, theyre just as fast in droppping it, and finding a replacement

    look at the number of F2P mmos,,they wont have a hard time finding a new candidate

    and still they keep coming,,TESO looks like a possible F2P candidate

    i never played skyrim,,in a couple of years i can prolly play it for free,,and online

    its just a matter of patience

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,084Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    City of heroes went F2P in 2011 and shut down 2012. Just when I was getting a new character going, they announced its shut down 1 month later, and did not get very far with the new content, and had I known it was closing that soon I would not have bothered and put my time to something else, plus it caused a stir and the Korean times were puzzled why it was closing.

     

    Because the developers from Paragon Studios itself have confirmed that they game was making more money since the F2P conversion, and the game wasn't losing money according to them - hence NCSoft's "realignment of company focus" instead of saying anything regarding its profitability, and why the Korean Times questioned their decision in shutting down a game that was still providing a profit for them.

    The closest thing I've seen when it comes to what reason they had for what they did is that they don't want too many titles to support, and only want the very best to represent their name - which seems weak at best, seeing how most other companies want as many succesful titles on their portfolio as possible.

    Ah well, lesson learned - stay away from NCSoft as they are willing to shut down the game the moment they decide it no longer "fits" in their company lineup.

    And I agree with you that its in SWTOR's best interest to make work of their updates and to get new content in game ASAP.

    This encapsulates the issue with F2P conversions. COH making more money (apparently) right after it went F2P and then closing 1 year later because it was no longer making money. And if you search on other games that went F2P you will also find statements about "more revenue" "more players" etc. shortly after the game went F2P.

    And then no more statements until months have passed and the next words are on the lines of: design teams are being reduced, game closed etc.

    The reason is pretty obvious - as others have said many try the game, maybe make a one-off payment a short time after joining and then move on.  And Zynga numbers the problems are: churn is huge, revenue comes from just a few players, marketing costs to bring in new players can be huge, new games are needed to satisfy the core.

    Clearly EA are not going to spend huge amounts on advertising so F2P players can be expected to drift off over time to something new. Leaving people who pay a sub wondering what they are paying the sub for.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

    SWTOR is a failure. Just face the truth already.

    Should just have made SWG 2 instead. SWG pre cu style with content from CU / NGE.

    According to your signature that holds true for every MMO that isn't "SWG pre CU". ;)

     Well it's a fact that no other MMO has ever been close to SWG pre cu's potential. ;-)

     

    how many players in pre CU? 300-400k, right?

    thats a pretty solid number,,but not for a AAA mmo,,and its still very far from the top dog

    so the real life numbers prove that you are in a minority

    and building a mmo for minorities will get you another niche game

    thats what both SW mmos are,,,niche games

    That was a solid figure for a AAA mmo at the time, but then WOW happened.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,297Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

    SWTOR is a failure. Just face the truth already.

    Should just have made SWG 2 instead. SWG pre cu style with content from CU / NGE.

    According to your signature that holds true for every MMO that isn't "SWG pre CU". ;)

     Well it's a fact that no other MMO has ever been close to SWG pre cu's potential. ;-)

     

    how many players in pre CU? 300-400k, right?

    thats a pretty solid number,,but not for a AAA mmo,,and its still very far from the top dog

    so the real life numbers prove that you are in a minority

    and building a mmo for minorities will get you another niche game

    thats what both SW mmos are,,,niche games

    That was a solid figure for a AAA mmo at the time, but then WOW happened.

    Eve online is a AAA mmo, and only has 350k - 400k active subs, too many games developers are seeing WoW's figures and hoping for a piece of the 'pie'. And thats probably why so many games fail hard, they should be looking for 500k and growing slowly, too many times we're seeing flash in the pan games release and then have the numbers playing disolve over a period of just a few months, this even happened in GW2, which is still considered to be relatively successful.image

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthPosts: 2,646Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

    SWTOR is a failure. Just face the truth already.

    Should just have made SWG 2 instead. SWG pre cu style with content from CU / NGE.

    According to your signature that holds true for every MMO that isn't "SWG pre CU". ;)

     Well it's a fact that no other MMO has ever been close to SWG pre cu's potential. ;-)

     

    how many players in pre CU? 300-400k, right?

    thats a pretty solid number,,but not for a AAA mmo,,and its still very far from the top dog

    so the real life numbers prove that you are in a minority

    and building a mmo for minorities will get you another niche game

    thats what both SW mmos are,,,niche games

    That was a solid figure for a AAA mmo at the time, but then WOW happened.

    Eve online is a AAA mmo, and only has 350k - 400k active subs, too many games developers are seeing WoW's figures and hoping for a piece of the 'pie'. And thats probably why so many games fail hard, they should be looking for 500k and growing slowly, too many times we're seeing flash in the pan games release and then have the numbers playing disolve over a period of just a few months, this even happened in GW2, which is still considered to be relatively successful.image

    Yep, fairly sure even DAoC, UO and other big names were around that number back during their day.

    The pool of players to draw from was also much smaller, WoW turned MMO's mainstream - whether you find that a good thing or not.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Judging by how many topics like this are made, some people like complaining and picking apart numbers that have no meaning to them more than playing games it seems. Dunno though, I guess it can count as a hobby.

    I could only imagine what gaming would have been like in the 80s had internet forums existed then. You'd have had Atari fans fighting with Coleco vision fans who would have lost their favorite platforms and then started hating on the NES because of it's dominance. That and cries of "Pac-Man clone" by posters who hate on every game that isn't Pong. 

    You just posted your minimum age, if you didn't know that stuff had existed already! :D

     

    If you said 70's well that would led to a whole lot of speculation .. but saying it wasn't available in the 80's pinponts it down :P  Because there was plenty of smack going down in the 80's, "online".

    The only way you could have been smack talking online in the 80s is if you worked for a research or educational organization. ISPs didn't emerge until the late 80s and the commercialization of the internet didn't happen until 1995. Nice try though. 

    By the way I'm in my late 30s so I remember the 80s quite well. 

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Funny to me.  When we played games in the 80s.  We never sat around and asked "Is Megaman still selling?  I see that its Toys R Us volumes have been low"

    I guess it was because we were having too much fun playing to care.  If I didnt like a game I sold it or threw it away.  Played something else.

    Funny how things change....

    Judging by how many topics like this are made, some people like complaining and picking apart numbers that have no meaning to them more than playing games it seems. Dunno though, I guess it can count as a hobby.

    I could only imagine what gaming would have been like in the 80s had internet forums existed then. You'd have had Atari fans fighting with Coleco vision fans who would have lost their favorite platforms and then started hating on the NES because of it's dominance. That and cries of "Pac-Man clone" by posters who hate on every game that isn't Pong. 

    You just posted your minimum age, if you didn't know that stuff had existed already! :D

     

    If you said 70's well that would led to a whole lot of speculation .. but saying it wasn't available in the 80's pinponts it down :P  Because there was plenty of smack going down in the 80's, "online".

    The only way you could have been smack talking online in the 80s is if you worked for a research or educational organization. ISPs didn't emerge until the late 80s and the commercialization of the internet didn't happen until 1995. Nice try though. 

    By the way I'm in my late 30s so I remember the 80s quite well. 

    Dialup services, Compuserve, hundreds of hobby BBS's (soon to be 10's of thousans before the popularity of the modern internet in the early 90's) .. professionally run BBS's... Prodigy was in there too, late 80's - early 90's.

     

    Talkers, complainers, enthusiasists, fans, haters .. for every product there were followers.

     

    Carry on.

     

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,043Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by LoverNoFighter

    SWTOR is a failure. Just face the truth already.

    Should just have made SWG 2 instead. SWG pre cu style with content from CU / NGE.

    According to your signature that holds true for every MMO that isn't "SWG pre CU". ;)

     Well it's a fact that no other MMO has ever been close to SWG pre cu's potential. ;-)

     

    how many players in pre CU? 300-400k, right?

    thats a pretty solid number,,but not for a AAA mmo,,and its still very far from the top dog

    so the real life numbers prove that you are in a minority

    and building a mmo for minorities will get you another niche game

    thats what both SW mmos are,,,niche games

    That was a solid figure for a AAA mmo at the time, but then WOW happened.

    Eve online is a AAA mmo, and only has 350k - 400k active subs, too many games developers are seeing WoW's figures and hoping for a piece of the 'pie'. And thats probably why so many games fail hard, they should be looking for 500k and growing slowly, too many times we're seeing flash in the pan games release and then have the numbers playing disolve over a period of just a few months, this even happened in GW2, which is still considered to be relatively successful.image

    yup, they all want to beat rocky, and be the champ, but they dont want to live in training camp for years

    to prepare themselves

    yes EVE is a AAA mmo, but íts also a HARDCORE mmo, so they can only support a company with about

    70 employees,,no where near the budget of swtor

     

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,084Member Uncommon

    UO was solid with around 450k and EQ1 was the big player with a peak of 600-650k - doubtless a key reason why SoE got to develop SWG.

    By the standards of the day SWG was a success. For whatever reason - and the IP cost is the likely culprit - the number of subs was deemed inadequate. It was after 1M and only managed "half" before starting to decline. Xpacs were taking longer and this probably didn't help keep subs up. Churn will probably have started to hurt. 

    Back when EQ1 had its ..... 7th anniversary I think it was ..... SoE released some data about churn - the average subscription period being around 7 months. (EQ! had xpacs c. every 6 months - no content updates back then). 

    DAoC and Eve provide a stark contrast:

     

    DAoC chased EQ1's concept of releasing xpacs to increase subs and whilst this helped it maintain a 200-250k peak for 12 months the xpacs are possibly a reason it lost some of its core players - the nature of the game changed. Chasing the market leader - rather than its own uniqueness - hastened its demise. Eve pursued its own vision and has grown.

    Bottonline for me: the game being developed has to "live within its means" - live being what it costs to develop and run, means being the likely revenue - which in turn is driven by the business model. And there were numerous examples EA could have followed that might have helped SWTOR.

     

    Rift has done OK, never set out to gain mega status just a bottom feeder getting a small percentage of WoW's population. I it took off great but if not it should cover its costs. Opted for a "low" sub cost from day 1 and then used promotions heavily. Remember the discussions about was SWTOR worth $15 a month? It really is all about what people will pay and getting enough revenue in. Rift should have done OK by now, covered its costs. Question: was SWTOR's sub to high?

    NCSoft opted to make GW2 B2P - it worked for GW1 and it has worked for GW2 (excellent results posted by NCSoft recently). If only they had left the sub model alone for CoH and been content with the - reportedly - small profit it was making. Question: should SWTOR have had a sub at all?

    Darkfall - a success, costs were - had to be - tightly controlled. A throwback in many ways. A lot in common with Eve. Charges a sub, only available to buy online. Question: could SWTOR have been 100% download only?

    And as for games released before they were finished ...

    Costs clearly got out of hand on SWTOR and then EA chased $$$; unlimited sales (understandable), high sub, released to early. Sad.

     

     

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by simplius

    yup, they all want to beat rocky, and be the champ, but they dont want to live in training camp for years

    to prepare themselves

    yes EVE is a AAA mmo, but íts also a HARDCORE mmo, so they can only support a company with about

    70 employees,,no where near the budget of swtor

     

    They all forget how EvE started. Definately NOT as AAA MMO.

    Originally posted by gervaise1

    Costs clearly got out of hand on SWTOR and then EA chased $$$; unlimited sales (understandable), high sub, released to early. Sad.

    BW wanted it long term. EA wanted it short term. Its pretty obvious.
  • EletherylEletheryl morenoPosts: 152Member
    Dont know why people keep talking about the fail of swtor, sure, from a hater point of view it is but in the real world is far far far away from that. Is still the P2P MMO with more subs but WoW, and financially the Cartel Market was a huge success, the population is stable and will grow once again with the expansion and the 1.7 update. People was talking about the Death of swtor for a year, never happened. 
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