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Longevity. Yes or No

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  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    I dont think it will have very good longevity since they think that adding "MMO required features" like instances, battlegrounds, zone lockouts and more are a requirement....it is clear they are only after box sales and hope to make back their investment plus profit in the first 3 months and could probably care less about the game doing well past their initial release.

    This kind of rumor mongering and  spread of ill information is the plague of these forums.  Let's begin with the fact that the game doesn't have battlegrounds, only the FvFvF area.

     

    image

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by toddze
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    ....it is clear they are only after box sales and hope to make back their investment plus profit in the first 3 months and could probably care less about the game doing well past their initial release.

    exactly, absolutly nothing about this game stands out to me about them trying for anything more than what I quoted for above. 

    It seems developers has almost perfected this model. These games a coming out like factory made items.  Cheeply made zones,  genric quests. They are all the same game with minor changes to make it look different.

    I just feel sorry for the casual elder scrolls gamer, the one's that doesnt really live in forums like we do. They are going to see TESO and their eyes will light up light a christmas tree. They are going to be thinking "Skyrim online". Oh man, how he/she will be sorely dissapointed. This example is another huge red flag that they are just after box sales. They couldnt even put any effort into making the combat feel like an ES game.

     Completely agree.

    To me it seems that no matter how innovative the developers try to be or even think they are, they are still acting only between the standardized boundaries existing in practically every MMO created in last 10 years.

    There is always the same framework. They just slightly change details. There are always the dungeons, raids, bgs, levels, endgame, quests, you name it. And then inside these boundaries, they start making the "changes". Our dungeons will be public dungeons, our quests will be dynamic events, we wont have holy trinity, we will have non-tab-targetting combat, etc...

    How about trying to change the formula completely and create something truly new. In my opinion, there will not be revolution in the genre unless someone tries to break these boundaries.

    The only thing I would disagree with is the combat. I kind of like the combat from the videos I have seen.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • allendale5allendale5 kansas city, MOPosts: 124Member

    I feel that as long as MMO's continue to replicate the same old ideas into different formats, this game and others to come will always lack longevity.   I think that the core goal should be to completely throw out the D&D/WoW format and come up with something new.  New games like to come up with new names for stats or gear but basically they are just various ways of implementing the same material.  

    Why always strength, dex, con, int, wis etc etc??  why always levels and gold?   Why not start out as 10y/o kid carrying rocks to defenders on the walls of a siege and then gradually age by actual experience?  Have player actually LEARN skills, not train them for a price or because of a level.  Why not have players randomly assigned looks, sex, race, and born into a random family of other, more advanced players?  We don't get to choose our sex or race or skills prior to being born IRL so why not try to emulate this?  Not saying this is a great idea, just saying that if a dummy like me can think of this in 5 seconds (and there are several other great ideas I read in this thread) then why can't devs?  

    I feel that no game will endure until the MMO introduces more chance, requires more skill and patience, and is organic and random in it's progression.  NPC's that never move, or only know 2 sentences.. yawn.  Give us player developed content that is permenant.  

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member
    This is going to be a game where some people will simply have to see or play the beta in action to decide whether or not they think it 'feels" like Elder Scrolls or just another MMO.
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    First off, I would like to state that my intention with this post is not to bump my old thread.

    However, the question asked in the OP is still relevant for me.

    When I made this thread, the hype of this game was around 6 and if you look at the replies, many people predicted that this game will be another 3 month business before it becomes boring.

    On the other hand, some people answered that it was too early to ask this question.

    The game is currently the most hyped title on mmorpg.com. (I realize is not directly connected to the question of longevity or even potential quality of the game as we learned with some of the most hyped titles of the past.)

    I was wondering if they released any new information in the last 3 months which would allow you to give more accurate / educated answer to the question in the OP.

    Where is the longevity in this game, FOR YOU.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • FindarielFindariel SomewherePosts: 216Member

    Longevity is also one of my main concerns. One of the reasons why I'm in favour of P2P games and not B2P + cash shop. I don´t want to quit playing a game after a few months, I love the idea of building a virtual game community where everyone can do stuff and have fun.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    1. More to do than just fighting
    I hope people can enjoy the game playing different roles than just "fighter". One thing I loved about EVE is that some people were fulltime miners, crafters, traders or transporters, some of which couldn't even properly fly a frigate. I hope TESO will have multiple options to specialize deeply into things like crafting, food and such.

    I feel that it would greatly contribute to making it a really rpg living, breathing world. I always dreamed of a full player run village with blacksmiths, tavern keepers, masons, carpenters, tailors and the like.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    2. Semi-randomized Dungeons
    I just don't like the static dungeon mechanic most games offer: always the same predictable mobs in the same place doing the same things. Usually resulting in wiki and youtube walkthoughs - and that's it. People work out the best group/way to speedfarm it and the next 5 years it's basically just another farm spot - or people just ignore it because it's too hard or unrewarding.

    What I'd love to see (but probably won't) is dungeons with more randomized content:

    • So let's say you enter a dungeon, kill the goblin guards protecting the brigde, evade traps while you fight off bats and meet a troll mini-boss with its goblin minions.
    • The next time you get there the bridge is broken so you have to get across the underground river where a crocodile family is swimming around. The bats are still there, but have a mini-boss, and after that you'll face a small horde of goblins circling around their dead troll boss.
    • The third time you'll get the same bridge guarded with goblins but there's netting spiders with a poison bite in the trap corridor. The troll is there again, but there's a second caster troll as well, which makes it a totally different challenge.

    And so on. If every dungeon had like 5 "scenarios" for every spot (spots in the example: bridge, trapped corridor, troll spot) and the average dungeon would exist out of 10 scenarios + some random patrols, you never know what you're going to meet. It would keep the content a lot more unpredictable and challenging then static content that you can lookup on a wiki a week after release.
    Especially if devs would add a few new scenarios every now and then, which is far easier than make whole new dungeons. It may take a very long time to see every scenario and perhaps you'll never see all 50.

    Some scenarios would perhaps favour casters, others may be easier for melee classes, some may cater the sneaky professions better. That way you can never have an "ideal dungeon group".
    And with the random scenarios and adding some new ones from time to time you'll never get a youtube or wiki walkthough.

     

    Originally posted by thexrated
    Not looking for longevity. Happy with few months worth of entertainment.

    Exactly - as if there´s not already enough games around to cater the "gamehoppers" among us.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Can't possibly say as we don't now how often they will create updates, how captivating is the end game pvp (or pve for that matter)  and if they actually somehow capture the feeling of an elder scrolls game.
  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Findariel
    *snip* lots of really good points that I feel bad about snipping but snipped anyway *snip*

    I like the idea of semi randomized dungeons, even if they just did what PoE is doing and have set bosses but randomize the layout, it would help keep things fresh.

     

    Don't think the PoE way of changing the complete layout would work well in this ip but you could randomise the mob layout and what abilities the mobs have access to tho, speed runners would hate it, but I would love it!

  • DarrgenDarrgen alcoa, TNPosts: 65Member

    I think this game will have longevity where others have failed. Some people fail to understand just how much community building things are in this game. First you have public dungeons which is excellent for building Alliance communities. Unlike raids in other games like WoW, the more people you bring the better, not only that but if a public dungeon raid starts at 8pm and you can't be on til 10pm, that's not a problem because you can just meet up halfway through. Or if you can only be on for the first half you can kill the bosses your raid kills and get loot til you have to leave.

    Then you have something that DaoC had that no game has had since. That's Faction pride, people hear it all the time from daoc vets i know but there is a reason. DaoC was a game that even the most pvp hating person felt a sense of contribution when defending his faction's relics or keeps. Whole Pve raids would stop on a dime to go defend against the threat of a 200-300 person relic raid that hits multiple keeps at once. IF your guild owned a keep and your guild chat started spamming 123 invaders killing guards at your keep, you immediately alerted the alliances to come defend.

     

    Then you have the uniqueness of the alliances. The land is your own and the stuff in it is only experienced by your realm. Some see this as a downside but it is definitely an upside. It makes your class and alliance feel much more unique and if by chance you do get bored, you have a whole other game to explore if you reroll to another alliance.(which by the way you probably wont reroll another alliance til much later in the game because most fall in love with their alliance and feel that sense of betrayal if you thought about rerolling)

     

    Trust me, i think a lot of people on this forum are underestimating this game because of the last few years of failure games. I believe this one is one to break the mold though, Matt Firor is the guy I'd want behind an MMO.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Originally posted by allendale5

    I feel that as long as MMO's continue to replicate the same old ideas into different formats, this game and others to come will always lack longevity.   I think that the core goal should be to completely throw out the D&D/WoW format and come up with something new.  New games like to come up with new names for stats or gear but basically they are just various ways of implementing the same material.  

    Why always strength, dex, con, int, wis etc etc??  why always levels and gold?   Why not start out as 10y/o kid carrying rocks to defenders on the walls of a siege and then gradually age by actual experience?  Have player actually LEARN skills, not train them for a price or because of a level.  Why not have players randomly assigned looks, sex, race, and born into a random family of other, more advanced players?  We don't get to choose our sex or race or skills prior to being born IRL so why not try to emulate this?  Not saying this is a great idea, just saying that if a dummy like me can think of this in 5 seconds (and there are several other great ideas I read in this thread) then why can't devs?  

    I feel that no game will endure until the MMO introduces more chance, requires more skill and patience, and is organic and random in it's progression.  NPC's that never move, or only know 2 sentences.. yawn.  Give us player developed content that is permenant.  

    well aparently they are copying the DAOC format, which is nothing like the WOW format, just about the only thing they have in common is a WASD/hotbar UI.

    As for stats, Magika / Health / Stamina just like skyrim (older tes titles did have agility and stuff though).  Also skills advance through use.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by toddze
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    ....it is clear they are only after box sales and hope to make back their investment plus profit in the first 3 months and could probably care less about the game doing well past their initial release.

    exactly, absolutly nothing about this game stands out to me about them trying for anything more than what I quoted for above. 

    It seems developers has almost perfected this model. These games a coming out like factory made items.  Cheeply made zones,  genric quests. They are all the same game with minor changes to make it look different.

    I just feel sorry for the casual elder scrolls gamer, the one's that doesnt really live in forums like we do. They are going to see TESO and their eyes will light up light a christmas tree. They are going to be thinking "Skyrim online". Oh man, how he/she will be sorely dissapointed. This example is another huge red flag that they are just after box sales. They couldnt even put any effort into making the combat feel like an ES game.

     Completely agree.

    To me it seems that no matter how innovative the developers try to be or even think they are, they are still acting only between the standardized boundaries existing in practically every MMO created in last 10 years.

    There is always the same framework. They just slightly change details. There are always the dungeons, raids, bgs, levels, endgame, quests, you name it. And then inside these boundaries, they start making the "changes". Our dungeons will be public dungeons, our quests will be dynamic events, we wont have holy trinity, we will have non-tab-targetting combat, etc...

    How about trying to change the formula completely and create something truly new. In my opinion, there will not be revolution in the genre unless someone tries to break these boundaries.

    The only thing I would disagree with is the combat. I kind of like the combat from the videos I have seen.

    dungeons being open or closed isnt a minor change

    with an open dungeon game like daoc or eq you just rock up and take part, players are OUT IN THE WORLD.

    with a closed dungeon game like wow or swtor you hang around in cities queueing and waiting to go dungeons.  

    the same is true with rvr frontiers and instanced mini game pvp.

    basicly ;

    •   open dungeons and rvr = Massively Multiplayer online role playing game
    •   instanced dungeons and mini game pvp = Glorified lobby game once leveled

     

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Depends how good the rvr is

     

    I agree.  If ESO can be considered a GW2 / DAOC hybrid then I think the DAOC side will be largely responsible for holding players long term.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • CrynswindCrynswind buenos airesPosts: 290Member

    lol, this game has "3 weeks and then to the garbage bin" written all over it.

     

    Themepark? check

    Dumbed down? check

    Casual meaningless pvp? check

    IP raping? double check

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    Originally posted by Crynswind

    lol, this game has "3 weeks and then to the garbage bin" written all over it.

     

    Themepark? check

    Dumbed down? check

    Casual meaningless pvp? check

    IP raping? double check

     

    Casual meaningless PvP? Um.... no. Quite the opposite.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    I  and my wife played DAOC on and off for 10 years.

    ESOL has the potential to hold me that long if they hold end expand upon the features that made DAOC great.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Depends how good the rvr is

    You could have just left it at one word imo.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    Entirely pointless and wildly speculative thread considering that the longevity factor is not clear in the slightest at the moment.

    The information released to date raises various questions, but longevity isn't one of them.

    You are clearly dissmissive of themeparks, but you really don't know how sandbox Cyrodil is going to be - nor how big, nor how much fun, nor how challenging.

    You're guessing at best...

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Crynswind

    lol, this game has "3 weeks and then to the garbage bin" written all over it.

     

    Themepark? check

    Dumbed down? check

    Casual meaningless pvp? check

    IP raping? double check

    Evidence for the last three of the above points?

    ...No...

  • NC-JohnNC-John burlington, WIPosts: 113Member

    If they can keep content updates on a Trion pace of speed, and listen to player feedback, They may delay the ultimate problems most themparks are facing with player retention, due to content consumption not in-line with pacing mechanics.

    They really need to listen to beta testers. even if after those same testers all agree the game needs more time, they should listen. Don't be like all the rest and keep saying "after release" it's truly a copout to hear that now. get it in beta and get it done. you only get one release and it has to be a good one that can last beyond the free 30 days of game play or it's the big decline and eventual F2P conversion.

     

    "Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor

  • NiburuNiburu BerlinPosts: 378Member Uncommon

    It will suffer from the same problems as other themeparks. You play through the content and maybe do some endgame PvP and PvE. Once you did it 2-3 times it gets boring because it is all the same.  You can't create anything like in the single player games, no freedome that the single player or sandbox games offer.

     

    In the end it might be not a failure like star wars online but it will slowly die than grow like GW2 does. Doesnt mean its a bad game but the concept is simply outdated and major companies need to realize that the futur is for sandbox open world and freedome games in which players build stuff, like ArchAge.

     

    However its a big industry now, companies develop for a profit and not for gameplay. So a game dies after 2 years but had enough income the companies dont care

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Niburu

    It will suffer from the same problems as other themeparks. You play through the content and maybe do some endgame PvP and PvE. Once you did it 2-3 times it gets boring because it is all the same.  You can't create anything like in the single player games, no freedome that the single player or sandbox games offer.

     

    In the end it might be not a failure like star wars online but it will slowly die than grow like GW2 does. Doesnt mean its a bad game but the concept is simply outdated and major companies need to realize that the futur is for sandbox open world and freedome games in which players build stuff, like ArchAge.

     

    However its a big industry now, companies develop for a profit and not for gameplay. So a game dies after 2 years but had enough income the companies dont care

    Show me some kind of proof that a sandbox game will do better than a themepark, because i've looked and all evedence points to the oposite

     

    To my knowledge no sandbox mmo has broken half a million, yet the last 2 major themeparks released sold over 2 million, or were those sales people who had mistaken gw2 and swtor for a sandbox?

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    Not read the entire thread but just wanted to say..

     

     

    We have not idea at all the game is not out yet, hell its not even in beta as far as i know..

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Findariel

    Longevity is also one of my main concerns. One of the reasons why I'm in favour of P2P games and not B2P + cash shop. I don´t want to quit playing a game after a few months, I love the idea of building a virtual game community where everyone can do stuff and have fun.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    1. More to do than just fighting
    I hope people can enjoy the game playing different roles than just "fighter". One thing I loved about EVE is that some people were fulltime miners, crafters, traders or transporters, some of which couldn't even properly fly a frigate. I hope TESO will have multiple options to specialize deeply into things like crafting, food and such.

    I feel that it would greatly contribute to making it a really rpg living, breathing world. I always dreamed of a full player run village with blacksmiths, tavern keepers, masons, carpenters, tailors and the like.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    2. Semi-randomized Dungeons
    I just don't like the static dungeon mechanic most games offer: always the same predictable mobs in the same place doing the same things. Usually resulting in wiki and youtube walkthoughs - and that's it. People work out the best group/way to speedfarm it and the next 5 years it's basically just another farm spot - or people just ignore it because it's too hard or unrewarding.

    What I'd love to see (but probably won't) is dungeons with more randomized content:

    • So let's say you enter a dungeon, kill the goblin guards protecting the brigde, evade traps while you fight off bats and meet a troll mini-boss with its goblin minions.
    • The next time you get there the bridge is broken so you have to get across the underground river where a crocodile family is swimming around. The bats are still there, but have a mini-boss, and after that you'll face a small horde of goblins circling around their dead troll boss.
    • The third time you'll get the same bridge guarded with goblins but there's netting spiders with a poison bite in the trap corridor. The troll is there again, but there's a second caster troll as well, which makes it a totally different challenge.

    And so on. If every dungeon had like 5 "scenarios" for every spot (spots in the example: bridge, trapped corridor, troll spot) and the average dungeon would exist out of 10 scenarios + some random patrols, you never know what you're going to meet. It would keep the content a lot more unpredictable and challenging then static content that you can lookup on a wiki a week after release.
    Especially if devs would add a few new scenarios every now and then, which is far easier than make whole new dungeons. It may take a very long time to see every scenario and perhaps you'll never see all 50.

    Some scenarios would perhaps favour casters, others may be easier for melee classes, some may cater the sneaky professions better. That way you can never have an "ideal dungeon group".
    And with the random scenarios and adding some new ones from time to time you'll never get a youtube or wiki walkthough.

     

    Originally posted by thexrated
    Not looking for longevity. Happy with few months worth of entertainment.

    Exactly - as if there´s not already enough games around to cater the "gamehoppers" among us.

    Thanks for the answer. I agree for the most part.

    I would like to see the red part as well. I made a simple game concept where I describe this (link in my signature if you were interested).

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by toddze
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    ....it is clear they are only after box sales and hope to make back their investment plus profit in the first 3 months and could probably care less about the game doing well past their initial release.

    exactly, absolutly nothing about this game stands out to me about them trying for anything more than what I quoted for above. 

    It seems developers has almost perfected this model. These games a coming out like factory made items.  Cheeply made zones,  genric quests. They are all the same game with minor changes to make it look different.

    I just feel sorry for the casual elder scrolls gamer, the one's that doesnt really live in forums like we do. They are going to see TESO and their eyes will light up light a christmas tree. They are going to be thinking "Skyrim online". Oh man, how he/she will be sorely dissapointed. This example is another huge red flag that they are just after box sales. They couldnt even put any effort into making the combat feel like an ES game.

     Completely agree.

    To me it seems that no matter how innovative the developers try to be or even think they are, they are still acting only between the standardized boundaries existing in practically every MMO created in last 10 years.

    There is always the same framework. They just slightly change details. There are always the dungeons, raids, bgs, levels, endgame, quests, you name it. And then inside these boundaries, they start making the "changes". Our dungeons will be public dungeons, our quests will be dynamic events, we wont have holy trinity, we will have non-tab-targetting combat, etc...

    How about trying to change the formula completely and create something truly new. In my opinion, there will not be revolution in the genre unless someone tries to break these boundaries.

    The only thing I would disagree with is the combat. I kind of like the combat from the videos I have seen.

    dungeons being open or closed isnt a minor change

    with an open dungeon game like daoc or eq you just rock up and take part, players are OUT IN THE WORLD.

    with a closed dungeon game like wow or swtor you hang around in cities queueing and waiting to go dungeons.  

    the same is true with rvr frontiers and instanced mini game pvp.

    basicly ;

    •   open dungeons and rvr = Massively Multiplayer online role playing game
    •   instanced dungeons and mini game pvp = Glorified lobby game once leveled

     

    You are right. Public dungeons are not as minor change as the others mentioned above.

    I do like them.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Entirely pointless and wildly speculative thread considering that the longevity factor is not clear in the slightest at the moment.

    The information released to date raises various questions, but longevity isn't one of them.

    You are clearly dissmissive of themeparks, but you really don't know how sandbox Cyrodil is going to be - nor how big, nor how much fun, nor how challenging.

    You're guessing at best...

    Wildly speculative? Yes

    Entirely pointless? Depends on the point of view.

    My point is not to prove something or reach some definite conclusion. The point is to find out other's opinions (or speculations if you will) regarding this matter.

    I am dissmissive of themeparks as you say which should not be so relevant for the point of this thread described above.

    Feel free to speculate if you like and if you dont, feel free not to participate in the discussion.

    The answer to the question asked in the OP may be quite simple. One person may say..."for me, the longevity is in the public dungeons if they are done right". Next person may say "for me, it is the pvp that promises longevity if this and that happens".

    In fact, I would be interested to hear some opinions like this. Is that entirely pointless? Maybe...

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

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