This thread is pointless. It's obvious what happened, developers saw what was popular, followed in step and produced similar games. People buy into it, developers make their money further more proving (in numbers and profit) that what they developed is successful (business wise, short term).
Whatever, it is changing. There will be a lot of interesting games coming out within the next 3 years with stuff we are asking for now..it takes time to create a game and world of this magnitude.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
What is it about Sandbox that players feel is so vastly different than what they feel is the more" linear or hand holding" MMORPG?
It's the difference between starting the day with an unread book vs an unwritten journal.
That's a pretty accurate description.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Aeonblades Because sandbox MMO's don't sell as well and have crappy player retention, sans a few good examples. Also, devs like to meddle with crap they don't need to in sandbox MMOs and it pisses people off more often than making them happy.
Nonsense. Former triple A MMO's like SWG, AC 1 had excellent retention and good sub. numbers for pre-WoW era. But you do have a point. Sandbox MMOs are not as profitable because it takes more development effort to make a proper sandbox MMO and the initial box sales is less (but retention higher).
So in the current era of quick, short time profit, ThemeParks dominate the triple A MMO market. Their revenue is not all that different from single player games, with the added bonus of sub. fees and then future F2P conversion to squeeze the last cent out of it.
MMO's are big bussiness now, which means creating a good solid game with longetivity is secondary to high profit.
Not from my word. From the word of developer of SWG, they said they are leaking sub to Wow in the mass.
Time have changed, before you only have a few mmorpg to choose from, there are just so many more competition now.
That being said there is a Eve clone. Just show game studio do copy what works. Game studio need something to copy period.
If just 1 game company can show how to produce a sandbox game "that works", I'm sure other will follow and copy.
Originally posted by Aeonblades Because sandbox MMO's don't sell as well and have crappy player retention, sans a few good examples. Also, devs like to meddle with crap they don't need to in sandbox MMOs and it pisses people off more often than making them happy.
You mean like the last dozen themepark MMOG's that all could not survive more than 6-12 Month before they went F2P?
I think it is pretty clear that the current crap they sell as MMOG's is not doing better at all. The only long running MMOG's are either Sandbox like EvE, UO or Classics like FFXI, DAoC or Everquest.
The one and only Themepark that survived is WoW and no one really knows why, since its as bad as the rest of the crap it spawned.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
^ ya I mean when you say only thing profitable is sandbox games like EvE, UO, you might want to tell me what other sandbox games you think is doing that well.
And I think UO only had like 200k players or something. When those themepark game get down from millions to 200k players people start calling them a failure and you call UO a success.
And when company is pumping out themepark games like no tomorrow, you can understand why they arn't doing so well. That probably explains why only those classic games are consider successful. Because they got no competition. While nowaday there are so many.
I think the mmorpg market is never that big to sustain that many games. The most profitable mmropg in recent history beside wow have all been asian games. Not that those asian games are any great, but when the asian market is that much bigger than western market they can sustain more games.
I think you have played a sandbox or two in the past, and then there is no going back to themeparks.
The restrictions. linearity, the cookiecutting, the predictability, the feeling of being dragged on a leash are al too famiiar.
But its an easy concept and draws alot of casual players.
Now, im a former swg player and miss the sandbox to the extent that i have stopped playing MMO´s and im currenty trying out Second Life (!). Now, thats a sandbox for ya, but it doesnt have any game systems.
The Repopulation is probably our only hope at this time.
^ ya I mean when you say only thing profitable is sandbox games like EvE, UO, you might want to tell me what other sandbox games you think is doing that well.
And I think UO only had like 200k players or something. When those themepark game get down from millions to 200k players people start calling them a failure and you call UO a success.
Games that sell well initially, like GW2, TERA, SWTOR or TSW sell a million copies. That is $50 million revenue not PROFIT to cover development cost plus ongoing cost of staff, servers and development. Even if they sell more this will barely cover their initial costs.
If a game like UO or FFXI runs for 10 years with an average of 500k players and $15 subscription they make $900 million on subscriptions alone, not counting the multitude of expaninson sales and the original box sales.
That my friend is the difference of success and failure.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
^ ya I mean when you say only thing profitable is sandbox games like EvE, UO, you might want to tell me what other sandbox games you think is doing that well.
And I think UO only had like 200k players or something. When those themepark game get down from millions to 200k players people start calling them a failure and you call UO a success.
Games that sell well initially, like GW2, TERA, SWTOR or TSW sell a million copies. That is $50 million revenue not PROFIT to cover development cost plus ongoing cost of staff, servers and development. Even if they sell more this will barely cover their initial costs.
If a game like UO or FFXI runs for 10 years with an average of 500k players and $15 subscription they make $900 million on subscriptions alone, not counting the multitude of expaninson sales and the original box sales.
That my friend is the difference of success and failure.
You mean UO and FFXI have 500k players now? And what does FFXI have to do with sandbox. Lineage have 1 million player too. Those are classic games. For those people who dont' like to switch game. I mean wow have 10 million players too. You know FFXI probably have that many players because it is more global, since western players have shorter "attention span". Kind of like lineage, without all those asian players, it probably won't keep going.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
i can't really say i blame them.
That is the reality. Despise all its flaws and patches, remember it is the players who stopped playing UO, SWG.
People are never satisfied. Why are people still playing wow or eve or lineage. I dont' know. But must be some magic that keeps people from playing that long.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
i can't really say i blame them.
Summation: I don't care either way but thought I could throw in a scathing rebuttal to your whining.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
i can't really say i blame them.
That is the reality. Despise all its flaws and patches, remember it is the players who stopped playing UO, SWG.
People are never satisfied. Why are people still playing wow or eve or lineage. I dont' know. But must be some magic that keeps people from playing that long.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
i can't really say i blame them.
That is the reality. Despise all its flaws and patches, remember it is the players who stopped playing UO, SWG.
People are never satisfied. Why are people still playing wow or eve or lineage. I dont' know. But must be some magic that keeps people from playing that long.
The market works. Supply and demand.
True, the market works. However I do see alot of demand for sandboxes without the supply. Eve seems successful but many RPG'ers don't care for a space game (at least I don't). There is Ultima which is old, Mortal which is generally described as terrible and a few low budget games that have faithful yet small followings. The next couple of years will illustrate whether or not the demand really exists, I think. There are some fairly hyped games with sandbox features coming out such as Greed Monger, Pathfinder, ArcheAge, The Repop, Black Desert, Embers of Caerus, Star Citizen, etc.
Personally I can't wait to see whether the market shifts. The gamer social entity is kind of fun to watch :P
Regardless of how Greed Monger actually turns out I think their mission statement is the most basic description of what a sandobox is: Plop everyone down with absolutely nothing except for basic skills and let everyone go. I think that Kickstarter kind of hurts that since you can basically buy advantages right out of the box but who knows.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
i can't really say i blame them.
That is the reality. Despise all its flaws and patches, remember it is the players who stopped playing UO, SWG.
People are never satisfied. Why are people still playing wow or eve or lineage. I dont' know. But must be some magic that keeps people from playing that long.
The market works. Supply and demand.
True, the market works. However I do see alot of demand for sandboxes without the supply. Eve seems successful but many RPG'ers don't care for a space game (at least I don't). There is Ultima which is old, Mortal which is generally described as terrible and a few low budget games that have faithful yet small followings. The next couple of years will illustrate whether or not the demand really exists, I think. There are some fairly hyped games with sandbox features coming out such as Greed Monger, Pathfinder, ArcheAge, The Repop, Black Desert, Embers of Caerus, Star Citizen, etc.
Personally I can't wait to see whether the market shifts. The gamer social entity is kind of fun to watch :P
Regardless of how Greed Monger actually turns out I think their mission statement is the most basic description of what a sandobox is: Plop everyone down with absolutely nothing except for basic skills and let everyone go. I think that Kickstarter kind of hurts that since you can basically buy advantages right out of the box but who knows.
where? sandbox was tried in the past (UO, EQ to some extent ... Darkfall ....).
And like you say, there are quite a few sandbox coming out .. the market will adjust based on what happen to them.
True, the market works. However I do see alot of demand for sandboxes without the supply. Eve seems successful but many RPG'ers don't care for a space game (at least I don't). There is Ultima which is old, Mortal which is generally described as terrible and a few low budget games that have faithful yet small followings. The next couple of years will illustrate whether or not the demand really exists, I think. There are some fairly hyped games with sandbox features coming out such as Greed Monger, Pathfinder, ArcheAge, The Repop, Black Desert, Embers of Caerus, Star Citizen, etc.
Personally I can't wait to see whether the market shifts. The gamer social entity is kind of fun to watch :P
Regardless of how Greed Monger actually turns out I think their mission statement is the most basic description of what a sandobox is: Plop everyone down with absolutely nothing except for basic skills and let everyone go. I think that Kickstarter kind of hurts that since you can basically buy advantages right out of the box but who knows.
where? sandbox was tried in the past (UO, EQ to some extent ... Darkfall ....).
And like you say, there are quite a few sandbox coming out .. the market will adjust based on what happen to them.
The really clear trend is the rise of MOBA.
I peruse a few forums and there seems to be a large player base that used to play the games you mentioned but do so no longer. Not because they are bad games but because they are OLD games ( I didn't even mention DF because that is failing as we speak). Obviously the vast majority of gamers aren't forum posters but there are alot of silent people that come here and other places that read some of the columns and info and perhaps take away some sort of excitement about games where you build the world, where it's not built already. I will bet you a kiss under the mistletoe that one or two of those games I mentioned in my previous post become successful games (photo first please). There is a hole in the market that they will fill.
How successful remains to be seen. I for one will delve into as many as I can.
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter If they spent the money they invested in making SWTOR into keep on developing and "fixing" SWG pre cu,, it would have been a huge success.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter If they spent the money they invested in making SWTOR into keep on developing and "fixing" SWG pre cu,, it would have been a huge success.
bleeding subs like pre-cu swg.
If .. if .. if .. that is a lot of monday night quarter backing.
I don't anyone here actually develops a successful MMO.
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter If they spent the money they invested in making SWTOR into keep on developing and "fixing" SWG pre cu,, it would have been a huge success.
bleeding subs like pre-cu swg.
If .. if .. if .. that is a lot of monday night quarter backing.
I don't anyone here actually develops a successful MMO.
I think his argument is:
a) SWTOR inferior game
b) SWG could have been made into an exceptional game
therefore SWG made into an exceptional game > SWTOR as it came to be.
Also Nariusseldon says all non developers must now leave the forums. We'll get right on that.
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter If they spent the money they invested in making SWTOR into keep on developing and "fixing" SWG pre cu,, it would have been a huge success.
bleeding subs like pre-cu swg.
If .. if .. if .. that is a lot of monday night quarter backing.
I don't anyone here actually develops a successful MMO.
I think his argument is:
a) SWTOR inferior game
b) SWG could have been made into an exceptional game
therefore SWG made into an exceptional game > SWTOR as it came to be.
Also Nariusseldon says all non developers must now leave the forums. We'll get right on that.
nah i just say that we should treat them as monday quarter backs. Why ask them to leave when they provide entertainment?
Originally posted by LoverNoFighter If they spent the money they invested in making SWTOR into keep on developing and "fixing" SWG pre cu,, it would have been a huge success.
bleeding subs like pre-cu swg.
If .. if .. if .. that is a lot of monday night quarter backing.
I don't anyone here actually develops a successful MMO.
I think his argument is:
a) SWTOR inferior game
b) SWG could have been made into an exceptional game
therefore SWG made into an exceptional game > SWTOR as it came to be.
Also Nariusseldon says all non developers must now leave the forums. We'll get right on that.
nah i just say that we should treat them as monday quarter backs. Why ask them to leave when they provide entertainment?
Well I'm a 3rd world dictator. I don't want to see anyone here telling anyone who is not a fearless leader like me talking about what countries should be like for the people to be happy.
Well I'm a 3rd world dictator. I don't want to see anyone here telling anyone who is not a fearless leader like me talking about what countries should be like for the people to be happy.
Why don't you try to impose your will on others and see what happens? It would be fun!
Well I'm a 3rd world dictator. I don't want to see anyone here telling anyone who is not a fearless leader like me talking about what countries should be like for the people to be happy.
Why don't you try to impose your will on others and see what happens? It would be fun!
In all seriousness, if you are a subject matter expert it would serve you better to educate in some way that the reader can absorb rather than try to use the scepter of programming to proclaim lordship.
I don't worship game designers. I play games. If the game sucks I don't care who made it, I'm just unhappy it sucks.
Comments
This thread is pointless. It's obvious what happened, developers saw what was popular, followed in step and produced similar games. People buy into it, developers make their money further more proving (in numbers and profit) that what they developed is successful (business wise, short term).
Whatever, it is changing. There will be a lot of interesting games coming out within the next 3 years with stuff we are asking for now..it takes time to create a game and world of this magnitude.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
That's a pretty accurate description.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not from my word. From the word of developer of SWG, they said they are leaking sub to Wow in the mass.
Time have changed, before you only have a few mmorpg to choose from, there are just so many more competition now.
That being said there is a Eve clone. Just show game studio do copy what works. Game studio need something to copy period.
If just 1 game company can show how to produce a sandbox game "that works", I'm sure other will follow and copy.
You mean like the last dozen themepark MMOG's that all could not survive more than 6-12 Month before they went F2P?
I think it is pretty clear that the current crap they sell as MMOG's is not doing better at all. The only long running MMOG's are either Sandbox like EvE, UO or Classics like FFXI, DAoC or Everquest.
The one and only Themepark that survived is WoW and no one really knows why, since its as bad as the rest of the crap it spawned.
^ ya I mean when you say only thing profitable is sandbox games like EvE, UO, you might want to tell me what other sandbox games you think is doing that well.
And I think UO only had like 200k players or something. When those themepark game get down from millions to 200k players people start calling them a failure and you call UO a success.
And when company is pumping out themepark games like no tomorrow, you can understand why they arn't doing so well. That probably explains why only those classic games are consider successful. Because they got no competition. While nowaday there are so many.
I think the mmorpg market is never that big to sustain that many games. The most profitable mmropg in recent history beside wow have all been asian games. Not that those asian games are any great, but when the asian market is that much bigger than western market they can sustain more games.
Dear OP,
I think you have played a sandbox or two in the past, and then there is no going back to themeparks.
The restrictions. linearity, the cookiecutting, the predictability, the feeling of being dragged on a leash are al too famiiar.
But its an easy concept and draws alot of casual players.
Now, im a former swg player and miss the sandbox to the extent that i have stopped playing MMO´s and im currenty trying out Second Life (!). Now, thats a sandbox for ya, but it doesnt have any game systems.
The Repopulation is probably our only hope at this time.
Games that sell well initially, like GW2, TERA, SWTOR or TSW sell a million copies. That is $50 million revenue not PROFIT to cover development cost plus ongoing cost of staff, servers and development. Even if they sell more this will barely cover their initial costs.
If a game like UO or FFXI runs for 10 years with an average of 500k players and $15 subscription they make $900 million on subscriptions alone, not counting the multitude of expaninson sales and the original box sales.
That my friend is the difference of success and failure.
Play Archeage when it comes out.
End thread.
Sharess Dragonstar - Midgard
Grievance is recruiting.
You mean UO and FFXI have 500k players now? And what does FFXI have to do with sandbox. Lineage have 1 million player too. Those are classic games. For those people who dont' like to switch game. I mean wow have 10 million players too. You know FFXI probably have that many players because it is more global, since western players have shorter "attention span". Kind of like lineage, without all those asian players, it probably won't keep going.
to answer the thread title.
because you were part of a horrible community that was never satisfied with the games back then, just the same as now. eventually, the companies stopped catering to you because they realized they hated you. instead, they make games for people who play for a couple months and then move on with their life.
i can't really say i blame them.
That is the reality. Despise all its flaws and patches, remember it is the players who stopped playing UO, SWG.
People are never satisfied. Why are people still playing wow or eve or lineage. I dont' know. But must be some magic that keeps people from playing that long.
Summation: I don't care either way but thought I could throw in a scathing rebuttal to your whining.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
The market works. Supply and demand.
True, the market works. However I do see alot of demand for sandboxes without the supply. Eve seems successful but many RPG'ers don't care for a space game (at least I don't). There is Ultima which is old, Mortal which is generally described as terrible and a few low budget games that have faithful yet small followings. The next couple of years will illustrate whether or not the demand really exists, I think. There are some fairly hyped games with sandbox features coming out such as Greed Monger, Pathfinder, ArcheAge, The Repop, Black Desert, Embers of Caerus, Star Citizen, etc.
Personally I can't wait to see whether the market shifts. The gamer social entity is kind of fun to watch :P
Regardless of how Greed Monger actually turns out I think their mission statement is the most basic description of what a sandobox is: Plop everyone down with absolutely nothing except for basic skills and let everyone go. I think that Kickstarter kind of hurts that since you can basically buy advantages right out of the box but who knows.
where? sandbox was tried in the past (UO, EQ to some extent ... Darkfall ....).
And like you say, there are quite a few sandbox coming out .. the market will adjust based on what happen to them.
The really clear trend is the rise of MOBA.
I peruse a few forums and there seems to be a large player base that used to play the games you mentioned but do so no longer. Not because they are bad games but because they are OLD games ( I didn't even mention DF because that is failing as we speak). Obviously the vast majority of gamers aren't forum posters but there are alot of silent people that come here and other places that read some of the columns and info and perhaps take away some sort of excitement about games where you build the world, where it's not built already. I will bet you a kiss under the mistletoe that one or two of those games I mentioned in my previous post become successful games (photo first please). There is a hole in the market that they will fill.
How successful remains to be seen. I for one will delve into as many as I can.
bleeding subs like pre-cu swg.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If .. if .. if .. that is a lot of monday night quarter backing.
I don't anyone here actually develops a successful MMO.
I think his argument is:
a) SWTOR inferior game
b) SWG could have been made into an exceptional game
therefore SWG made into an exceptional game > SWTOR as it came to be.
Also Nariusseldon says all non developers must now leave the forums. We'll get right on that.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
nah i just say that we should treat them as monday quarter backs. Why ask them to leave when they provide entertainment?
Well I'm a 3rd world dictator. I don't want to see anyone here telling anyone who is not a fearless leader like me talking about what countries should be like for the people to be happy.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Why don't you try to impose your will on others and see what happens? It would be fun!
In all seriousness, if you are a subject matter expert it would serve you better to educate in some way that the reader can absorb rather than try to use the scepter of programming to proclaim lordship.
I don't worship game designers. I play games. If the game sucks I don't care who made it, I'm just unhappy it sucks.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011