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Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by corpusc Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by GN-003 Right, because a combat system that's heavily reliant on gear is so much more complex and difficult. We all know that the time spent grinding for said gear truly represents a player's skill level.
your obsession with skill is misplaced.
MMOs aren't a playground to test your skill. eSports are.
you're looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
Ahh yes evey mmo has to offer the same thing to everyone. That would make the market a better place. All of us that enjoy skill based games are simply wrong and the games we play should change to be like everyone else.
there's plenty of skill-based games. Even skill-based MMOs. like Knights or w/e it's called.
we're running low on "virtual worlds" though...
they are not at all mutually exclusive.
the combination of the 2 is what's sorely lacking.
you don't see why ?
realistically, it's difficult to make an open world MMO where individual 1v1 is very skill-based, and that skill translates at 1000 v 1000 battles. because of obstacles like "what does it matter how well grunt #352 played when there's 200 healers on the field." and of course the "what if it's not 1000 v 1000 but 800 vs 1200.".
I can tell you eve 1v1 takes skill. eve 100 v 100 takes ability to follow orders.
individual skill fades in large groups and large groups are the predominant factor in MMOs.
the problem of translating INDIVIDUAL skill in large scale battles is a big one. because group tactics take over replacing individual decisions.
not only most developers don't have an answer here, but an answer might not exist at all. Historically looking at pre-gunpowder battles, who wins typically?
the guys with more troops.
the guys with better armor.
the guys who can keep formation better.
the guys with smarter general.
not necesarily the guys who had #1 and #2 best ranked soldiers in their roster.
The trojan war was won by the horse not by Achilles. in fact he died in that war. despite being 99.5% immortal.
so if you can find a way to translate individual skill at group-base level...we can begin seeing what you're looking for. But until this is answered...we can't.
so, in other words..... "massive amounts of players fighting can never be as skillful as 1 on 1 fighting"
keep 'em coming!
The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects
Originally posted by corpusc so, in other words..... "massive amounts of players fighting can never be as skillful as 1 on 1 fighting" keep 'em coming!
it can be AS skillful.
it cant be massively more skillful.
bring 99 more players and your skill accounts for 1% of the fight.
Dominating your 1% is not that epic.
Originally posted by Robokapp it can be AS skillful. it cant be massively more skillful. bring 99 more players and your skill accounts for 1% of the fight. Dominating your 1% is not that epic.
You're 1% of your team by number not by skill. One player killing 20-30+ people on the other team would be pretty epic and a demonstarion that the totall skill pool of a team isn't always handed out in equil portions.
This is the classic fail argument of the bads on world of tanks that even though one player consistently gets more kills/damage/hits ect and wins more games it's still just luck because he's only 1 of 15 and can't effect the outcome of the fight.
Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by Robokapp it can be AS skillful. it cant be massively more skillful. bring 99 more players and your skill accounts for 1% of the fight. Dominating your 1% is not that epic.
exceptions exist. I've seen fleets in eve defeat fleets 3 times their size withou losses.
but developing a game where this is the norm is difficult. super-skilled players are few. and the few get well-known. So next time two fleets meet an in one fleet there's 20 unknowns and one elite, guess who the enemy will focus fire to take down first.
this style of gameplay you're suggesting is ideal. it's perhaps the culmination of gamers' dream everywhere. Being in a large crowd, as a small unit and still aving the potential to change the course of the battle.
I think it's still mostly at dream stage of development though. I'd love it. I'd play it. I've seen it in shooters. But not often in MMOs. That sniper guy who ends the round at 100 kills 12 deaths without cheating will change the course of the fight. This doesnt translate so well in MMOs though due to issues of balance primarily.
a sniping shooter cant be translated into a ranged mmo char. Because of melee vs range 1v1 balance. In shooters there's no melee so this issue isnt relevant.
edit: shooter not hooter.
even simpler, looking at Starcraft. 1 or 2... you play 1v1 and there's an immense room for skill. play 4 v 4 and it's a lot more "who worked together best, who zerged who better" and less "which player did an amazing engagement.
If anyone else gets motion sick try turning off some of the graphics settings like motion blur (and possibly depth of field).
Don't know if TERA has it in the actual options since I did my option editing through the .ini file, just google it. I turn off all the crap like bloom, ambient occlusion, motion blur, etc... (also try zooming out further or zooming in closer to see if it makes any difference)
Anyone else arguing about bullshit irrelevant to the OPs problem stfu and take it somewhere else. It's not their fault for getting motion sickness either, you can't do anything but you can try to minimize the issue if the game gives you enough options to change.
Originally posted by Kyleran Well I don't have any motion sickness problems but sure hope they keep making MMOs without action style combat. Tera's wasn't to bad, but for the most part I am not paying any attention to any MMO that is promoting this form of combat. Really wish all you console gamers had stayed out of PC based MMORPGs.
It's just the opposite for me, once I got a taste of action combat in an mmo I was hooked. I find since playing Tera and Vindictus tab target combat in other mmos a bit boring for me to play. Action combat makes more sense to me, I mean who the hell stands there and gets pounded while fighting anyway. Leaving incoming damage you take up to gear math is dumb. Nothing beats blocking and hitting in real time it's more immersive. I hope to see more mmos out there with this style of combat.
With the issue of motion sickness, I find i get the same feeling when my video settings are set to high in games and you get that slight lag while panning the camera. I usually have to turn it down a bit. If you just don't like the actual combat then that's not the case.
motion sickness in "shooter-like" (sort of) games is often related to FoV setting.
Tera has no "in-game" control to modify FoV, however being based on unreal engine you can easily edit one of the config file and set keys to reset fov to a proper value (16:10 screen should have a 95 FoV or something). Been changing FoV in U-based games for years, on suggestion by buddy who has serious sickness issues with shooters (i don't, but I feel a bit of eye strain if 4:3 screen FoV - usually the default in every game - is applied to my 16:10 monitor or 16:9 tv.)
Just sayin' - google a bit..
Originally posted by DamonVile I've heard of people getting motion sickenss in FPS games. I wonder if it's something you can build upa tollerance to like sea sickness ( which is the same thing pretty much ) I can't read a book in a moving car because the motion outside the window while I'm reading the page makes me sick.
I'm one of those people who gets really sick while playing FPS or even 3D RPG/MMORPG with lots of camera movement .
And I can tell you that you can build up a bit of tolerance if you can keep playing these kind of games everyday, when you feel sick, rest, and play again. After a while you'll get less sick while playing.
However, when you stop doing this for a while, you'll get sick again. That's what happened to me. I used to play conter-strike, the only FPS i played for an extended amount of time everyday around 8 years ago. At first I was sick after playing 1/2 hour or so, but after a while I can play 3-4 hours without any problem. Stopped playing CS for a few years, and nowadays I can't play any FPS games. eg. I bought Alan Wake when it's on special a while ago and I just can't play it without feeling really sick.
For RPG/MMORPG nowadays I usually use 3rd person view and try to zoom out as far as possible to avoid large camera movement.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Originally posted by Robokapp exceptions exist. I've seen fleets in eve defeat fleets 3 times their size withou losses. but developing a game where this is the norm is difficult. super-skilled players are few. and the few get well-known. So next time two fleets meet an in one fleet there's 20 unknowns and one elite, guess who the enemy will focus fire to take down first.
The same argument gets made in tanks. They even have a mod that shows peoples win rates so you can pick out the good players. Guess what happens when a team focuses on the good player.
The cost of killing him is so high in losses to your team you still end up losing and his win rate goes up. I don't play eve but I'd be willing to bet a good player there knows when he's being focused and how to use that against his enemies.
A good player is a good player and will always find a way to stand out above the regulars. Numbers don't negate idividual skill or the effect they can have on any size battle.
cuz a dice roll depending where you hit or block is sooooo fun, or auto aim an arrow that magically aims no matter where they run to is so realistic... and another dice roll tells you if you hit...
Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by Robokapp exceptions exist. I've seen fleets in eve defeat fleets 3 times their size withou losses. but developing a game where this is the norm is difficult. super-skilled players are few. and the few get well-known. So next time two fleets meet an in one fleet there's 20 unknowns and one elite, guess who the enemy will focus fire to take down first.
glad somebody in this conversation gets it. 8)
in a 1 on 1 situation, there's a cap on how much a player can display his skill, depending on how less skilled the other guy is.
in massive fights he can unleash it all.
cuz his demonstrable skill is not being bottlenecked by fighting just 1 opponent.