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What right has this game to associate itself either with NWN or D&D in truth?

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  • SoulStainSoulStain Tampa, FLPosts: 202Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by SoulStain
    It has the right...because Cryptic paid for the right.

    I am pretty sure the OP is talking about the right as seen from the fans point of view and not the lawyers and suits.

     

    Yes, exactly.

    I expected these kind of literal responses though I must admit from folks who didn't understand the post I made so I have just been ignoring them.

    Understood completely but the answer still comes out the same. What right do the fans have to control where an ip goes or where it doesnt?.

        ..and why don't we focus our discontent toward the IP owner. If Games Workshop had bothered to do any forum perusing they would see that many do not see Cryptic in a good light. MAybe GW did look about and found what Cryptic does to be acceptable or..even...good/great. (I myself was pissed at their last 2 attempts at MMOS but since both's launch I think CO and STO have developed nicely despite STO being such a violent game.) 

     Anyway, I'd imagine more times than not if IP's were given out according to the majority of its fans we'd see even worse games based on beloved IPs.

    I guess I'm just willing to give the benefit of a doubt  until I play the game.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    To avoid confusion they should've probably name the game Forgotten Realms: Sword Coast North... but if they do that it probably won't sell the game as good, lol

     

    Yes, indeed.

    People seem emotionally attached to this game already (look at some of the responses here in this thread), which i can only put down to them connecting this with the older title or the D&D brand because the game itself looks pretty generic (to me).

    We are seeing the same thing happening with TESO, but I guess that is why they use these licenses in the first place. They bring a certain amount of unquestioning fanatical support with them just by association.

    I guess it also allows them to charge what they are charging for founder's pack etc.

      Ah so in truth your not really out to get information but instead are only out to stir up emotional responses against something you see as wrong. (ie the use of the Neverwinter name in a game you don't see as a spiritual successor to NWN.)

      Well played if thinnly veiled, and alot of of posters took the bait, yes you played them (us?) well

     

    Wow... that's quite some leap...

    No, I am interested in a conversation about the game, it's use of the  ruleset that it is branding itself after, and the ethics of trading on someone else's glory.

    You use the term that actually triggrered this thread in part.. I have seen this named a 'spiritual successor' to NWN elsewhere and that is *exactly* part of what I am asking. Is it?

    (Shall we move this back from personal observations and guesses as to motives and stick to the topic in hand? If you don't like the thread please don't feel pressured to participate)

  • MortisRexMortisRex Columbia, TNPosts: 348Member
    What right did Black Isle have to use the same name as an even earlier game created un the early 90's (an MMO too) by Stormfront Studios?  Black Isle did not create NWN, they didn't even create the first NWN video game. Publishers buy licenses, that's the way things work. That contract gives them every legal right to associate itself with both NWN and D&D unless you're suggesting you have a more vested interest in protecting WoTC's/Hasbro's intellectual property than they do.
  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Honest question with no malice.

    What has this title got to do with either the much loved Black Isle game that a lot of folks are obviously emotionally connecting it with (saw PC Gamer call it the successor to NWN today for example) or D&D (beyond a skin of FR lore)?

    Is it simply doing what TESO is doing and cynically trading off the credibility of  a popular IP while actually having zero to do with it once you get past the brand and the skin of lore?

    If so, is this actually an honest way to do business? It could be seen as a pretty cynical way of manipulating folks?

     

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

     Um it has just as much right to the neverwinter name as NWN did. Its Set in neverwinter in Forgotten realms D&D setting using the D&D 4th edition ruleset.

     

    Can you explain to me how deeply NW uses the 4E ruleset? Is it just a case of sharing a few spell names or whatever, or does it go further then that?

    I only ask because I honestly do not know, but I do know that NWN was built on a solid foundation of the PnP rules.

     Might i suggest you try goggling and reading for yourself?

     

    Sorry, thought this was a discussion forum for asking questions and chatting about stuff... didn't realise I wasn't allowed to offer up questions for discussion...

    Do I take it by this response that you really, in truth, just don't know?

     

    BTW, I did not say NWN used a literal copy of the PnP rules, I said it built on a solid foundation of those rules, and it did.

     Meh some people don't mind being baited as much as others. i for one have never care for those that pretend to play dumb to try and make a point. Guess I fail at internet forum warz 101.

     I know whats been posted which you do as well. You also know that untill game goes into open beta pretty much no one can answer your questions (developers of the game and closed beta testers under NDA being the exception) If finding actual factual information was your goal i pointed out the best way to get it. Discussion on the other hand is cheap and rarely factual.

      

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    What right did Black Isle have to use the same name as an even earlier game created un the early 90's (an MMO too) by Stormfront Studios?  Black Isle did not create NWN, they didn't even create the first NWN video game. Publishers buy licenses, that's the way things work. That contract gives them every legal right to associate itself with both NWN and D&D unless you're suggesting you have a more vested interest in protecting WoTC's/Hasbro's intellectual property than they do.

     

    As answered already, BI's NWN had a very obvious and solid foundation in the D&D ruleset of the time.

    No one has claimed they 'created it', this conversation is not about legal right, and I am obviously not making any silly claims to be protecting anything... lol

    I don't think you have been following this thread very closely... Thanks for the input though.

  • IsawaIsawa Middle 0 Nowhere, ORPosts: 1,051Member
    With a Beta weekend coming soon, I started looking into this game more. From the videos I have watched, the devs are saying this game is lore heavy (they added extra details and story) just for the fans. They also check in with Wizards to go over lore on a regular basis, and Wizards is even modeling some lore/characters from this game as a result. They say the game is based on that later ruleset, but I"m not informed on that and haven't played Neverwinter yet either.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    What right did Black Isle have to use the same name as an even earlier game created un the early 90's (an MMO too) by Stormfront Studios?  Black Isle did not create NWN, they didn't even create the first NWN video game. Publishers buy licenses, that's the way things work. That contract gives them every legal right to associate itself with both NWN and D&D unless you're suggesting you have a more vested interest in protecting WoTC's/Hasbro's intellectual property than they do.

     

    As answered already, BI's NWN had a very obvious and solid foundation in the D&D ruleset of the time.

    No one has claimed they 'created it', this conversation is not about legal right, and I am obviously not making any silly claims to be protecting anything... lol

    I don't think you have been following this thread very closely... Thanks for the input though.

    In what way do they need to justify themselves then?  You're not familiar with 4ed rules so what exactly are you basing your criteria on?

    It's the same right Bethesda has in making TESO and using that IP.

     

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    The only way to get a true AD&D CRPG experience is to load up the SSI games made before TSR was abosrbed and WotWC raped the corpse of DnD and defiled it's grave.

    Just my opinion of course heh.

  • MortisRexMortisRex Columbia, TNPosts: 348Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    What right did Black Isle have to use the same name as an even earlier game created un the early 90's (an MMO too) by Stormfront Studios?  Black Isle did not create NWN, they didn't even create the first NWN video game. Publishers buy licenses, that's the way things work. That contract gives them every legal right to associate itself with both NWN and D&D unless you're suggesting you have a more vested interest in protecting WoTC's/Hasbro's intellectual property than they do.

     

    As answered already, BI's NWN had a very obvious and solid foundation in the D&D ruleset of the time.

    No one has claimed they 'created it', this conversation is not about legal right, and I am obviously not making any silly claims to be protecting anything... lol

    I don't think you have been following this thread very closely... Thanks for the input though.

    I think what you're trying to do is a thinly veiled attempt to stir up animosity because you weren't personally consulted about the direction the license has curently taken. I've followed this thread pretty closely, thanks. Sorry if you feel I'm not entitled to my own take on things. Thanks for your input  though.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Honest question with no malice.

    What has this title got to do with either the much loved Black Isle game that a lot of folks are obviously emotionally connecting it with (saw PC Gamer call it the successor to NWN today for example) or D&D (beyond a skin of FR lore)?

    Is it simply doing what TESO is doing and cynically trading off the credibility of  a popular IP while actually having zero to do with it once you get past the brand and the skin of lore?

    If so, is this actually an honest way to do business? It could be seen as a pretty cynical way of manipulating folks?

     

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

     Um it has just as much right to the neverwinter name as NWN did. Its Set in neverwinter in Forgotten realms D&D setting using the D&D 4th edition ruleset.

     

    Can you explain to me how deeply NW uses the 4E ruleset? Is it just a case of sharing a few spell names or whatever, or does it go further then that?

    I only ask because I honestly do not know, but I do know that NWN was built on a solid foundation of the PnP rules.

     Might i suggest you try goggling and reading for yourself?

     

    Sorry, thought this was a discussion forum for asking questions and chatting about stuff... didn't realise I wasn't allowed to offer up questions for discussion...

    Do I take it by this response that you really, in truth, just don't know?

     

    BTW, I did not say NWN used a literal copy of the PnP rules, I said it built on a solid foundation of those rules, and it did.

     

    I know whats been posted which you do as well.

    No, I don't. I haven't been following this game at all. PWE and Cryptic are not companies I follow at all.

    You also know that untill game goes into open beta pretty much no one can answer your questions (developers of the game and closed beta testers under NDA being the exception) If finding actual factual information was your goal i pointed out the best way to get it.

    Well, the thread is about more then a quest for pure facts, it is also about the ethics of trading on IPs that you have little to do with past a skin of lore and basking in the past glories of other companies.

    If PWE and Cryptic were going out of their way to seperate themselves from Black Isle's effort I wouldn't have probably even made this thread, but when I see terms being thrown around unchallenged (and even defended) like 'spiritual successor' I have to ask questions.

     

  • paulythebpaulytheb Wauwatosa, WIPosts: 261Member Uncommon

     

    I admit I started on the OP's side in this after reading his first post.

     

    After reading further though, I do now feel he is perhaps being a bit unfair. Realistically every DnD video game ever could be said to have ridden the tails of the IP.

    Judging how DnD it is before it even launches is just not right.

     

    In other words, The OP is looking for a Rapper to have Street Cred, while still in the womb. It is not really fair.

     

    ( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

    An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eluldor
    With a Beta weekend coming soon, I started looking into this game more. From the videos I have watched, the devs are saying this game is lore heavy (they added extra details and story) just for the fans. They also check in with Wizards to go over lore on a regular basis, and Wizards is even modeling some lore/characters from this game as a result. They say the game is based on that later ruleset, but I"m not informed on that and haven't played Neverwinter yet either.

     I think they need to be lore heavy with Forgotten Realms stuff - if they aren't they will be in trouble lol since FR fans are pretty concerned about these things, that and also Forgotten Realms lore are pretty exact.

     

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    What right did Black Isle have to use the same name as an even earlier game created un the early 90's (an MMO too) by Stormfront Studios?  Black Isle did not create NWN, they didn't even create the first NWN video game. Publishers buy licenses, that's the way things work. That contract gives them every legal right to associate itself with both NWN and D&D unless you're suggesting you have a more vested interest in protecting WoTC's/Hasbro's intellectual property than they do.

     

    As answered already, BI's NWN had a very obvious and solid foundation in the D&D ruleset of the time.

    No one has claimed they 'created it', this conversation is not about legal right, and I am obviously not making any silly claims to be protecting anything... lol

    I don't think you have been following this thread very closely... Thanks for the input though.

    In what way do they need to justify themselves then?  You're not familiar with 4ed rules so what exactly are you basing your criteria on?

    It's the same right Bethesda has in making TESO and using that IP.

     

    Tor, I am not basing my 'criteria' on anything.. I am asking questions. I haven't actually made one single judgement in this thread (that I am aware of).

    I have a passing familiarity with 4E though, but admitedly I am no expert on it and not a fan really.

    I would personally say TESO has zero to do with the TES games past a skin of lore and is every bit as questionable as NW in it's connecting itself to something it might not have the 'right' to (past the legal sense). That's a different subject for another thread though and I won't talk anymore about TESO here if that's cool.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    What right did Black Isle have to use the same name as an even earlier game created un the early 90's (an MMO too) by Stormfront Studios?  Black Isle did not create NWN, they didn't even create the first NWN video game. Publishers buy licenses, that's the way things work. That contract gives them every legal right to associate itself with both NWN and D&D unless you're suggesting you have a more vested interest in protecting WoTC's/Hasbro's intellectual property than they do.

     

    As answered already, BI's NWN had a very obvious and solid foundation in the D&D ruleset of the time.

    No one has claimed they 'created it', this conversation is not about legal right, and I am obviously not making any silly claims to be protecting anything... lol

    I don't think you have been following this thread very closely... Thanks for the input though.

    In what way do they need to justify themselves then?  You're not familiar with 4ed rules so what exactly are you basing your criteria on?

    It's the same right Bethesda has in making TESO and using that IP.

     

    Tor, I am not basing my 'criteria' on anything.. I am asking questions. I haven't actually made one single judgement in this thread (that I am aware of).

    I have a passing familiarity with 4E though, but admitedly I am no expert on it and not a fan really.

    I would personally say TESO has zero to do with the TES games past a skin of lore and is every bit as questionable as NW in it's connecting itself to something it might not have the 'right' to (past the legal sense). That's a different subject for another thread though and I won't talk anymore about TESO here if that's cool.

    The questions you ask imply judgement.

  • AmsaiAmsai Montgomery, ALPosts: 88Member Uncommon

    In answer to you question about the ethics of how the game (puposefully or not) is being branded and using the Neverwinter title:

    Yes, they probably could have been more honest and open, and clarified details. But.... I dont care.

     

    People seem to get bent out of shape for things like: is it p2p, f2p, OW, sandbox, themepark, instanced hub, made by this or that dev, expensive starter packs, paying for betas, using an IP but not being true enough to it. Again, I dont care about these things. Truth is I am desperate for ANY game that is fun and will hold my interest beyond a month (been a while I can tell you). As long as the devs arent f*@#ing me over, ignoring RMTs, making it TRULY P2W, or deleting my character data, I dont care how much they charge me or how they charge me (payed beta, f2p, cash shop, p2p, b2p).

     

    Im often suprised by how many people get so upset about money, when honestly subs and what not are nothing compared to the amoun people spend on beer, fastfood, and cigs. I dont even make that much money. I mean why wouldnt you be willing to spend a good amount of money on a hobby you truly likes. Id pay as high as $25/month with a bling cash shop if I loved the game, Im perfectly willing to throw money at things that make me happy. The min they stop making me happy, or if they never did, they no longer receive my support.

     

    In answer to your question about playing the games if they werent attached to the D&D or TES IPs:

    Yes, as long as they are fun. Maybe Ill hate both, but I wont know til beta or release. For TESO I am most interested in the stealth aspect and the pickpocket, lockpicking and stealing things of the shelves of peoples houses. Its supposed to be very much like the single players, but if its not then I likely will stop/never support them. For Neverwinter I am most looking forward to the Foundry. Will it be as awesome and robust as I want it to be, hell if I know. But if its not........ I will stop supporting them.

     

    TLDR; If its fun Ill throw money at it. All that matters is if I find it fun.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Amsai

    In answer to you question about the ethics of how the game (puposefully or not) is being branded and using the Neverwinter title:

    Yes, they probably could have been more honest and open, and clarified details.

    In answer to your question about playing the games if they werent attached to the D&D or TES IPs:

    Yes, as long as they are fun.

    TLDR; If its fun Ill throw money at it. All that matters is if I find it fun.

     

    Well, thanks for taking a run at the actual topic (rather then evading answers by deflecting in an effort to make this be about me rather then the game).

    But my particular question there wasn't really whether or not you will be playing the game, the question was whether you would have paid any attention to it at all in the first place if it wasn't about the implied association with the much loved NWN or the D&D branding.

    My feeling, from this thread alone, is that a lot of people already feel very emotionally protective over the game, which is suprising seeing as they know so little of it past the branding. Part of what I am asking is whether they would feel like that if was generic fantasy setting #4674555 under generic fantasy name #34566, especially with who is making it.

     

     

     

     

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    I'm just glad they used Forgotten Realms and not Greyhawk. It would have bummed me out if they had used Greyhawk as the setting for Diablo 4.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • AmsaiAmsai Montgomery, ALPosts: 88Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Amsai

    In answer to you question about the ethics of how the game (puposefully or not) is being branded and using the Neverwinter title:

    Yes, they probably could have been more honest and open, and clarified details.

    In answer to your question about playing the games if they werent attached to the D&D or TES IPs:

    Yes, as long as they are fun.

    TLDR; If its fun Ill throw money at it. All that matters is if I find it fun.

     

    Well, thanks for taking a run at the actual topic (rather then evading answers by deflecting in an effort to make this be about me rather then the game).

    But my particular question there wasn't really whether or not you will be playing the game, the question was whether you would have paid any attention to it at all in the first place if it wasn't about the implied association with the much loved NWN or the D&D branding.

    My feeling, from this thread alone, is that a lot of people already feel very emotionally protective over the game, which is suprising seeing as they know so little of it past the branding. Part of what I am asking is whether they would feel like that if was generic fantasy setting #4674555 under generic fantasy name #34566, especially with who is making it.

     

     

     I did answer this question I thought........ Though maybe I didnt answer it as directly I thought it was implied by my repsonse.

    Anyways, specifically to this question the answer is yes. If I knew nothing of cryptic and new nothing of  D&D, or if the title was not associated with either, I still would have become interested because of the Foundry System. Though the PW connection would and still does make me cautious, but that just gets back to my TL,DR from last post.

     

     

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