Originally posted by ShakyMo Well yeah I would say daoc wins in that regard too. Give me realm wide raids and open dungeons over space bar pressing and glorified lobby game of sitting in a city queueing to go an instance any day.
DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.
You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Well yeah I would say daoc wins in that regard too. Give me realm wide raids and open dungeons over space bar pressing and glorified lobby game of sitting in a city queueing to go an instance any day.
DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.
You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.
TESO has nothing now. Game isn't out, can't be played.
You see the problem is, if someone says
"There is not enough content"
the reply is
"You have no idea the game isn't out"
but if you say
"DAOC had 41 dungeons and was huge so TESo will too"
it is justified to have that opinion!
Hypocrites.
My point has never been about content, always about the restrictions put in place to prevent exploring the world of Tamriel with a character (not 3 characters but with 1 character).
You won't get to see 1/3rd of the game. You will get to see 1/2 the game with each faction, since the central area is shared and is as big as each of the individual realms.
Zenimax are obviously focusing on the end game region primarily being PvP centric. This in itself combats the content locust effect, as PvP has far more staying power than PvE ever will.
I don't know how replayable TESO will be after the PVE cap. That certainly was never an issue for me in DAoC where the RvR was everything for me and PVE was something I did on rare occasions or in the PVP dungeon.
I'm not much of a raider any longer in any game simply because of the inordinate amount of wasted time spent getting 20 people together in one place to begin with and all the waiting around for the DC'd tank to come back or all the pizza deliveries or 20X bathroom breaks... so quantity of raid content just doesn't really matter to me.
I'll continue to log in if the RvR has enough to it for each campaign to be different enough to be fun--if not, I won't. It's that simple.
Give me content that is well-designed enough to be repeatable many times instead of additional content (which, btw is ususally just the same old shit in new clothes) any time.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by ShakyMo Well yeah I would say daoc wins in that regard too. Give me realm wide raids and open dungeons over space bar pressing and glorified lobby game of sitting in a city queueing to go an instance any day.
DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.
You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.
Indeed, DAOC in launch state was an empty world. Most of the dungeons had no monsters at launch. And those that did have monsters had no loot. And the PvP at launch *snicker*. And then the population imbalances....
I really don't get the worship of DAOC as being a 'great pvp game'. Shadowbane, as buggy as it was, was more engaging (and it had server problems too, with one guild taking over a server...).
Basically, PvP and MMO has never mixed well (outside of arenas and team based pvp zones). Once it gets near 'open', it all falls down.
As a PvE player, and crafter, I had a blast in DAOC, playing RvR for fun but not as my main activity. There was definitely enough area to level several toons to 50, in one faction area. I also really enjoyed PvE in the PvP zones, because of the extra danger.
If TESO is anything like DAOC in size, it will be fine. The key to replayability is having different classes, that really play differently. My first 50 was a minstrel, the 2nd was a Cabalist. Even the Cabalist had three different paths to follow, with different abilities and play strategies. I went Spirit Cabalist.
Trials of Atlantis broke DAOC for me, I didn't really enjoy the whole "raid for 8 hours to get a trinket" kind of play. The best items should be crafter/player made, and not from drops.
If TESO has:
- 3 large areas, each at least as large as Skyrim, and
- multiple interesting and different classes, and
- focus on gathering and crafting, instead of massive raid drops
They aren't massively multiplayer. They are instanced and could be in a lobby game rather than a mmo They encourage stupid 1vs1 balance which can NEVER be accomplished. They are a lie of "esports in a mmo" which is impossible, sold to suckas by blizzard and arenanet
Mmos can never be balanced and fair. Better to embrace their inherant unfairness than go around pretending they're fucking quake.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Arenas are THE WORST fit of pvp in a mmo.
They aren't massively multiplayer. They are instanced and could be in a lobby game rather than a mmo They encourage stupid 1vs1 balance which can NEVER be accomplished. They are a lie of "esports in a mmo" which is impossible, sold to suckas by blizzard and arenanet
Mmos can never be balanced and fair. Better to embrace their inherant unfairness than go around pretending they're fucking quake.
Couldn't agree more...hate those lobby, FPS-like aberrations in MMOs with a passion.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Axxar I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.
... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...
... I don't think so...
That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.
I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Axxar I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.
... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...
... I don't think so...
That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.
I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.
That was fun! I remember being a stealther in DF, and when it switched hands, you could watch the enemies run by you, as you stay invisible. Then try to ambush single or careless players.
Probably the biggest incentive to owning DF was the great PvE farming for cash. Hinges if I remember correctly.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Arenas are THE WORST fit of pvp in a mmo.
They aren't massively multiplayer. They are instanced and could be in a lobby game rather than a mmo They encourage stupid 1vs1 balance which can NEVER be accomplished. They are a lie of "esports in a mmo" which is impossible, sold to suckas by blizzard and arenanet
Mmos can never be balanced and fair. Better to embrace their inherant unfairness than go around pretending they're fucking quake.
I tend to agree with this stance on almost all games but when it comes to TES it actually fits. Why? Because they had gladiator battles in Oblivion. If you can go in the stands, watch, and bet I think it would be kind of cool. Having occasional tournaments that people sign up for etc. If it was done well it could work in TESO.
I do agree with embracing the inherant unfairness though balancing is unrealistic. How hard is it imagine a guy in full steal plate armor swining a claymore having no problem kicking the crap out of some guy wearing robes carrying a wand.
It sounds like who has the most territory gets access to the white and gold tower, then you have to do something with that to crown and emperor.
There will be several open dungeons familiar from oblivion dotted about cyrodil though. Hope the keep the ayelid traps in, could have some fun with thoose.
K11 The best fit to TES lore would be a fantasy eve system.
No classes, skill based. Low security areas, high security areas. Mages, morag tong etc.. as starter guilds before players form their own guilds.
But that would scare away the carebears. And with the budget of the game they will be looking for 1million + subs I guess.
I've nothing against gladiator battles where they make sense like orsinium. But they should be outdoors and 1 on 1 not in queue and teleport instances.
Originally posted by Axxar I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.
... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...
... I don't think so...
That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.
I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.
That was fun! I remember being a stealther in DF, and when it switched hands, you could watch the enemies run by you, as you stay invisible. Then try to ambush single or careless players.
Probably the biggest incentive to owning DF was the great PvE farming for cash. Hinges if I remember correctly.
I think that's right, was something you could deconstruct or sell for big cash which you then could use to perfect your gear/build.
I really enjoyed the deep DF groups as well, farming what we called "Jedi's" in the depths. Since they would respawn behind you, was fun watching the new invaders trying clear a path to your group while you kept pushing forward, waiting for the correct moment to try and ambush each other.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To the Op. I don't think any game yet made has had enough content for the content locusts and i doubt TESO will change that (or any other MMO ever) SOme games like STO have the foundry that can let players make content which can allieviate it a bit, but over All I'd suggest just expecting the same amount of content you get in pretty much every othher MMo released and be pleasantly surprised if you get more. Simply put don't expevct miracles. (and yes having enough content to satisfy the most hardcore content locust at launch would be a miracle on par with parting the red sea.)
If the games fun to play for a month or 2 I'll be happy enough. Hopefully Zenimax will have frequent content releases Ala rift to help keep the game enjoyable longer then that.
Without RVR I don't think the game has much appeal or different enough to have a long term success. Games just can't put enough content in them not to be stale, especially when most peeps can level up within 3 months of release. The high end of continueing to hit the same high level dungeogns/raid for better gear just to repeat the cycle seems lame in my opinion. The three realm approach fosters team spirit and gives the players something to do that effects the world, a much more rewarding experience at least to me. The nice thing is they can still have the high level dungeons/Raids with meaningful RvR, so more peeps can be happy. I knew plenty of peeps in DAoC who never RvR'ed, but enjoyed the game supporting those that did. Making the game with combat that isn't meaningful in any way won't help the games lastability.
I dont see an issue with faction locked content. My only concern is if they go with a straight sub and cash shop model. Recent history proves this works only for 3-6 months then the game is forced into f2p to save a sinking ship. I would like to see a tor style freemium model. Id pay a sub, and a restrictive f2p access would generate more subs and cash shop funds.
Originally posted by Caliburn101Having reviewed the posts on these forums about the various pro's and con's of ESO being the inheritor of TES lore and 'DAOC' gameplay, I can appreciate where the pro's are coming from.I was focussed until recently on the lack of freedom to see all of the gameworld with one character with this setup, and until yesterday thought it the biggest issue...... but it isn't...It hit me like a truck lunchtime yesterday.With three locked out factional areas - surely the devs have taken on the 'content locust' effect with both arms tied behind their backs!In PvE terms, they are essentially trying to create THREE MMOs in one - and with 100% voiced NPCs too?Now I am always prepared to give a game company the benefit of the doubt - but it is very difficult to see how the kind of player like me - who really likes to focus on a single main and who values the replayability of the PvE as much as the fun of the PvP - is going to have enough to do... ... is the game simply going to be that VAST? If it is vast enough for this not to be a concern - is the PvE element going to be varied enough to be engaging medium to long term?I must admit I find it difficult to accept that the game will be so big (in terms of the number of varied and interesting PvE 'things to d that it is in-effect the size and scope of Morriwind, Oblivion AND Skyrim combined...... that said - my hat would be off to them if they pull such a collossal feat off...... but I wonder if it can be done...
Just because they are creating 3 leveling areas it doesn't mean the end game has to be segregated, in fact I highly doubt it will be.
Here's what we know, PvP will take place on cyrodiil, so that will obviously be shared content, but also PvE is centered on cyrodiil too, Mannimarco is working with/using the current emperor for his and Molag Bal's plan, so I think its highly likely that at least some of the end game pve content will take place in and around the capitol.
Also a key thing they have pushed in interviews and their intro video is "adventure zones", when they talk about these they say they can be done solo in a group or in multiple groups(raids), if it scales to group size its more than likely instanced and if its instanced theres no reason it cant be shared content.
The only time they really need to think about whether or not they have bitten off more than they can chew is when it comes to an expansion, but even that can be written around
IMO, the biggest problem with this game is the forum goers who create laundry lists of 'issues' without the game even being available to play. How does one come to such an important conclusion about a games biggest problem without experience of all of said game's errors and missteps?
First of all, the game might have much bigger problems than lack of content, closed off factions, heavily instanced single player storylines, etc. The game might have severe graphical errors that cause siezures in otherwise healthy adults. The game might have a backdoor trojan that steals your personal info and transmits it to Africa opening you up to identity theft. The game might become self aware, and unite the machinery of the world against us humans.
Those would be pretty fucking big problems. Just sayin'.
Originally posted by Axxar I would expect all non-Cyrodil dungeons to have three entrances - one for each alliance.
... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...
... I don't think so...
That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.
I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.
That's all well and good for ONE dungeon with an IC explanation as to why the teleporters exists. Actually, it sounds most interesting...
... HOWEVER...
... that ALL dungeons would work this way is clearly ridiculous and would seem to everyone to be very, very forced...
IMO, the biggest problem with this game is the forum goers who create laundry lists of 'issues' without the game even being available to play. How does one come to such an important conclusion about a games biggest problem without experience of all of said game's errors and missteps?
First of all, the game might have much bigger problems than lack of content, closed off factions, heavily instanced single player storylines, etc. The game might have severe graphical errors that cause siezures in otherwise healthy adults. The game might have a backdoor trojan that steals your personal info and transmits it to Africa opening you up to identity theft. The game might become self aware, and unite the machinery of the world against us humans.
Those would be pretty fucking big problems. Just sayin'.
Yes - of course they would, but they are unlikely aren't they...
... plus they are more easily fixed than fundamental strategic-level design features which undermine the popularity of the IP with the very people they want to hook with it.
There are FAR fewer fans of DAOC than TES. This is a matter of fact explained by the timeframe involved and the multiple success story of every TES game to date.
To force fundamental changes to a successful IP formula to lever in a successful (but far older) PvP MMO IP was a false choice and partially self-defeating.
Comments
DAoC has had a lot of content added to it over the years, originally it was very sparce.
You need to compare "launch state" not what it has now.
TESO has nothing now. Game isn't out, can't be played.
You see the problem is, if someone says
"There is not enough content"
the reply is
"You have no idea the game isn't out"
but if you say
"DAOC had 41 dungeons and was huge so TESo will too"
it is justified to have that opinion!
Hypocrites.
My point has never been about content, always about the restrictions put in place to prevent exploring the world of Tamriel with a character (not 3 characters but with 1 character).
You won't get to see 1/3rd of the game. You will get to see 1/2 the game with each faction, since the central area is shared and is as big as each of the individual realms.
Zenimax are obviously focusing on the end game region primarily being PvP centric. This in itself combats the content locust effect, as PvP has far more staying power than PvE ever will.
It is also combating the TES fan effect too from listening to the feel of fan opinion.
Many of those who don't are swg / EQ /darkfall fans who are pissed that ZOS hasn't taken the mmo parts from their game.
... and the continent crisscrossed with teleportation tunnels hundreds of miles long...
... I don't think so...
I don't know how replayable TESO will be after the PVE cap. That certainly was never an issue for me in DAoC where the RvR was everything for me and PVE was something I did on rare occasions or in the PVP dungeon.
I'm not much of a raider any longer in any game simply because of the inordinate amount of wasted time spent getting 20 people together in one place to begin with and all the waiting around for the DC'd tank to come back or all the pizza deliveries or 20X bathroom breaks... so quantity of raid content just doesn't really matter to me.
I'll continue to log in if the RvR has enough to it for each campaign to be different enough to be fun--if not, I won't. It's that simple.
Give me content that is well-designed enough to be repeatable many times instead of additional content (which, btw is ususally just the same old shit in new clothes) any time.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Indeed, DAOC in launch state was an empty world. Most of the dungeons had no monsters at launch. And those that did have monsters had no loot. And the PvP at launch *snicker*. And then the population imbalances....
I really don't get the worship of DAOC as being a 'great pvp game'. Shadowbane, as buggy as it was, was more engaging (and it had server problems too, with one guild taking over a server...).
Basically, PvP and MMO has never mixed well (outside of arenas and team based pvp zones). Once it gets near 'open', it all falls down.
As a PvE player, and crafter, I had a blast in DAOC, playing RvR for fun but not as my main activity. There was definitely enough area to level several toons to 50, in one faction area. I also really enjoyed PvE in the PvP zones, because of the extra danger.
If TESO is anything like DAOC in size, it will be fine. The key to replayability is having different classes, that really play differently. My first 50 was a minstrel, the 2nd was a Cabalist. Even the Cabalist had three different paths to follow, with different abilities and play strategies. I went Spirit Cabalist.
Trials of Atlantis broke DAOC for me, I didn't really enjoy the whole "raid for 8 hours to get a trinket" kind of play. The best items should be crafter/player made, and not from drops.
If TESO has:
- 3 large areas, each at least as large as Skyrim, and
- multiple interesting and different classes, and
- focus on gathering and crafting, instead of massive raid drops
Then I think it should be fine.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
They aren't massively multiplayer.
They are instanced and could be in a lobby game rather than a mmo
They encourage stupid 1vs1 balance which can NEVER be accomplished.
They are a lie of "esports in a mmo" which is impossible, sold to suckas by blizzard and arenanet
Mmos can never be balanced and fair. Better to embrace their inherant unfairness than go around pretending they're fucking quake.
Couldn't agree more...hate those lobby, FPS-like aberrations in MMOs with a passion.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That's how it worked for Darkness Falls in DAOC, one entrance for each of the realms, accessible only to the realm with the greatest number of Keeps (big RVR incentive) and they battled fiercely underneath when the openings switched hands.
I used to keep a stealth character logged off in DF, wait until the initial rush calmed down, then log-in to gankthe solo players (or other stealthers) up near the entrances just for sport...then slip away and wait for it to switch hands again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That was fun! I remember being a stealther in DF, and when it switched hands, you could watch the enemies run by you, as you stay invisible. Then try to ambush single or careless players.
Probably the biggest incentive to owning DF was the great PvE farming for cash. Hinges if I remember correctly.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
I tend to agree with this stance on almost all games but when it comes to TES it actually fits. Why? Because they had gladiator battles in Oblivion. If you can go in the stands, watch, and bet I think it would be kind of cool. Having occasional tournaments that people sign up for etc. If it was done well it could work in TESO.
I do agree with embracing the inherant unfairness though balancing is unrealistic. How hard is it imagine a guy in full steal plate armor swining a claymore having no problem kicking the crap out of some guy wearing robes carrying a wand.
It sounds like who has the most territory gets access to the white and gold tower, then you have to do something with that to crown and emperor.
There will be several open dungeons familiar from oblivion dotted about cyrodil though. Hope the keep the ayelid traps in, could have some fun with thoose.
The best fit to TES lore would be a fantasy eve system.
No classes, skill based.
Low security areas, high security areas.
Mages, morag tong etc.. as starter guilds before players form their own guilds.
But that would scare away the carebears. And with the budget of the game they will be looking for 1million + subs I guess.
I've nothing against gladiator battles where they make sense like orsinium. But they should be outdoors and 1 on 1 not in queue and teleport instances.
I think that's right, was something you could deconstruct or sell for big cash which you then could use to perfect your gear/build.
I really enjoyed the deep DF groups as well, farming what we called "Jedi's" in the depths. Since they would respawn behind you, was fun watching the new invaders trying clear a path to your group while you kept pushing forward, waiting for the correct moment to try and ambush each other.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To the Op. I don't think any game yet made has had enough content for the content locusts and i doubt TESO will change that (or any other MMO ever) SOme games like STO have the foundry that can let players make content which can allieviate it a bit, but over All I'd suggest just expecting the same amount of content you get in pretty much every othher MMo released and be pleasantly surprised if you get more. Simply put don't expevct miracles. (and yes having enough content to satisfy the most hardcore content locust at launch would be a miracle on par with parting the red sea.)
If the games fun to play for a month or 2 I'll be happy enough. Hopefully Zenimax will have frequent content releases Ala rift to help keep the game enjoyable longer then that.
Just because they are creating 3 leveling areas it doesn't mean the end game has to be segregated, in fact I highly doubt it will be.
Here's what we know, PvP will take place on cyrodiil, so that will obviously be shared content, but also PvE is centered on cyrodiil too, Mannimarco is working with/using the current emperor for his and Molag Bal's plan, so I think its highly likely that at least some of the end game pve content will take place in and around the capitol.
Also a key thing they have pushed in interviews and their intro video is "adventure zones", when they talk about these they say they can be done solo in a group or in multiple groups(raids), if it scales to group size its more than likely instanced and if its instanced theres no reason it cant be shared content.
The only time they really need to think about whether or not they have bitten off more than they can chew is when it comes to an expansion, but even that can be written around
IMO, the biggest problem with this game is the forum goers who create laundry lists of 'issues' without the game even being available to play. How does one come to such an important conclusion about a games biggest problem without experience of all of said game's errors and missteps?
First of all, the game might have much bigger problems than lack of content, closed off factions, heavily instanced single player storylines, etc. The game might have severe graphical errors that cause siezures in otherwise healthy adults. The game might have a backdoor trojan that steals your personal info and transmits it to Africa opening you up to identity theft. The game might become self aware, and unite the machinery of the world against us humans.
Those would be pretty fucking big problems. Just sayin'.
That's all well and good for ONE dungeon with an IC explanation as to why the teleporters exists. Actually, it sounds most interesting...
... HOWEVER...
... that ALL dungeons would work this way is clearly ridiculous and would seem to everyone to be very, very forced...
Yes - of course they would, but they are unlikely aren't they...
... plus they are more easily fixed than fundamental strategic-level design features which undermine the popularity of the IP with the very people they want to hook with it.
There are FAR fewer fans of DAOC than TES. This is a matter of fact explained by the timeframe involved and the multiple success story of every TES game to date.
To force fundamental changes to a successful IP formula to lever in a successful (but far older) PvP MMO IP was a false choice and partially self-defeating.