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A Players Bill of Rights.

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Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    You have no rights.  There is a game.  If you want to play the game, go ahead.  If you don't like the way the game is played, stop playing.

    Those are your only rights.

     I disagree, customer service should always be number one with any thing. Why Should I spend any of my money on any MMO game if I feel that I have no rights? I will not.

    Because it is fun?

    Don't play any games .. THAT is your right. Other than that, you don't really have any.

  • jonrd463jonrd463 Tacoma, WAPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by jonrd463
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Where is your list of responsibilities?

    You have no idea how much I wish MMORPG.com would add a "Like" or rating function to forum posts right now.

     Responsiblities for?? Many things to be responsible for.

    Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

    In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

    So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by jonrd463
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Where is your list of responsibilities?

    You have no idea how much I wish MMORPG.com would add a "Like" or rating function to forum posts right now.

    Or how many players, nay, Americans only stare at that phrase thinking "Whut?"

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jonrd463
     

    Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

    In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

    So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

    Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

    Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

  • jonrd463jonrd463 Tacoma, WAPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jonrd463
     

    Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

    In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

    So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

    Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

    Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

    It's in the laws that society enacts. For example, freedom of speech is a right. Libel and slander are criminal offenses. Another responsibility that goes along with rights is an understanding of how they relate. Otherwise you get "Hey, if it feels good, man, do it!" with an implied "...and damn the consequences!"

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    I am a TSW player so i can clearly understand the RNG part. That being said however, i do enjoy sometimes having things on this list NOT happen. IF your making a quest based on investigation and Thought you should make the quest unclear. It means that when you figure it out its a accomplishment.  Modern day Questing is simple

     

    1. Accept Quest

    2. Follow Quest marker

    3. Screw around until you do what your supposed to be doing.

    4. Return to Sender.

     

    While i am quite aware that TSW has these aswell, the Investigation quests are a nice breath of fresh air. If i were to do a Sandbox game that included quests, i would probubly not use Quest markers so that people actually have to read and figure out whats going on.

    There is a difference between making things unclear and making things Mind Numbing.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jonrd463
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jonrd463
     

    Responsibilities are implied if one is to claim rights. I know this is an international forum, but in terms of the US and its constitution, which is what most people think of when one says "bill of rights", we have the right to vote, but we have the responsibility to educate ourselves on the issues. We have the right to keep and bear arms, but we have the responsibility to secure them from misuse. We have the right to free speech, but we have the responsibility to not use that right to defame, slander, or otherwise materially harm another with it. We have the right to assembly, but we have the responsibility to not assemble in such a way that would deprive another of their freedoms, etc... etc...

    In a nutshell, we have all sorts of rights, but we have the responsibility to abide by the laws that govern society. While one could make a case for civil disobedience, those are extreme cases and doesn't apply to 99% of rights and the responsibilities that go hand in hand.

    So in gaming terms, yeah, we have the right to this, that, and the other, but who is willing to stand up and say players have responsibilities, too?

    Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

    Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

    It's in the laws that society enacts. For example, freedom of speech is a right. Libel and slander are criminal offenses. Another responsibility that goes along with rights is an understanding of how they relate. Otherwise you get "Hey, if it feels good, man, do it!" with an implied "...and damn the consequences!"

    In that case, there is no responsibility to be educated about politics before we vote, nor anything about gaming.

    Show me the law that i have to play games in a certain way.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities? Those are desires .. but there is no enforcement of any kind. People routinely votes without even read through all the relevant materials, and i don't have to tell you about the mis-use of fire arms in recent months.

    Games .. are just entertainment. I don't see there is any responsibility. I will play it my way and have fun. That is more or less .. it.

    "A rational anarchist believes that concepts, such as "state" and "society" and "government" have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame ... as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world ... aware that his efforts will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure."

    "Any government will work if authority and responsibility are equal and coordinate. This does not insure "good" government; it simply insures that it will work. But such governments are rare — most people want to run things but want no part of the blame. This used to be called the 'backseat-driver syndrome'."

    etc.--headed for some pretty arcane (and boring) conceptualizations.

    And no, I don't want to split hairs with you today.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

    First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

     Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

    It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

    It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

    First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

     Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

    It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

    It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

    That i agree with. There is no rights here. Just devs choosing to do things certain way, and you can choose whether to play.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities?

     The Taxation Clause:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

    It means government has a right to collect it with the approval of the Congress, and citizens have a responsibility to pay it, or they will be held accountable by law and powers given to the government to collect such taxes by the Congress.

     

    Try not paying taxes, lol.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Where in the constitution says I have those responsibilities?

     The Taxation Clause:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

    It means government has a right to collect it with the approval of the Congress, and citizens have a responsibility to pay it, or they will be held accountable by law and powers given to the government to collect such taxes by the Congress.

     

    Try not paying taxes, lol.

    I mean the responsibility of being educated before voting, and playing games certain ways. Read the post before to see what "those" refers to.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

    First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

     Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

    It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

    It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

    That i agree with. There is no rights here. Just devs choosing to do things certain way, and you can choose whether to play.

    Maybe we can go all American Revolution on their asses and start raiding the buildings until it is implimented.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe

    First off, I believe Rights wasn't really a good term to use, considering that as a consumer we have no rights or entitlements ( I consider it a synonym) to games.  

     Yes, I think both the OP and the writer of the article totally misused the wordings of the title.

    It should instead be called "Declaration of Basic Principles of MMO Development" or the "10 Commandments of Quality MMO Development"

    It is NOT a Bill of Rights.

    That i agree with. There is no rights here. Just devs choosing to do things certain way, and you can choose whether to play.

    Maybe we can go all American Revolution on their asses and start raiding the buildings until it is implimented.

    Didn't we vote with our time & money already? Do we really have to drag our physical bodies over to their buildings?

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    Many posts on this thread proves what the quality of a large portion of the posters on MMORPG.com is of.

    With this quality level it is understandable, that rarely anything here is worth reading beyond many of the opening posts. You have to look long and hard for replies of value.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon

    Player Bill of Rights?...  While your heart may be in the right place, until development becomes a science, rather than the art that it is, its unlikely.   The subject of "rights" is rather more complex than many people believe.  Understanding such concepts would aid in their proper application.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_rights

    Not to mention the current reality.  If companies had the option of being honest, their EULA would be a simple phrase, such as ; "We can do what we want, when we want, and your only real recourse is to not play this game" .  Which in reality is what all the legal mumbo jumbo translates to.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Might be interesting as a concept, but the points given are rather weak, some even express gameplay preference or are outdated.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by Jemcrystal

     

    Derp.  

     

    Nice post OP.  Nothing I have to say is directed at you.  I'm addressing the ideas presented and you are cool with me.

     

    Well, it is hard for me to imagine that anyone would respect a bill of rights for gamers when they don't respect the political bill of rights for real life.  Even if it protects them.  Just an all around lack of respect centering around, I'm guessing, their own discontentments.

     TY I am not sure if it comes down to it if the word respect is the correct word to use? To sum it up is it fun for me to keep playing and paying?

    image

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yes it is true here is a blog that gives us a point of view from Graham Nelson who created Craft of Adventure Five articles on the design of adventure games.

    This last one is a age old argument P2P vs F2P Intreasting that Graham had thoughts on this very subject back in '95.

     

     Where is your list of responsibilities?

    +10

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member

    Honestly, I really didn't give this much credit after reading:

    1. "Not to be killed without warning. clearly that insta-death wasn't fun, even if that death was the result of a bad decision from the player. We made a set of changes to help give players a second to assess the situation and react."

    Here's what I saw:

    In EQ1, breaking the Plane of Fear, Cazic-Thule calls out your name!...

    A box pops up asking "Cazic-Thule, Lord of Fear, has requested that you fall dead because you have angered him. Do you accept? Press 'YES' or 'NO'"

    I really think this might have changed how the game was played and intended, don't ya think?

  • MarirranyaMarirranya Ortario, OHPosts: 154Member

    i think its a nice read. and hey, its free to dream right?

    the gamer bill of rights can be taken seriously or not. its up to you guys though on how you wanna take it :3

    There are people who play games and then there are gamers.

    http://alzplz.blogspot.com

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    The Taxation Clause:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

    It means government has a right to collect it with the approval of the Congress, and citizens have a responsibility to pay it, or they will be held accountable by law and powers given to the government to collect such taxes by the Congress.

     

    Try not paying taxes, lol.

    A little more involved that just the IRS. You can't escape jury duty either, nor the Draft (when one is necessary).

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.749cabd81f5ffc8fba713d10526e0aa0/?vgnextoid=39d2df6bdd42a210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=39d2df6bdd42a210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

    What we explain (to naturalized citizens) what the responsibilities they're signing on for entail.

    Most native-born citizens are...less educated about civic responsibilities than our immigrants are. But some of these are considered implicits rather than explicit.

    Do we still have high school Civics, at all?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by Marirranya

    i think its a nice read. and hey, its free to dream right?

    the gamer bill of rights can be taken seriously or not. its up to you guys though on how you wanna take it :3

    Ty You got the whole gest of the thread.image

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Player Bill of Rights?...  While your heart may be in the right place, until development becomes a science, rather than the art that it is, its unlikely.   The subject of "rights" is rather more complex than many people believe.  Understanding such concepts would aid in their proper application.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_rights

    Not to mention the current reality.  If companies had the option of being honest, their EULA would be a simple phrase, such as ; "We can do what we want, when we want, and your only real recourse is to not play this game" .  Which in reality is what all the legal mumbo jumbo translates to.

    That is pretty much how a free market works for entertainment products. The devs are not obligated to do anything for you, and you are not obligated to buy their products.

    (This is of course different than necessities like food.)

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