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What I see as ESO's possible pitfall.

13

Comments

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    And if you make alts 7 * 16 = 112sqm
    Which is exactly double vanilla wow content.

    Don't include alts.  Just a single character and everything they can possibly do.

     

    Also your rationale for 112 is way off.

     

    Sure if you include alts, SWTOR has a lot of planets .. but no one character can visit them all, and that sucks.  Hence the game is restrictive.  It also has PVP rules similar to TESO .. limited interaction with the other faction... ughh .. lame.

     

    WoW had the system down .. and that was 8 years ago.  Amazing. (Although WoW isn't a very good game nowadays, or even close to what it used to be).

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    No its more than 1 wow continent. 48sqm
    Wow continent is 28sqm

    If you only pve though. Not bad 32sqm per faction.

    Your statements are not supported with any kind of evidence.

     

    If you think the other guy makes sense, then repeat it back in your own words :D

    We are using the numbers you provided, cyrodiil is 16 square miles, each vanilla continent is 28 square miles, each faction has access to cyrodiil (16sqm) plus their own lands which consist of 2/3 zones of comparable size to cyrodiil (16sqm), thats at least 2 x 16sqm for pve (32sqm)content per faction plus the 16sqm for cyrodiil thats 48sqm, which is more than 28sqm

  • CrazyhorsekCrazyhorsek LisboaPosts: 244Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon

    But its only cyrodiil thats 1/2 a wow continent (wow continent 28 square miles, cyrodiil 16 square miles), we get access to that, plus another 3 lands of around the same size per faction, that means each faction will have access to land around the size of all vanilla wow not just one continent (maybe a bit smaller but not that much)

    There were 2 WoW continents, my friend.  Both launched with the game.

    Yes 2 continents at 28 square miles each is 56 square miles, cyrodil is 16 square miles, each faction gets access to that 16 plus 3 other lands, 4x16 is 64 square miles, I'm taking into account that some areas of each province are being held back which is why i said it will likely be slightly smaller than vanilla wow but not that much

    Obviously you know about the separations, or you wouldn't have mentioned them.  Each faction does not get 4x16, what don't you understand?  The factions are divided with barriers.  Factions CANNOT INTERMINGLE.  THEY ARE SEPARATED, completely.

     

    COMPLETELY.

     

    Each faction has their space, and if you want to see a different area of the map, you roll a brand new character on a different faction.  That is what we are talking about.... hrmmph!

     

    In WoW terms, if you roll a Night Elf, you are NEVER allowed to zone into Undead, Human, or Dwarf territory.  You get your own territory, you will never mingle with other factions.

    Yes. YES COMPLETELY. CAPS MORE. COMPLETELY and NEVER. And... THATS AWESOME. NO MINGLE. YEP.

    Btw who cares how many sqm a map has anyway? I bet you cant even explore one wow continent completely so... whats the issue?

    Carebears, doomsayers... wow.

    And this thread made me laugh btw.

    image
  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    And if you make alts 7 * 16 = 112sqm
    Which is exactly double vanilla wow content.

    Don't include alts.  Just a single character and everything they can possibly do.

     

    Also your rationale for 112 is way off.

     

    Sure if you include alts, SWTOR has a lot of planets .. but no one character can visit them all, and that sucks.  Hence the game is restrictive.  It also has PVP rules similar to TESO .. limited interaction with the other faction... ughh .. lame.

     

    WoW had the system down .. and that was 8 years ago.  Amazing. (Although WoW isn't a very good game nowadays, or even close to what it used to be).

     Thats your opinion, I think it is good. Needs to work this way for this game. WoW had open world PvP with no objective, wouldnt say they had it down. If they had POI to capture and hold would have made it alot more interesting, but instead it was just shallow and pointless.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    No its more than 1 wow continent. 48sqm
    Wow continent is 28sqm

    If you only pve though. Not bad 32sqm per faction.

    Your statements are not supported with any kind of evidence.

     

    If you think the other guy makes sense, then repeat it back in your own words :D

    We are using the numbers you provided, cyrodiil is 16 square miles, each vanilla continent is 28 square miles, each faction has access to cyrodiil (16sqm) plus their own lands which consist of 2/3 zones of comparable size to cyrodiil (16sqm), thats at least 2 x 16sqm for pve (32sqm)content per faction plus the 16sqm for cyrodiil thats 48sqm, which is more than 28sqm

    misinformation

     

    Your derivations are not solid :D

     

    An ESO faction is a lot less than 2/3 of a WoW continent.  Each faction is not 2X the size of Cyrodiil (see earlier map, or provide a new one if that is outdated).  Data indicates the exact size, with one faction larger.

     

     

     

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    No its more than 1 wow continent. 48sqm
    Wow continent is 28sqm

    If you only pve though. Not bad 32sqm per faction.

    Your statements are not supported with any kind of evidence.

     

    If you think the other guy makes sense, then repeat it back in your own words :D

    We are using the numbers you provided, cyrodiil is 16 square miles, each vanilla continent is 28 square miles, each faction has access to cyrodiil (16sqm) plus their own lands which consist of 2/3 zones of comparable size to cyrodiil (16sqm), thats at least 2 x 16sqm for pve (32sqm)content per faction plus the 16sqm for cyrodiil thats 48sqm, which is more than 28sqm

    misinformation

     

    Your derivations are not solid :D

     

    An ESO faction is a lot less than 2/3 of a WoW continent.  Each faction is not 2X the size of Cyrodiil (see earlier map, or provide a new one if that is outdated).  Data indicates the exact size, with one faction larger.

     

     

     

     

    Are you seriously saying the map of tamriel is to scale? you clearly havent played daggerfall or morrowind

     

    Edit: infact look at that map, daggerfall is on there, daggerfall alone is larger than wow and lotro combined

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    No its more than 1 wow continent. 48sqm
    Wow continent is 28sqm

    If you only pve though. Not bad 32sqm per faction.

    Your statements are not supported with any kind of evidence.

     

    If you think the other guy makes sense, then repeat it back in your own words :D

    We are using the numbers you provided, cyrodiil is 16 square miles, each vanilla continent is 28 square miles, each faction has access to cyrodiil (16sqm) plus their own lands which consist of 2/3 zones of comparable size to cyrodiil (16sqm), thats at least 2 x 16sqm for pve (32sqm)content per faction plus the 16sqm for cyrodiil thats 48sqm, which is more than 28sqm

    misinformation

     

    Your derivations are not solid :D

     

    An ESO faction is a lot less than 2/3 of a WoW continent.  Each faction is not 2X the size of Cyrodiil (see earlier map, or provide a new one if that is outdated).  Data indicates the exact size, with one faction larger.

    Are you seriously saying the map of tamriel is to scale? you clearly havent played daggerfall or morrowind

     

    Edit: infact look at that map, daggerfall is on there, daggerfall alone is larger than wow and lotro combined

    The map is to scale.  It's from a dev's statement, like I said earlier.  Cyrodiil is a 1:1 to Oblivion.

     

    Daggerfall is another ballpark. Dev's never mentioned Daggerfall.  F'kin awesome game though.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • CrazyhorsekCrazyhorsek LisboaPosts: 244Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    And if you make alts 7 * 16 = 112sqm
    Which is exactly double vanilla wow content.

    Don't include alts.  Just a single character and everything they can possibly do.

     

    Also your rationale for 112 is way off.

     

    Sure if you include alts, SWTOR has a lot of planets .. but no one character can visit them all, and that sucks.  Hence the game is restrictive.  It also has PVP rules similar to TESO .. limited interaction with the other faction... ughh .. lame.

     

    WoW had the system down .. and that was 8 years ago.  Amazing. (Although WoW isn't a very good game nowadays, or even close to what it used to be).

     Thats your opinion, I think it is good. Needs to work this way for this game. WoW had open world PvP with no objective, wouldnt say they had it down. If they had POI to capture and hold would have made it alot more interesting, but instead it was just shallow and pointless.

    Wow was designed as a PvE game. PvP was thrown in as a "second, third or fourth" option. Main design focus was, is and will always be PvE.

    If ESO is designed like DAoC, it will have its PvE there and shining but it will depend on the PvP - DAoC players remember the difference between PvE with 6 Relics (2 + 4 from other realms) and PvE without a single relic - was prolly the difference between "I can kill these 8" and "I better not even go in there".

    Plus some pve was actually allowed only through PvP - Darkness Falls.

    So again, if ESO is designed like DAoC, it will have nothing to do with WoW.

    image
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

     

    wait why this sudden obsession with quests?

    i thought you were angry becasue teso isnt enough like tes and too much like "that horrible themepark daoc"?

    if so why the quest thing, do you want another wow clone failure or something?

    Obsession with quests?

    Sorry thought I was asking questions relevent to your post about quests and content. Glad to see you totally avoided answering ANY of my questions...again!

    And I am not angry at anything. I have stated my opinion that the faction/race locks are not a good idea due to the effect it has on exploration of "the entire continent of Tamriel can now be explored" because they forget to add the small print onf only being able to do it by creating alts. It is sort of like claiming you have been to Tibet when in fact it was a friend but he showed you the pictures.

    And I haven'yt said anything about it being too much like DAOC. I stated that it isn't enough like TES due to the fact that they seem to be placing more importance on PvP and the structure DAOC had then using their brains and working out ho to make TES into an online game.

    I do not want another WOW clone failure, where do you get that from? Their design is linear not freeform progression, locked content not open content, PvP with some PvE not PvE with some PvP.

    Their design is flawed.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    No its more than 1 wow continent. 48sqm
    Wow continent is 28sqm

    If you only pve though. Not bad 32sqm per faction.

    Your statements are not supported with any kind of evidence.

     

    If you think the other guy makes sense, then repeat it back in your own words :D

    We are using the numbers you provided, cyrodiil is 16 square miles, each vanilla continent is 28 square miles, each faction has access to cyrodiil (16sqm) plus their own lands which consist of 2/3 zones of comparable size to cyrodiil (16sqm), thats at least 2 x 16sqm for pve (32sqm)content per faction plus the 16sqm for cyrodiil thats 48sqm, which is more than 28sqm

    misinformation

     

    Your derivations are not solid :D

     

    An ESO faction is a lot less than 2/3 of a WoW continent.  Each faction is not 2X the size of Cyrodiil (see earlier map, or provide a new one if that is outdated).  Data indicates the exact size, with one faction larger.

    Are you seriously saying the map of tamriel is to scale? you clearly havent played daggerfall or morrowind

     

    Edit: infact look at that map, daggerfall is on there, daggerfall alone is larger than wow and lotro combined

    The map is to scale.  It's from a dev's statement, like I said earlier.  Cyrodiil is a 1:1 to Oblivion.

     

    Daggerfall is another ballpark. Dev's never mentioned Daggerfall.  F'kin awesome game though.

    Yes cyrodiil is to scale, 16sqm, but the rest of the comparison isn't

     

    For instance it says wow is 80sqm, yet the link you provided where it was measured said it was less than 60sqm (28sqm per continent)

     

    That means cyrodiil is MORE than half the size of kalimdor, so for teso to have less than 2/3 a wow continent per faction the pve area per faction would have to be less than the size of cyrodiil, which is just not going to be the case, hell we know from experience that skyrim alone is pretty close to the size of cyrodiil, so even if we only had access to one full area per faction we would still have access to much more than your claiming

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Tabby
    That depend how big the world is. If its anything like daoc the world will be huge and there will be considerably more exploration than in modern mmos.

    Elder Scrolls games arent known for big worlds. Except for Daggerfall that is which IMO they should develop further instead of making those cluttered, tiny maps we saw in other ES games.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Lol Mael reveals self as one of the make eq3 with tes lore crowd
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Deakon
    Don't bother, its like arguing with a creationist, you put the figures in front of him, he ignores them and uses his own "special" maths to back up his prejudiced opinion. You could show him the complete game, walk through the map and he would still say its smaller than a wow continent "because I say so".
  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Deakon
    Don't bother, its like arguing with a creationist, you put the figures in front of him, he ignores them and uses his own "special" maths to back up his prejudiced opinion. You could show him the complete game, walk through the map and he would still say its smaller than a wow continent "because I say so".

    I wouldn't mind so much but the figures I'm using are the ones he provided

  • LugorsLugors colorado springs, COPosts: 180Member
    Let me add 9 and 10...

    9.  Class balance

    10. Polish

    Elder Scrolls have been these huge, lengthy games that suck you in, but also some of the buggiest pieces of software in existence.  There were always skills that were must have, multiple ways to exploit the game play, and parts and scripting that flat out didn't work.  The hype and pretty graphics will get you the initial box sales.  Balance and polish are vital to keep people playing.
  • sea.shellsea.shell SelfossPosts: 63Member

    That map again?

    http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/large-video-game-worlds2.jpg

    Where Burn out Paradise is bigger than World Of Warcraft when you can clearly count the buildings on burnout paradise?

    Doh, are people really that ignorant and fooled? I mean it's clear the picture OBVIOUSLY compares size to "what they represent" not actually scale and feature!

    According to Google and Wiki the Earth has 510,100,000 km² / 196,940,400 square miles.

    If i build a minecraft Earth with 100 blocks diameter it is bigger than everything in that ^above picture because it's "196,940,400 square miles". In truth it respresents 196,940,400 square miles in a 100 block diameter scale!


    And even Scale is a different matter, because the percieved size and scale differs with travelling speed. If i have a character that can sprint at 6 m/s, 100 meters are small compared to someone who needs the tripple time at 2 m/s speed.

    Lotro developers try to pull that many times everytime someone says the new areas are tiny. Lotro DEV: "But in the books it's 4 days worth of travel on a horseback and xxxxxxxx square miles" we have that here in lotro!


    Truth: (3 minutes at 6 m/s scale)..... = tiny respresentation of 4 days worth of 6m/s travel.


    I can only imagine how desperate people must be arguing with that map for ESO's "size".
    WoWs landmass actually blows all those listened maps out of the competiont by 50/1 scale.

    Playing: EVE Online
    Wants to play: ArcheAge, Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance / Star Citizen / FFXIV AAR / Neverwinter

    Used to play for 5+ years: Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online and Ragnarok Online

    Utter disappointing MMO experience for 1 - 3 Months:
    WAR / AoC / SWTOR / RIFT / AION / STO / TSW / GW2 / GW / Vanguard / Planetside2

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Lol Mael reveals self as one of the make eq3 with tes lore crowd

    Do me a favor, stop making random shit up (where the fuck does this EQ3 crap come from) and stop avoiding any questions I raise in reply to your nonsence. I can see now you are just making arguments up to cause trouble so either stop making stuff up and stop posting or stay on topic. Your random troll posts do not help the discussions.

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    So how do you think TESO should handle pvp?
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    So how do you think TESO should handle pvp?

    I like how they have decided to do the PvP except for having faction locks. It affects so much of the game not just the PvP and in my opinion is detremental and wasn't even neccessary.

    You would have the same results if each faction were a great house (think Morrowind) that you could join if you wanted to (All TES games) from any race.

    Then you could explore the entire continent (part of their marketing campaign)

    PvP could still be restricted to Cryodil and work as it does now.

    An option could be to even allow PvP outside Cryodil by only between great houses but not between random characters, thus keeping house (faction) pride alive, allow FFA PvP for those that want it and not have it for those that do not.

    You could create a character of any race and ally with the Great House of your choice (choice) so each house could comprise many different races.

    Guilds would not have the dilema of membesr not being able to agree on which faction to join as each guild and each great house would allow any race.

    Friends could freely choose their race rather then having to come to an agreement on which faction they want to join first.

    PvP would still have 3 way fights (great houses rather then factions) and how the PvP works now wouldn't be affected.

    Faction pride would be replaced by House pride and because you do not HAVE to create alts to see the world or do all the quests you can actually have 1 character and not feel like you are missing out.

    PvE would be unafected except for the openning up of a lot of things like exploration, dungeons in other area's being open, many more quests being available to either do as your main or to prevent repetition as an alt (Unless the game has enough quests for each faction to allow 3 characters to level to max without repetition then creating alts with faction locked content means you WILL repeate stuff).

    New content released will not have to be done 3 times as you can just release a dungeon and not have to worry about how each faction can reach it.

     

    All this off the top of my head....

     

    So to answer your question again...except for race locked factions I like how the PvP will be.

     

    Now what form of personal attack are you going to use now...

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by PongLenis
    (mod edit)

     Your version of PvP is terrible, I guess thats why your not on a development team for the PvP aspect of games. Thank the heavens too. You haven't looked at the exploitable parts of the non-locked system.

    What part of my version of PvP don't you like specifically? remember, the only thing I change is have freely chosen houses rather then hard coded factions. So what exactly is terrible about it?

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Well the first problem I see potentialy with that is once the games bedded in a bit, new players would pile on the biggest house (if they are path of least resistance types, which sadly many modern players are)

    You would also get that with factions as is though, but too a lesser degree.

    But with a tweak your system could work better. They could incentivise players to join houses with less players (better signing on fee) or even block players joining a house if its too big.

    So yeah I don't particularly have a problem there.

    Now some people will say there is a 2nd problem, all these unaligned players, there's nothing prodding them to take part in the pvp as they don't belong to a faction they have nothing to loose or gain. But I'm not bothered i would rather pveers stay out of pvp than feel pushed into doing it, as often they come in and keep trade and stuff.

    The 3rd point would be the lore bh
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    3rd point will be the lore behind pvp. With the system as is you can bet there will be a ton of quests building uo as your character advances to promote animosity to the other 2 sides. That would be lost.

    Overall I don't this your system is bad though. I was afraid you were going to say pve everywhere with a voluntary /pvp switch
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Ah another thing would be lost uniqueness of factions, although on the upside it would be easier to balance. But I kinda like unique classes to factions, its a useful tool for promoting hostilities or even buffing the underdog.
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Well the first problem I see potentialy with that is once the games bedded in a bit, new players would pile on the biggest house (if they are path of least resistance types, which sadly many modern players are)

    You would also get that with factions as is though, but too a lesser degree.

    But with a tweak your system could work better. They could incentivise players to join houses with less players (better signing on fee) or even block players joining a house if its too big.

    So yeah I don't particularly have a problem there.

    Now some people will say there is a 2nd problem, all these unaligned players, there's nothing prodding them to take part in the pvp as they don't belong to a faction they have nothing to loose or gain. But I'm not bothered i would rather pveers stay out of pvp than feel pushed into doing it, as often they come in and keep trade and stuff.

    The 3rd point would be the lore bh

    1 - Why a lesser degree with factions? Afterall, isn't there 3 games in 1 with factions so why a lesser degree?

    I have already posted before, which got shot down, that you could even make part of the game each house holding a recruitment drive with incentives for character to join each house.

    2 - People who remain unaligned to a PvP house would probably be (suprise suprise) people totally uninterested in PvP. I fail to see that as a problem.

    3 - Lore? Seriously? It makes more sence for example that ALL Orcs join the Breton Merchant lord in promise of land rather then some Orcs seeking to join a house fighting against the Breton Lord. What sounds more like Orcs and Malacath their God?

    Seek peaceful restitution with your enemy in the hopes they become your friends and give you back land

    OR

    Through strength of arms kill your foes and take what is theirs.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by PongLenis

    (mod edit)

    LOL

    Faction hoppers...you mean as in people that play for a faction and then choose to join another faction just because they can....like a system where, to see the entire world due to faction locks the designers of the game MAKE you change faction to see the rest of the game?

    You sir are ignorant of the current game design and your own lack of IQ.

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