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Inconvenience is the Key

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  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    If there are not, then why do we always end up with the argument "the majority has chosen it, therefore it is better" ? (even if it not true apart of special cases)

    From both (and sometimes all three) of you?

    Flame on!

    :)

    It has nothing to do with being better, it has everything to do with these games needing to make money and therefore, what the majority of paying customers want, the majority of paying customers get.

    "Better" and "worse" are just subjective opinions, they mean nothing.

    I see, so 200-300k paying customes can be both success or failure, depending on the point you are trying to make.

    That itself makes the "profit" argument a non-issue, only if you want to bash someone with it.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    If there are not, then why do we always end up with the argument "the majority has chosen it, therefore it is better" ? (even if it not true apart of special cases)

    From both (and sometimes all three) of you?

    Flame on!

    :)

    It has nothing to do with being better, it has everything to do with these games needing to make money and therefore, what the majority of paying customers want, the majority of paying customers get.

    "Better" and "worse" are just subjective opinions, they mean nothing.

    I see, so 200-300k paying customes can be both success or failure, depending on the point you are trying to make.

    That itself makes the "profit" argument a non-issue, only if you want to bash someone with it.

    Flame on!

    :)

    hmm .. i think "majority" is pretty well defined, and 200-300k is no where close to the "majority".

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The key is fun.

    Coming from an old timer like me, I think the biggest problem is that there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation with the kinds of activities we do in MMO games - break down the actual actions and tasks you do in a recently released game and they mirror what we were doing back in UO and EQ pretty well.

    It's been presented in different ways - action combat, dynamic events, phasing, instancing, etc. etc.

    But it's all still pretty much the same at the core.

    We need new types of gameplay and new rewards to bring back the fun.

    It's just all so static and arbitrary.

    MOBs and NPCs still spawn and respawn and create loot/money out of thin air.

    Players are still immortal and their character's death rarely ever has any true impact.

    Even in quote "dynamic" games and the mythical magical "sandbox" it all boils down to the same, artificial and arbitrary actions over an over again.

    We're all just playing the numbers in the end...

    Where is the soul?

    Stat Craft. Math Box.

    Might as well be playing Roller Coaster Repeat or Whack a Mole sandbox.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    The key is fun.

    Coming from an old timer like me, I think the biggest problem is that there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation with the kinds of activities we do in MMO games - break down the actual actions and tasks you do in a recently released game and they mirror what we were doing back in UO and EQ pretty well.

    It's been presented in different ways - action combat, dynamic events, phasing, instancing, etc. etc.

    But it's all still pretty much the same at the core.

    We need new types of gameplay and new rewards to bring back the fun.

    It's just all so static and arbitrary.

    MOBs and NPCs still spawn and respawn and create loot/money out of thin air.

    Players are still immortal and their character's death rarely ever has any true impact.

    Even in quote "dynamic" games and the mythical magical "sandbox" it all boils down to the same, artificial and arbitrary actions over an over again.

    We're all just playing the numbers in the end...

    Where is the soul?

    Stat Craft. Math Box.

    Might as well be playing Roller Coaster Repeat or Whack a Mole sandbox.

    Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

    Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

    In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    The key is fun.

    Coming from an old timer like me, I think the biggest problem is that there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation with the kinds of activities we do in MMO games - break down the actual actions and tasks you do in a recently released game and they mirror what we were doing back in UO and EQ pretty well.

    It's been presented in different ways - action combat, dynamic events, phasing, instancing, etc. etc.

    But it's all still pretty much the same at the core.

    We need new types of gameplay and new rewards to bring back the fun.

    It's just all so static and arbitrary.

    MOBs and NPCs still spawn and respawn and create loot/money out of thin air.

    Players are still immortal and their character's death rarely ever has any true impact.

    Even in quote "dynamic" games and the mythical magical "sandbox" it all boils down to the same, artificial and arbitrary actions over an over again.

    We're all just playing the numbers in the end...

    Where is the soul?

    Stat Craft. Math Box.

    Might as well be playing Roller Coaster Repeat or Whack a Mole sandbox.

    Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

    Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

    In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

    MIssing the point.

    In STO space combat you press buttons to shoot at ships, you have DPS and HP and special abilities etc. etc. same with ground combat. TERA combat is the same thing - sure you may have to dodge/block but beyond that it is really the same as combat in EQ.

    But really the point is - what's the point? Get loot, gain experience, complete a quest, etc.

    The mobs all respawn, the loot is created out of thin air, the instances are repeated a million times over.

    Sandbox does that aspect better, but sandbox is still artificial and contrived and just as pointless and driven by loot and gaining XP or what not.

    I want a MMO where when I go into the woods and hunt down and kill a pack of wandering Orcs and destroy their camp, that has an effect on the world.

    Again, sandbox does this better - for example in EvE if I go kill a player and blow up his ship, that ship took resources to build that another player built and another player gathered with a ship and skill books etc. that another player made etc. etc.

    But that game too is limited and terribly artificial because all the minerals respawn in asteroid fields and such. There is no scarcity - only rarity due to players not farming at much.

    I enjoy "fun" and I have it playing "fun" games that have great action (right now for me its GW2) but the genre has NOT advanced anywhere near as far as I thought it would when I was sitting around playing UO 13+ years ago and day dreaming about what the future of MMOs may hold.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
     

    Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

    Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

    In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

    Perhaps some of us need new gameplay just because we've seen all that is out there right now. Then again, there's still a lot to improve in current action MMORPGs and there hasn't been a satisfactory space combat MMO either. Auto Assault fell short on a good idea. So did Pirates of the Burning Sea... Ok, yeah, there is a wide array of gameplay styles that haven't been made "well" yet.

    Still... I would welcome new ones too.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    MIssing the point.

    In STO space combat you press buttons to shoot at ships, you have DPS and HP and special abilities etc. etc. same with ground combat. TERA combat is the same thing - sure you may have to dodge/block but beyond that it is really the same as combat in EQ.

    I must say that having played War Thunder now which doesn't use an HP bar, it feels quite refreshing.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
     

    Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

    Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

    In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

    Perhaps some of us need new gameplay just because we've seen all that is out there right now. Then again, there's still a lot to improve in current action MMORPGs and there hasn't been a satisfactory space combat MMO either. Auto Assault fell short on a good idea. So did Pirates of the Burning Sea... Ok, yeah, there is a wide array of gameplay styles that haven't been made "well" yet.

    Still... I would welcome new ones too.

    Although EVE has it's merits...I yet again am stunned to see myself agree with Quirhid on this. Would be GREAT to see a really decent Space oriented MMO. Hopefully one with at least SOME planet exploration and really good twitch Space combat. No point and click crap.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    In STO space combat you press buttons to shoot at ships, you have DPS and HP and special abilities etc. etc. same with ground combat. TERA combat is the same thing - sure you may have to dodge/block but beyond that it is really the same as combat in EQ.

    That is over-simplification and no difference than saying all video games are the same since you push some buttons and stuff happens on screen.

    For example, i play a full phaser cruiser in STO, i need to keep my broadside facing enemies so i can fire all my phasers (with firing arcs different than other weapons) at the enemy ship. This is different from a escort where i manever so my bow is facing the enemy ship and i can fire projectiles.

    That is obviously different consideration from the action combat in Tera. If you think that is the same .. then there is no point of looking for new games. They are all the same to you .. just push buttons and stuff happens.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
     

    Although EVE has it's merits...I yet again am stunned to see myself agree with Quirhid on this. Would be GREAT to see a really decent Space oriented MMO. Hopefully one with at least SOME planet exploration and really good twitch Space combat. No point and click crap.

     

    I am also in agreement. Eve combat is just not fun. STO does space ship combat MUCH better.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Perhaps some of us need new gameplay just because we've seen all that is out there right now. Then again, there's still a lot to improve in current action MMORPGs and there hasn't been a satisfactory space combat MMO either. Auto Assault fell short on a good idea. So did Pirates of the Burning Sea... Ok, yeah, there is a wide array of gameplay styles that haven't been made "well" yet.

    Still... I would welcome new ones too.

    Sure .. no one says you cannot have fun with new improved stuff. May be i am lucky. Many video games are still fun to me. If not, i would have gone to do something else. Why play anything that is not fun?

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    ... I am wasting my time trying to hold intelligent conversation with you...


    I could have told you that ten pages back. You made your point; no sense in bickering with MMO members who just want to argue.



    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Although EVE has it's merits...I yet again am stunned to see myself agree with Quirhid on this. Would be GREAT to see a really decent Space oriented MMO. Hopefully one with at least SOME planet exploration and really good twitch Space combat. No point and click crap.


    Agreed. Some aspects of Eve are amazing. But I don't like that all combat uses auto-pilot and auto-firing.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    If there are not, then why do we always end up with the argument "the majority has chosen it, therefore it is better" ? (even if it not true apart of special cases)

    From both (and sometimes all three) of you?

    Flame on!

    :)

    It has nothing to do with being better, it has everything to do with these games needing to make money and therefore, what the majority of paying customers want, the majority of paying customers get.

    "Better" and "worse" are just subjective opinions, they mean nothing.

    I see, so 200-300k paying customes can be both success or failure, depending on the point you are trying to make.

    That itself makes the "profit" argument a non-issue, only if you want to bash someone with it.

    Flame on!

    :)

    hmm .. i think "majority" is pretty well defined, and 200-300k is no where close to the "majority".

    Well, i am pointing out, that when someone suggests that rift, a game that appeals (or appealed at launch) to the majority, was not very successful for a 50mil project, we end up in a situation where things like "200-300k is enough for a succesful game" are thrown around.

    While now suddenly one has to appeal to the majority because, obviously, eve (300k) or runescape (500k+) are not making enough money and are not succesful.

    And given that there are much more gamers than those who ever played a mmo, majority is a foggy concept itself in this case.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    A lot of what you require for a sustained number of subscriptions is based on the budget of the game. 200k-300k is a perfectly sustainable number if you budget for that many. The problem is that many of the publishers today throw tons of money at a concept without any real idea of what kind of numbers are geniunely sustainable, and when they fail to make a massive profit, they blame it on the concept, not their own shortcomings and lack of understanding the market looking for that kind of game.
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Only morons roll on a PvP server without being willing to fight back. Love when people use the "willing to fight back" argument to defend morons. 

    Oh the unwillingness to fight back may also come from the fact that you may be outnumbered 5:1 or powerlevel is significantly lower than your opponents. Yeah, they are morons for not bringing enough friends or grinding hard enough.

    Everyone knows how brave such "PvPers" are. Especially when there's harsh death penalty.

    Don't roll on a PvP server unless you are willing to plan escape routes and be paranoid at all times. It is like going camping and then wondering why the reception is so bad. 

     

    Depending on PvP systems you can even win a 5:1 encounter by causing more damage to them (in a general sense, not necessarily damage to the health bar) than they do to you.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    what is your ranking on LOL? Instanced pvp is easy? Have you seen the pros in Korea? Instanced e-sport is much harder than any open world stuff.

     

    Except open world stuff  can include spying, backstabbing, politics, economical damage, etc. While LoL is a very fun instanced PvP game, it is very confined and which is why it can't offer what well-done open world PvP can create. On the other hand, the combat and farming in LoL is very much balanced. I suppose EvE would be a great example of PvP that is far more than just physical combat. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,946Member Uncommon

    Computer games are esier today than before and it is indeed not fun but difficult and inconvinient is not the same thing.

    One thing MMOs still are is as grindy as they always been even if the grind are more focused on daily quests, faction and endgame gear instead of leveling as it used to be.

    So I dont agree with OP, difficulty together with player created or at least less repetetive content is the key.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,754Member Uncommon

    Press here for End Game: [Game Over]

    That was good, no traveling and no "inconvenience". Pavlov's dogs would be barking for joy. :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    Press here for End Game: [Game Over]

    That was good, no traveling and no "inconvenience". Pavlov's dogs would be barking for joy. :)

    And no fun? Try a game that has fun combat and no inconvenience. Many ARPG fits the bill.

     

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon

    I agree that traveling for 20 minutes would be a very bad game design, especially with little entertainment in between. However, instead of fixing that problem, we decide to ignore it and skip it by teleporting past it.

    There is no reason why they can't simply just make it fun. Things that they currently do that makes traveling more boring is they include the same mobs in the same locations that drop the same stuff. If you killed 5 of them, there is no longer a sense of surprise and you are likely to have received everything you could possibly earn from that mob.

    Making mobs more random, meaning a strong mob could possibly appear anywhere at any given time will add a more dynamic and exciting time as you travel, as it will not always be the same. Drops should also be varied. Why should a particular mob only drop only a possibility of 5 different items and when you could do more like 50?

    A: "Oh, wow! Where did you find that sword, it looks so cool?!" ... B: "A Berserker dropped it" ... A: "Really? I didn't even know they dropped that item, must be rare." I find this type of situation doesn't happen anymore. It makes traveling more important as skipping it could possibly mean skipping a potential rare drop.

    Players should also be able to slightly effect the environment and the environment should change from time to time during updates. "What!? The volcano is erupting?" Changing environment always adds to the the excitement of traveling.

    Basic maps, that only show you what you need to see. Get to point A to point B, but not show you there is a secret path to a uncharted mountain cave in between that could possibly be explored for treasure. Sure, sure .. I know it will not stay a secret, and will show up on wiki, but if your into exploring, why would you cheat and look it up on wiki? XD So I don't find that to be an issue. To me it's an issue, when the game just tells you where everything is. At the end of the day this can also be tied to changing environments to add to already existing content.

    Actually I think it would be even more interesting if there was "time" in an mmo. Not like how they been doing it, where a day is like 24 minutes. I am talking about more along the lines of animal crossing. Include months and years into the equation. Include events the only happen during a certain time.

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