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Originally posted by Schoeneck93 I'm not going to dignify the fact that you think parents who play games in guilds are one step above child abusers with a response. I mean... I don't see how you're making that connection man. It just doesn't make sense. WHO cares if this person doesn't meet all the time requirements. What if they just want to play with friends that are in the Guild, or get in on raids when they have free time? Why do they have to be to every single one? WHY? It doesn't make any sense. Tell me why, don't just keep saying "Because they can't be to every single raid". Why do they have to come to every one?
It's legit..a form of neglect..which is also considered child abuse. If they just wanna play casual they can go join a casual guild..if they apply to a hardcore raiding guild and then don't make the raids or leave late or go afk too much..it doesn't really matter what the reason is...gkick on the spot. And you keep asking WHY? Because it's my guild and I said so..thats a good enough reason for me.
Originally posted by Po_gg Originally posted by CalmOceans Anyway, let me explain myself. I don't have children, the guild which I'm a member of tends to be low on moms with children and we, for better or for worse, don't tend to accept moms with children after all the drama and trouble they have caused in the past in our guild. Before anyone gets upset, we do have two moms in our guild and they are really great players. However, usually moms have for whatever reason an incredibly short fuse and, while understandable, their child comes before the game, they have on most occasions been more detrimental to our guild's progress than helpful. It's also incredibly hard to explain to someone with a child that if they can't put the raiding first the guild might not be for them, try to explain someone with a young kid that the game should come before RL and they will flip and lose it and cause drama. You think we're unfair if we deny applicants just on the basis of being a mom with child, companies do this, why can't we?
Wow, that was ... strange, and not because I'm in the target audience (I could be a dad at most ). To be honest this attitude is exactly why I prefer my kin / guild / fleet / cabal / etc. to have at least one of these tags: rp, casual, social, gaming, or something similar.
"comes before the game", "they can't put the raiding first", and especially "the game should come before RL" - is it only me who started to see huge WTF signs? I mean I know some "live by the raid-calendar"-type dudes, but they're still around 20 and in college. Game should come before RL, are you serious or just trolling?
But to the question in the end, not unfair, just dumb. It's your guild, you can put whatever elitist filter you want in the application process. On the other hand I don't think it will do any good to a guild, and probably it's against the TOS as well... (I'm not sure about this, but there's a huge chance it is, since you want to decide based on gender and social status)
Actually its not a TOS issue at all. Filtering out applicants is simply filtering out applicants. if anyone who asked could join a guild then Guilds would be Raided and pillaged, their banks would be made bare to anyone.
I Disagree, This isn't so much as it being "Dumb" its actually not, its more working toward effectiveness. If you are part of a Guild who is Focusing on Clearing as much endgame content as possible then you want people who are devoted enough to get to that specific area. Having anyone else in the Guild would just be swimming upstream. its basic Min Maxing, If i was going to make a Hardcore Raiding guild i would remove anyone without Time or Interest in actually Raiding, Or i would specifically tell them that you WONT be getting into a raid due to the unstableness of your schedual. This isn't a thing of selfishness. If i have to organize a raid and i get 10 people, then suddenly one person says "crap guys i gotta leave me kid needs X" Suddenly the nights over not just for that one person but for the 9 others unless you can pull a rabbit out of a hat.
Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I think it's a big issue.
My sister and her husband are big gamers. I'm entirely convinced that my two nephews have suffered for it. The oldest one (now 5) is severely unsocialized, talking skills are weak, extremely emotionally labile, cannot handle the crowds and noise of his kindergarden class, just sits in the corner and cries. He has now been referred to a special school with more appropriate therapists.
However my sister and her husband would basically just ignore him while they played on their games. Oh he was fed and changed regularly but there was no socialization and it shows.
Does he have learning disabilities, yes. Could they be from something other than the lack of socialization? Possibly. Did the lack of socialiation impact them? Absolutely.
Talking to her about this is... touchy and we try to focus more on going forward rather than "look at what happened."
His little brother (3 years old) is far more developed socially and emotionally than the older brother, possibly just because he had an older brother to play with during these formative years.
edit - I know a somewhat different angle than you expressed. But real lives can definately be impacted from them.
edit 2 - interestingly enough the federal court here in Canada just ruled on this. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/court-says-employers-must-accommodate-staffs-child-care-requests/article8288899/
This entire idea is pretty absurd. To single out mom's with kids is kinda crazy. If you have strict attendance policies then just deny people based solely on that. You don't need to go out and stereotype sections of the population.
Also this entire mindset of game > RL is one of the reasons I no longer participate in hardcore endgame guilds. I just don't have the time or patience and honestly some punk 20 year old living with mom getting angry cause I want to spend time with my kid or wife is something I won't put up with. Even when I did do some hardcore guilding, I've never felt the need to have any more reason than "I didn't feel like raiding tonight" to not show up for something honestly. If it's something with the kid or wife I will drop the game without a second thought. Do I prefer to limit how often that occurs, of course, but your toon getting some more epeen is not more important than my family.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think it's a big issue. My sister and her husband are big gamers. I'm entirely convinced that my two nephews have suffered for it. The oldest one (now 5) is severely unsocialized, talking skills are weak, extremely emotionally labile, cannot handle the crowds and noise of his kindergarden class, just sits in the corner and cries. He has now been referred to a special school with more appropriate therapists. However my sister and her husband would basically just ignore him while they played on their games. Oh he was fed and changed regularly but there was no socialization and it shows. Does he have learning disabilities, yes. Could they be from something other than the lack of socialization? Possibly. Did the lack of socialiation impact them? Absolutely. Talking to her about this is... touchy and we try to focus more on going forward rather than "look at what happened." His little brother (3 years old) is far more developed socially and emotionally than the older brother, possibly just because he had an older brother to play with during these formative years. edit - I know a somewhat different angle than you expressed. But real lives can definately be impacted from them.
Its absolutely damaging for a child to be ignored by their parents for hours as a time. A child may be well fed etc, but what exactly is that child learning from seeing their parents 'ignore them'. And i know from experience while raiding you are 100% focused on the raid and interruptions tend to irritate. Its just unhealthy and selfish and I would suggest a form of passive abuse not a hell of a lot different from having parents hooked on drugs.
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It is a free world. You guild is free to decide the guidelines of membership. There is no legal regulation. You can be as discriminitive as you like.
OTOH, moms with little kids are free to enjoy their entertainment. There is no need for them to put anything else before their kids. There are always guilds that will accept almost anyone.
Personally i find the idea of trying to convince what others should or should not do laughable. Just decide whether to associate with them, and let them live their life.
Originally posted by eyelolled I think that is the problem with raiding. As a father, I can say that there isn't a person on this earth that is more important than my kids. If someone wants me to put them before my kids, they can kiss my ass. I don't want to be the guy that everyone is waiting on, and I avoid putting myself into that situation as much as possible. However, when it comes down to it, if my kids wants my attention (notice I didn't use the term need) then they get it. The only problem I see with your viewpoint, is that it assumes there is a difference between mothers and fathers.
Hey look something we both agree on! Guess that means the world's going to end.
Every and I mean every fucking guild I've ever been in that imploded due to drama, have always been due to someone's hurt feelings over raiding. Drops, schedule, build, personal life vs guild commitment, etc. In my opinion every serious raider is a ticking time bomb. Excluding an entire group of people from joining your guild over the actions of a few seems rather delusional.
If you dont do stupid things while youre young, youll have nothing to smile about when youre old.
Originally posted by k11keeper This entire idea is pretty absurd. To single out mom's with kids is kinda crazy. If you have strict attendance policies then just deny people based solely on that. You don't need to go out and stereotype sections of the population. Also this entire mindset of game > RL is one of the reasons I no longer participate in hardcore endgame guilds. I just don't have the time or patience and honestly some punk 20 year old living with mom getting angry cause I want to spend time with my kid or wife is something I won't put up with. Even when I did do some hardcore guilding, I've never felt the need to have any more reason than "I didn't feel like raiding tonight" to not show up for something honestly. If it's something with the kid or wife I will drop the game without a second thought. Do I prefer to limit how often that occurs, of course, but your toon getting some more epeen is not more important than my family.
I can agree with that ideal, Honestly i can agree with most ideals when it comes to gaming. However its based on the end result for who you want, Kinda like a risk factor. Outfitting a hardcore guild with Casual players wont get anywhere, Sure i may get a stigma from other groups however, im aiming towards a specific end goal. If i don't think your can fit into that setting then i wont accept you.
That being said just so people know im not part of a hardcore Guild anymore, i sit as a casual progression who does stuff when we have the people nessessary.
It doesn't matter whether you're fair or not. It's your guild to do with as you please. Just be aware that some members might move on, but then they probably weren't a best fit for you anyway.
This is why I'm in adult guilds that have figured out how to game and have children.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Im so stunned by the OP, I dont even know what to say.
Originally posted by CalmOceans You think we're unfair if we deny applicants just on the basis of being a mom with child, companies do this, why can't we?
You can deny applicants for any silly-buggers reason you want to.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Rayshe Originally posted by k11keeper
That being said just so people know im not part of a hardcore Guild anymore, i sit as a casual progression who does stuff when we have the people nessessary.
I'm not really saying to outfit hardcore guilds with casuals that would be pretty silly. In the OPs situation it's perfectly legitimate not allowing people in that can't meet your schedule requirements. What I'm more saying is the reason for missing the shedule shouldn't matter and stereotyping a group as a time bomb waiting to happen isn't cool. It should be solely about whether you can make it to stuff or not. The guild really has no need to know whether or not I'm a father, mother, husband, wife or just a flake who skips out on stuff all the time for no apparent reason. I'm either there or not that's all you need to be concerned with.
Why is it just mom's the op is mad at. What about single dad's who have the kids. It happens I got a friend who got custody becasue his wife was a crack head.
I can understand rules, but to come out and say mothers have kids and they have short fuses, it jsut wrong.
I know mothers who have long fuses, my wfie for an example. If anything goes wrong I will be told, your daughter and that is my clue to go fix the situation as I see fit.
I will say this family first, work second and raiding last. And if my raid leader don't like that, well he can replace me. Raiding is not the end all be all of the world. I not went to raids becasue of family issues, becasue I did not feel like putting up with a certain person who was going to be on the raid, and sometimes just becasue I needed some time just for me.
I jsut thing the op generalized and is picking on one type of person, when in all actualy I think he/she has totaly missed the point.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Originally posted by k11keeper Originally posted by Rayshe Originally posted by k11keeper
If a guild intends to have 10 people focus for 100% of the time for x hour blocks you as a parent cannot and should not be able to guarantee that. When a parent goes afk for 10 minutes that affects 9 other real people. There is a time when you have to realise you cannot have your cake and eat it. Seems reasonable at hte very least you should give the guild the option to consider that your children will come first at times.
This applies to moms and dads equally.
The way I see it, guild participation is a priviledge, not a right.
It's your organization, run it as you see fit.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Don't most guild applications ask for scheduling availablity? Unless someone is actively deceving in the application, this will come up almost for sure.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Bladestrom
OH i know, we are basically making the same point i understand that.
I mainly Defending the First Post without useing words that would make people jump up and down screaming sexist things (luckly it hasnt happened that badly yet) as we can agree the Thread can basically go down as "Am i forced to accept somone even though i know they will be a problem eventually" Which is why i gave the answer.
1, Dont accept them, Maybe gain a stigma because of who you accept or refuse to accept.
2. accept them but clearly say they will not be Raiding because they are a bomb waiting to go off.
I can see both sides of the discussion here.
Being on a hardcore raiding guild takes time and dedication (I'm not going on whether it's worth it because it's not relevant and ultimately it's a personal choice for everyone). If you can't give both for whatever reason, be it a baby, be it work, be it studies, be it RL or anything else, then a hardcore raiding guild is not for you, period. It's not fair for the rest of the guild that want to do as much as possible as fast as possible when they have to continuously wait for someone, and it's not fair for yourself to go trough the trouble of trying to keep up and the bad experience of being kicked if you can't, and in the case of a baby, not fair for him to have a parent trying to take care of him as fast as possible so he can get back to the raid, so I don't think you're particularly unfair there.
That said, don't really see the point of creating a needlessly inflamatory thread about it in the first place. No idea what experiences or problem the OP had that drove him/her to create it, but I'd say, for example, a title like "if you have a young child, a raiding guild is not for you" is much more relevant to the discussion in it than just calling mothers of young children "ticking time bombs", and of course there's always what you say and how you say it... for example, it's not the same saying "sorry, we need someone that can dedicate more time to the game than you can at the moment" than "you must put the game before your child"... of course any parent will flip out at the second one.
I've never been part of a hardcore raiding guild, though... the closest I've been was when we were weekly raiding karazhan in WoW back during TBC, and we had a couple with young kids that were regulars. Sometimes when it was late at night both would come, but with the understanding that one might have to leave in a hurry if the baby woke up, other times if the baby was awake they would take turns playing (and other times would even play with the baby... she loved playing "horsie".. AKA, running around WoW with her mother's char mounted in a horse), and while I never raided hardcore, I did try to do at least 1 or 2 dungeons run a night or more on weekends, but after my baby was born I've become a much more solo players (which is probably why I'm loving GW2 so much), and usually anytime I go do a dungeon for the first time (rare) first thing I ask is "how long will it take?" and warn that the baby is sleeping and might have to leave if it wakes up, but he usually doesn't. Of course it helps that I'm in a guild that mostly caters to the older players lifestyle..
What can men do against such reckless hate?
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
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