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Inconvenience is the Key

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Cecropia

    LOL.

    No, choice is not always good. If I'm in a big open world with hardly anyone in it (because everyone is teleporting) that takes away much of what makes a world interesting and fun; other players.

     

    That's your problem.  You only have control over yourself.  You cannot force anyone else to do what you want them to, just to benefit you.  Your choices and actions have consequences.  Deal with them like an adult.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    No. Read my post above this one. I just don't want them all lobby games like you constantly ask for. I recall you making a thread asking why even have a world and saying why not make them instanced and lobby games. Goes against your whole sudden "choice" movement.

    He doesn't  constantly ask for anything, and what you want or don't want is irrelevant, it only depends on what games bring the most money to the developers.  That is all that matters.  If you can convince a developer to make the perfect game for you, more power to you.  Just stop acting like somehow, you *DESERVE* your perfect game, just because you want it.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    No. Read my post above this one. I just don't want them all lobby games like you constantly ask for. I recall you making a thread asking why even have a world and saying why not make them instanced and lobby games. Goes against your whole sudden "choice" movement.

    He doesn't  constantly ask for anything, and what you want or don't want is irrelevant, it only depends on what games bring the most money to the developers.  That is all that matters.  If you can convince a developer to make the perfect game for you, more power to you.  Just stop acting like somehow, you *DESERVE* your perfect game, just because you want it.

    LOL Ok...

    And my apologies...I shouldn't dare mention the possibilities of ONE MMORPG that isn't like the rest, how SELFISH of me.

    I don't see how commenting on items that would be nice to see in an MMORPG, or how to incorporate both new and old into one are acting like I deserve one that way. It's commenting...it's brainstorming, it's hoping, it's DISCUSSION.

    Sadly you are right, it's what makes money...and feeding the currents self-entitlement ego's and impatience is what brings that money. Make me the hero, give me rewards often, make it quick and easy fun is the "in" thing. You all like that great, but it is not my thing, nor a bunch of other people's on these forums if you bother looking through and actually reading comments before posting.

    Well, I shouldn't say it isn't my thing..just not in a MMORPG's. I play console games or PC FPS games for that stuff mentioned above...hence, why they are a different genre (And before the usual comments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre - notice categories...as FPS, RPG's, Sports games are all games, but different catagories/genre's of games).

     

     

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

    Why should anyone just stop and chat for no reason with a complete stranger that you probably have nothing in common with?  You seem to think this is something that ought to happen all the time.  Why?

    Like many here...you ASSUME and read far too literally into a post. It's a friggin example in the name of all that is holy. He said people can stop and chat anytime if they wish. What I am saying is how often do you see people stop to simply chat in an MMORPG these days (Mainly due to how they are built). Even if they know one another. It is rare...because people are in too big of a hurry to get that next shiney or title to be #1 on the stat boards or their server.

    I never said I think this is something that should happen all the time ffs. Again....assumption and putting words in my mouth. But the ability to do so should always be there if the player wishes to engage in conversations.

    And how would you know if you have anything in common with a player unless you....you guessed it, actually talk to them! Amazing how that works huh.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,284Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.

    Why should anyone just stop and chat for no reason with a complete stranger that you probably have nothing in common with?  You seem to think this is something that ought to happen all the time.  Why?

    Like many here...you ASSUME and read far too literally into a post. It's a friggin example in the name of all tha is holy. He said people can stop and chat anytime if they wish. What I am saying is how often do you see people stop to simply chat in an MMORPG these days (Mainly due to how they are built). Even if they know one another. It is rare...because people are in too big of a hurry to get that next shiney or title to be #1 on the stat boards or their server.

    I never said I think this is something that should happen all the time ffs. Again....assumption and putting words in my mouth. But the ability to do so should always be there if the player wishes to engage in conversations.

    And how would you know if you have anything in common with a player unless you....you guessed it, actually talk to them! Amazing how that works huh.

    Your right to a degree. What I've found though is that if there are enough connecting systems, people will talk, make friends, and enimies. Forgive me, but I'm going to use examples from AoW.

     

    Team practice - 10 people come together and stay together for about 30 minutes working on a simple goal that benifits all. 

    Cart robbing - I bump into fellow bandits all the time. We team and talk to be more efficiant. Even the ones that get robbed sometimes become friends

    Crafting - No man is an island you need stuff from other people. You end up working with those people when situations pop up daily.

     

    It's kinda crazy I form new relationships everyday. I'm not talking about just adding people to your friends list either. I'm talking about getting to know each other through working for mutal goals. 

     

    To the point of the thread. If I do not need anyone, or the reward is the same as if I were alone, due to convenience/streamlining the world becomes a dead lifeless place. 

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    Like many here...you ASSUME and read far too literally into a post. It's a friggin example in the name of all that is holy. He said people can stop and chat anytime if they wish. What I am saying is how often do you see people stop to simply chat in an MMORPG these days (Mainly due to how they are built). Even if they know one another. It is rare...because people are in too big of a hurry to get that next shiney or title to be #1 on the stat boards or their server.

    I never said I think this is something that should happen all the time ffs. Again....assumption and putting words in my mouth. But the ability to do so should always be there if the player wishes to engage in conversations.

    And how would you know if you have anything in common with a player unless you....you guessed it, actually talk to them! Amazing how that works huh.

    No, I simply asked a question.  For what purpose should any of those people just stop and chat with a random person they walk by?  You assert that it ought to happen, presumably, you complain that it rarely ever happens, my question to you is, *WHY* should it happen?  Ever?  I can't remember the last time I just stopped a random person on the street to talk.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that it's never happened in my entire lifetime.  Why should it happen in a game?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    Like many here...you ASSUME and read far too literally into a post. It's a friggin example in the name of all that is holy. He said people can stop and chat anytime if they wish. What I am saying is how often do you see people stop to simply chat in an MMORPG these days (Mainly due to how they are built). Even if they know one another. It is rare...because people are in too big of a hurry to get that next shiney or title to be #1 on the stat boards or their server.

    I never said I think this is something that should happen all the time ffs. Again....assumption and putting words in my mouth. But the ability to do so should always be there if the player wishes to engage in conversations.

    And how would you know if you have anything in common with a player unless you....you guessed it, actually talk to them! Amazing how that works huh.

    No, I simply asked a question.  For what purpose should any of those people just stop and chat with a random person they walk by?  You assert that it ought to happen, presumably, you complain that it rarely ever happens, my question to you is, *WHY* should it happen?  Ever?  I can't remember the last time I just stopped a random person on the street to talk.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that it's never happened in my entire lifetime.  Why should it happen in a game?

    I NEVER asserted it should happen. YET AGAIN...if people stop and talk, they stop and talk. If they don't, fine. How is this in any ways pushing that it should happen?

    But the ability to just stop and talk should never be taken out of MMORPG's all together. That's it, clear and cut what I mean, and what I have said. Absorb that and understand so I don't need to repeat myself.

    You must be a social recluse. I have stopped and talked to people in the real world. Depends on the situation, but I have done it and had quite pleasant conversations. But we aren't discussing the real world...but rather the virtual world.

    Believe it or not, people stopped and talked back in EQ. Or would actually stop to help a stranger..sometimes ending in an exchange of thanks, or a conversation..maybe even a friendship...but it happened. If you rather pass everyone by without a word like a large majority of players to get your next shiney...fine. But again...that doesn't mean the ability to do so shouldn't be available to others who enjoy the interaction.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Cephus404
     

    I NEVER asserted it should happen. YET AGAIN...if people stop and talk, they stop and talk. If they don't, fine. How is this in any ways pushing that it should happen?

    But the ability to just stop and talk should never be taken out of MMORPG's all together. That's it, clear and cut what I mean, and what I have said. Absorb that and understand so I don't need to repeat myself.

    You must be a social recluse. I have stopped and talked to people in the real world. Depends on the situation, but I have done it and had quite pleasant conversations. But we aren't discussing the real world...but rather the virtual world.

    Believe it or not, people stopped and talked back in EQ. Or would actually stop to help a stranger..sometimes ending in an exchange of thanks, or a conversation..maybe even a friendship...but it happened. If you rather pass everyone by without a word like a large majority of players to get your next shiney...fine. But again...that doesn't mean the ability to do so shouldn't be available to others who enjoy the interaction.

    Drunken strangers approach and talk to me all the time. I don't know what quality in me makes them do this.  Do I look friendly or what? It is puzzling and I don't like it. Dozens of people around in a public place, why the hell did they choose me to talk to? I'm only passing by minding my own business just like everyone else!

    Honestly, I don't want to share your troubles. I'm not a priest, bartender, not your therapist and I don't know you. People talk to strangers too often imo.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Easymode and Easytravel = Early Endgame.

    So if that's what you want then by all means argue for the least "inconvenience". Oh and you do know that only about 10% of the development cycle of a MMO is spent on end game?

    Welcome to the endgame Schmitt Box we made for you content locusts with 10% of our time:

     

    [ You Are Here ]

     

    Enjoy! :)

    Easy gameplay and easy travel are independent. There is little inconvience in a game like D3, but the end game (inferno) is challenging.

    And there is obviously no easy mode for pvp. So it is perfect possible to have a challenging game without much inconvenience.

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    Bit of a stretch there.

    Easy PVP is "dueling on the road", individual combats, ignoring the rest of what's happening in the greater battle around you. Tactical combat, as preferred to strategic.

    Afraid that kind of doofus is not solely an instance problem. There always have been plenty of them "world" PVP too.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    Easymode is ganking someone in open world. Easymode is zerging/blob warfare. The more people involved, the less you have to do and the easier it is.

    I've seen the alternatives and I'm not impressed. I find it is infinitely more challenging fighting on equal footing against someone who is willing to fight back.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    Easymode is ganking someone in open world. Easymode is zerging/blob warfare. The more people involved, the less you have to do and the easier it is.

    I've seen the alternatives and I'm not impressed. I find it is infinitely more challenging fighting on equal footing against someone who is willing to fight back.

    Only morons roll on a PvP server without being willing to fight back. Love when people use the "willing to fight back" argument to defend morons. 

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,648Member Uncommon

    I am not sure that convienience is the issue as much as non dependant gameplay, which is a different thing really.

    I like the convienience of, say, fast travel. But then we had that back in '99 in EQ as well, though you probably had to interact with someone else in the game to get one rather then clicking on an NPC.

    Some convienience design can obviously be bad though in terms of community building... selling from your backpack in the field without entering a social hub for example.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Only morons roll on a PvP server without being willing to fight back. Love when people use the "willing to fight back" argument to defend morons. 

    Oh the unwillingness to fight back may also come from the fact that you may be outnumbered 5:1 or powerlevel is significantly lower than your opponents. Yeah, they are morons for not bringing enough friends or grinding hard enough.

    Everyone knows how brave such "PvPers" are. Especially when there's harsh death penalty.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • MdpatsMdpats Peekskill, NYPosts: 176Member
    This is one of the reason's why I'm loving Eve Online.  While new to the game, I find upgrading your ship, getting more ships and such along with skill upgrades which occur in real time is something nice.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    what is your ranking on LOL? Instanced pvp is easy? Have you seen the pros in Korea? Instanced e-sport is much harder than any open world stuff.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    And my apologies...I shouldn't dare mention the possibilities of ONE MMORPG that isn't like the rest, how SELFISH of me.

     

     

    You can mention it. But don't act like the devs is obligated to implement that for you.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by firefly2003

    A MMORPG is a time commitment in itself if you don't have time to commit why should a game be designed around a person who play 30 min up to 8 hours a week? Then it isn't a MMO anymore it's a co-op with a lobby chat all for those people who can't be bothered to give up that reality show for the week to put a lil time into a game.

     

    Because there is where your customer is?

    You have it reverse. MMO devs want the larger market. Not the other way around. If you want customers, design the game their way.

    I don't ask MMOs to become lobby games .. but i will give them a look, and may be some business if they do so.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    And my apologies...I shouldn't dare mention the possibilities of ONE MMORPG that isn't like the rest, how SELFISH of me.

     

     

    You can mention it. But don't act like the devs is obligated to implement that for you.

    And yet again...where did I say they are obligated to give it to me? Just keep stuffing words in my mouth to fit your argument Nariu.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    Easymode is ganking someone in open world. Easymode is zerging/blob warfare. The more people involved, the less you have to do and the easier it is.

    I've seen the alternatives and I'm not impressed. I find it is infinitely more challenging fighting on equal footing against someone who is willing to fight back.

    Although not a big PvPer, this is one time I completely agree with Q. Most PvPers talk a big game, but are quick to tuck tail and run if it's an even fight, or the death penatly is harsh as Q said.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

    Easymode is ganking someone in open world. Easymode is zerging/blob warfare. The more people involved, the less you have to do and the easier it is.

    I've seen the alternatives and I'm not impressed. I find it is infinitely more challenging fighting on equal footing against someone who is willing to fight back.

    Although not a big PvPer, this is one time I completely agree with Q. Most PvPers talk a big game, but are quick to tuck tail and run if it's an even fight, or the death penatly is harsh as Q said.

    Now you understand why I don't like PvP. It's essentially a bunch of players talking themselves up and then using cheap tactics, being very lucky on critical hits, or bailing on you. I don't mind the bailing part because that's part of the PvP experience, it's the oversized egos that are the worst to deal with. No matter the outcome, you will hear either "Wasn't ready yet, jerk", "OMG HAXOR", "Haha I beat you cause I am so awesome and you suck", or "I knew you would lose to me because you aren't as skilled as I am" from the opponent.  I'd imagine PvP on a strict RP only server would be great because people would have to follow through with their character.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    I NEVER asserted it should happen. YET AGAIN...if people stop and talk, they stop and talk. If they don't, fine. How is this in any ways pushing that it should happen?

    But the ability to just stop and talk should never be taken out of MMORPG's all together. That's it, clear and cut what I mean, and what I have said. Absorb that and understand so I don't need to repeat myself.

    You must be a social recluse. I have stopped and talked to people in the real world. Depends on the situation, but I have done it and had quite pleasant conversations. But we aren't discussing the real world...but rather the virtual world.

    Believe it or not, people stopped and talked back in EQ. Or would actually stop to help a stranger..sometimes ending in an exchange of thanks, or a conversation..maybe even a friendship...but it happened. If you rather pass everyone by without a word like a large majority of players to get your next shiney...fine. But again...that doesn't mean the ability to do so shouldn't be available to others who enjoy the interaction.

    You keep changing your argument. You absolutely have asserted that talking to random strangers should happen, yet you still can't come up with a good reason for it.  Then you start talking about the ability to talk to people being taken away?  Name one MMO that has removed the ability to speak in public or talk in a chat channel.  Just one.  I have no idea what fantasy world you live in where you think any of this is being taken away, there is a difference between not being able to do a thing and not having any interest in doing a thing.  You just don't seem to understand that difference.

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    And my apologies...I shouldn't dare mention the possibilities of ONE MMORPG that isn't like the rest, how SELFISH of me.

     

     

    You can mention it. But don't act like the devs is obligated to implement that for you.

    Ding ding ding ding ding.  We have a winnah!

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    I NEVER asserted it should happen. YET AGAIN...if people stop and talk, they stop and talk. If they don't, fine. How is this in any ways pushing that it should happen?

    But the ability to just stop and talk should never be taken out of MMORPG's all together. That's it, clear and cut what I mean, and what I have said. Absorb that and understand so I don't need to repeat myself.

    You must be a social recluse. I have stopped and talked to people in the real world. Depends on the situation, but I have done it and had quite pleasant conversations. But we aren't discussing the real world...but rather the virtual world.

    Believe it or not, people stopped and talked back in EQ. Or would actually stop to help a stranger..sometimes ending in an exchange of thanks, or a conversation..maybe even a friendship...but it happened. If you rather pass everyone by without a word like a large majority of players to get your next shiney...fine. But again...that doesn't mean the ability to do so shouldn't be available to others who enjoy the interaction.

    You keep changing your argument. You absolutely have asserted that talking to random strangers should happen, yet you still can't come up with a good reason for it.  Then you start talking about the ability to talk to people being taken away?  Name one MMO that has removed the ability to speak in public or talk in a chat channel.  Just one.  I have no idea what fantasy world you live in where you think any of this is being taken away, there is a difference between not being able to do a thing and not having any interest in doing a thing.  You just don't seem to understand that difference.

    FFS...if you are not going to actually read my posts and comprend them, then I am wasting my time trying to hold intelligent conversation with you. Go read them...and actually think about what I said and the context of them. (Responses between Popori, Nariu and I pages 18 and 19).

    This would be much easier to explain face to face....as it's easy to misunderstand things in a forum...this a case in point. Have fun talking to yourself from here on out, as I am growing tired of repeating myself.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rossboss
     

    Now you understand why I don't like PvP. It's essentially a bunch of players talking themselves up and then using cheap tactics, being very lucky on critical hits, or bailing on you. I don't mind the bailing part because that's part of the PvP experience, it's the oversized egos that are the worst to deal with. No matter the outcome, you will hear either "Wasn't ready yet, jerk", "OMG HAXOR", "Haha I beat you cause I am so awesome and you suck", or "I knew you would lose to me because you aren't as skilled as I am" from the opponent.  I'd imagine PvP on a strict RP only server would be great because people would have to follow through with their character.

    Play a e-sport game like LOL .. there is no excuse, or at least none that will stick.

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