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[Interview] Camelot Unchained: Mark Jacobs On Subs, RVR, and Sandboxes

13

Comments

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    I really like waht this guy is saying..

    1. RVR game

    2. Sub based game

    3. Niche game aimed at people who like RVR and pvp in general

    4. Realistic about the amount of subs he is thinking about getting

     

    Everything is ticking the right boxes here.. cant wait for the kickstarter page to come up..

     

  • NC-JohnNC-John burlington, WIPosts: 113Member

    I like how he was saying this morning, he was asking people not to cut down Zenimax/Bethesda he has a ton of people he loves who work there and he is friends with. You sometimes forget guys like mark have been in this buisness a long time. I know many people blame him for ruining games, but he has seemed to gain a great deal of humility and a pretty good sense of humor from some of it.

    Really looking forward to this. plenty of games coming as well like TESO/AA and more to keep us busy. should be able to kill a few years out of those, of course unless project Titan turns out to be Starcraft Universe then I have the time to wait.

    "Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor

  • xSyngexxSyngex streetsboro, OHPosts: 44Member

    "CU first differentiator is that the entire game revolves around RvR not RvR+PvE or PvE+RvR or anything like that."  

     

    Next please.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xSyngex

    "CU first differentiator is that the entire game revolves around RvR not RvR+PvE or PvE+RvR or anything like that."  

     

    Next please.

    Like the guy says this game is not going to be for everyone... and thats what is going to make this game awesome for people who like RVR games or PVP..

     

     
  • Marcus-Marcus- Posts: 970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xSyngex

    "CU first differentiator is that the entire game revolves around RvR not RvR+PvE or PvE+RvR or anything like that."  

     

    Next please.

    niche' game is niche'

     

    I love that he is going to focus on one thing. These developers keep trying to hit this imaginary grand slam, and please everyone, and pleasing very few. All this with these ridiculous budgets, marketing, fanfair,etc. its really gotten out of control (in my opinion) .

     

     

    I really enjoy RvR, i really enjoy housing, I really like (good/important) crafting, and i really don't mind PvE as a minor part of my MMO experience.  I am his target customer for this game, and i know i am in the minority.

     

    niche' game is niche'

  • CrazyhorsekCrazyhorsek LisboaPosts: 244Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OgreRaper
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    No pve? Meh

    Nope, this game is not meant for Raiders / PvE'ers.

    PvP or GTFO!

    oh you pro elite player you! You tell them how it is to be hardcore... go get em girl - I mean MAD SKILLS BAD ASS ELITE PLAYER

    image
  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,429Member Uncommon

    A fresh coat of paint on a car that can't get out of first gear won't make it sell any better.

    These game developers are really stuck in a rut.

    Once upon a time....

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    I don't know why everyone assumes you have to go f2p to be successful in this market.  As I said earlier, f2p just screams cheap to me.  When you start a game as f2p it just says you cannot compete.  Is that the kind of game you want?

    I like what he says so far.  Let's hope he can produce what he is describing.

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    Many will see this as  DAOC 2 .. 

    The Tens of thousands  that  LEFT  DAoC because of  TOA plus  the  current players  and those who Once  played...   may  find  this  something  they HAVE  to try. 

  • TaldrenTaldren Delran, NJPosts: 4Member
    I hope against hope.

    image

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Wait... what? I thought the industry told us that the sub model was unprofitable and unsustainable?

     

    Yet here we have, from a man very much in the know, saying he can run his game for a niche audience on it... makes you wonder why those other guys say they can't eh? Maybe it is down to making a sustanable profit or just profiteering, as some here have always maintained?

     

    I admire a man who puts game design before high marketing numbers and a man who seems to understand how the cash shop model is awful for community building and core game design (I do disagree with him that this isn't important for PvE games as well though, but I feel he is being somewhat diplomatic towards his industry peers in what he says here).

    The industry can tell us all it wants.  Trion said Storm Legion sales blew their socks off because they hit 13% sales instead of only 7%.  What they say is meaningless.  What they report is what matters.

    So how did the sub-model work for his last rvr game?  Oh yeah, that's right I'm going there.

    Let's say he learned his "lessons" from that experience (I doubt it but we'll give him the benefit).  How is he supposed to make and pay for his game with his 60K subscribers?  How much does it take to develop a game?  People want a triple A experience and say they're willing to pay for it, yet only 2 sub-locked games (WoW and EVE) have been more than anemically successful.

    Anyway, back to the math.  At the very least it's going to cost $20M unless he goes browser based or uses a cheap crap engine.  Like I said above, at 60K players that will cost each player $333 just to break even.

    Please explain how the math is supposed to work for the niche?  Is he going to have to go for the mass cash grab and then settle for niche subs?  That is the only way he could fund it with meager numbers.

    The problem here is he is telling people like you everything you want to hear and you're eating up.  Do the math, put him and his idea through the ringer, and if he comes out clean then you'll have a good deal on your hands.  But please don't posture about sub-locked "victory" before your chicken has even laid its eggs.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    I don't know why everyone assumes you have to go f2p to be successful in this market.  As I said earlier, f2p just screams cheap to me.  When you start a game as f2p it just says you cannot compete.  Is that the kind of game you want?

    I like what he says so far.  Let's hope he can produce what he is describing.

    Funny because P2P just screams empty cash grab to me.  Kickstarter, tiered subs (warning danger will robinson), and niche profits.

    What is it you pro sub-locked fans always say?  You get what you pay for.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    I like what I am hearing.

    Smaller scale scope by only focusing on RvR = Planetside 2

    Focus on player owned real-estate and crafting = EvE

    Fantasy genre = 90% of MMOs

     

    Cutting out the PVE 1 month and done treadmill where people cry and cry about having no end-game is great. PVE involves massive amounts of time and money to produce content that people play for a month and then never see again. MMO after MMO has countless empty pve zones a few months in.

     

    Combinging Planetside 2 with DAOC and throwing in some parts of EvE to create longevity sounds brilliant to me.

  • Dr_NegativeDr_Negative Cleveland, TNPosts: 47Member

    "CU first differentiator is that the entire game revolves around RvR not RvR+PvE or PvE+RvR or anything like that. Also, systems such as crafting and housing are also tied directly into RvR. The economy will be player-owned and crafters will be a very necessary part of the game/Community."

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_B3dvFMyDE

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Nihilist

    I like what I am hearing.

    Smaller scale scope by only focusing on RvR = Planetside 2

    Focus on player owned real-estate and crafting = EvE

    Fantasy genre = 90% of MMOs

     

    Cutting out the PVE 1 month and done treadmill where people cry and cry about having no end-game is great. PVE involves massive amounts of time and money to produce content that people play for a month and then never see again. MMO after MMO has countless empty pve zones a few months in.

     

    Combinging Planetside 2 with DAOC and throwing in some parts of EvE to create longevity sounds brilliant to me.

    Very well put, I wish them all the best and will definitely put my money where my mouth is when kickstarter campaign is up

  • evilizedevilized columbus, OHPosts: 564Member Uncommon

    If the RvR + crafting fitting together comes out to being anything like building your own cities for your own faction and your own guild within that faction out in a HUGE persistant environment full of resources (shadowbane) that would benefit your realm in some way, i would be all over this game.

     

    Mark, can you save the MMO genre? I am putting my hopes and dreams in small indie studios because that is where the real innovation will be coming from in the current market. We have all been burned enough over the last 9 years. Here's hoping.

     

     

    **and people, please don't forget that small scale niche MMO's have been working and profitable since the late 90's, it isn't some new thing. WoW was an outlier as it is and probably will remain the only MMO to reach subs in the double digit millions. Aiming your product at 50,000 people and having them pay $12-15 a month is perfectly fine for a small studio, you dont need to be raking in $100+ million per month to be considered successful.

     
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Nihilist
    As much as I like ps2, and I do think its the best mmo of the last 6 years or so.

    I would be in my element with a ps1 meets daoc meets eve mmo
  • PigEyePigEye campbellsville, KYPosts: 78Member
    I have faith, but lets take that with a grain of salt.

    PigEye McNasty
    DFOUW NA

  • SeariasSearias Edmonton, ABPosts: 712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wighty
    This guy wins the F2P vs. Sub argument hands down!

    This.

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  • MrBootsMrBoots a, ALPosts: 277Member
    I'm so hyped about getting another RvR focused turd from Mark. Warhammer Online take 2. Why do I want to play a game where I'm forced to be on teams full of people I hate? Why can't we pick our own teams? Whats with all these guys promising faux sandbox? Does anyone other than me realize what a load of crap that is?
  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon

    A medieval Planetside 2 with tiered sub rates and a developmentally cheap system of PvP to keep the masses (sorry, niche group) enthralled for years on end? With very little PvE (the traditional staple of rpg progress) to boot? Hmm where have I seen this focus on PvP with PvE lite content before?

    • Warhammer Online
    • Global Agenda
    • Darkfall
    • Mortal Online

    Every mmo to date needs strong PvE elements worth fighting for. The "great" Shadowbane had sense enough to understand this most basic mmorpg concept. Even DAoC had it's fair share of PvE content that was unique to which ever side you chose to support. Dunno, I just think that many here are too quick to write off tradition without giving thought to MJ's most obvious reasons for doing so: PvE content is bad for business.  PvP on the other hand is cheaper to make, last longer and requires less maintenance. I mean this is the same guy that said earlier that you need dragons to appeal to asian mmo players. Yeah real insight there.

     

    Either way it goes, it will be entertaining to see how this pans out. It just seems to me that all the aging developers that started the genre are fast approaching that stage in their careers where they hope to cash in on name recognition alone. Well that and a few buzzwords to mez the masses that stumble and drool with every word they mutter. Dunno. I always played the games that appealed to me because I liked the game itself, not who's name was attached to it. Oh well. Here's hoping that this endeavor turns out to be just what all you RvR guys have been wishing for.image

     

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • AlomarAlomar Middle Earth, NJPosts: 447Member Uncommon
    Been waiting on this announcement for years. I'm in!

    Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    I don't know why everyone assumes you have to go f2p to be successful in this market.  As I said earlier, f2p just screams cheap to me.  When you start a game as f2p it just says you cannot compete.  Is that the kind of game you want?

    I like what he says so far.  Let's hope he can produce what he is describing.

    Funny because P2P just screams empty cash grab to me.  Kickstarter, tiered subs (warning danger will robinson), and niche profits.

    What is it you pro sub-locked fans always say?  You get what you pay for.

    p2p is a cash grab? Its stated up front, 15/month for 24/7 entertainment and no restrictions for 30 days....... how is that a cash grab? Old games charged 2$/hour now you get the same entertainment for an entire 30 days for 50 cents per day. Find me cheaper entertainment. MMORPG subscription prices are about the only thing in our economy that hasnt risen 300% since a decade ago.

    F2P are cheap, their updates are usualy centered around their cash shops to milk more out of you.

    Kickstarters so far have been mostly f2p games......... just saying.

    You statement is full of holes.

     

    Now look at it from the other point of view. You are a business owner of lets say a all you can eat buffet establishment.

    You serve 1000 people per day and charging everyone the same you make killing profits.

    Over time you dumb your food down, offer less food, and your food becomes bland and people dont want to pay any longer.

    Is that the pay models fault of the owners fault?

    So you decide to start letting people eat for free...........

    3000 people show up and only 5 per every 100 pay anything towards the food. But you have to pay for more tables, chairs, ishes, and food. Are you honestly thinking that will make you more profit?

    So now you have around 150 paying customers out of your 3000, and 150 is greater than your original 1000 customers? All because you tried to cut corners and spend less time making quality food thinking so many will just pay up for half the work done.

     

     

    Simple fact, the newer game suck, copy wow way too much, offer no long term playability, remove features, force you down a set path, remove your choice and freedom, and people are sick of that. If the game sucks to begin with and no one wants to pay, turning it f2p wont make the game any better.

     

  • CerthaxCerthax AnkaraPosts: 5Member
    I am still playing DaoC and im gonna give a chance.
  • leaf16nutleaf16nut Northern, ONPosts: 26Member Common

    All these old school MMOs are getting remakes... I'm still waiting for an Ultima Online remake ):

     

    Looks promising, definitely adding it to my watch list, high time the sandbox MMO makes a come back; I'm tired of boring quest based carebear MMOs that have no risk.

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