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Inconvenience is the Key

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  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Ezhae

    On whatever games official forums you will rarley find a huge number of posts syaing "stuff is too easy"

    :raise hand: I've seen those posted virtually every day in certain games.

    Scratch that, every game. "Too EZ" is just a traditional pose-and-flex topic, has always been.

    Well yeah, it's often as bragging when someone first complains that it's too hard. WoW is best example in that regard. The game wasn't exaclty hard since the start but as more poeple trickled in, discooverign the genre thorugh WoW, the more and more you've seen people asking for stuff to become easier to get for "average player". 

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    I remember when we just played the game.  When playing Pac Man didn't go around shouting, "WTF that Red Ghost is OP" we just learned to deal with it - and got better at the game.  Inconvenience comes in many flavors.  I don't like mindless repetition, but I'll take inconvenient challenge any day.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    One of the drawbacks of MMOs is that travel is very rarely--at all--meaningful. Part of the price a 3D world pays for camera control; you can see what's happening, out to the edge of agro range or even far beyond.

    Surprise is only achieved by a mob spawning literally in your lap. Compromises exist; patrolling mobs help (a  little), randomly wandering mobs help (a lot more). Really tight density-spawning creatures are "annoying and tedious", if you're more concerned with getting from A to B than you are with killing spawns.

    But still, for a reasonably careful player, traveling from A to B just isn't something that's ever classed as "difficult".

    In the MUD days, we would travel from town to town via scripted movement--Move E, Move E; Move S, Move NE...you could do the moves manually, once you're memorized the sequence, but most folks, honestly, didn't do that for long.  A question of A to B being a 2-minute movement script or a 25-minute manual walk. "Surprise" consisted of moving into a room with a hostile crittur on your path; if it could get a hit in on you, your scripts would (sometimes) be interrupted, you could even get killed.

    At best, it reminds you of a toon's mortality (sneaking through a zone that's at or above your level).

    But town A to town B? Generally doesn't involve movement through much or any "near your level" territory. Which may be the design flaw that's really missing from this equation. Travel's is only meaningful through critturs (or players) that can do more than annoy you. Add mounts, and even fewer critturs can even annoy you. It's not inconvenience that's missing; it's relevance.

    If you find travel enormously tedious, I might first suggest a PVP realm to 'wake you up'.

    Well, what compells you to reduce the argument just to combat, aggro and ambushes?

    How about stamina, encumbrance (sic?), class based teleports and forms of travel, transportation blocked zones and areas, area bonuses/penalties (peace/periodic damage, regen+-) promoting mobility instead of sticking to a spot...

    Those were all in the muds, but ofcourse, these days, when "combat is the core mechanic of mmorpgs"...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by maplestone

    Perahps one of the simplest examples of how messy this concept gets is travel time.  If you were a developer, how long should you make players hold down the w key to get from one hub to the next.  Is it a complete waste of the player's valuable time?   Is it a check on over-efficient consumption of content?  Or is required part of building a sense of geography, isolation and anticipation?  Is it all of these at once?

    My opinions on this are all over the map (and not always consistent with each other), but one of the trends that is setting off alarm bells for me is the notion of cash-shops being used to bypass inconvenience, that the idea of the sole reason an inconcenience exists in a game is to be a motivation for people to pay real money to get past it.  It freaks me out to look around on forums and see other people *not* having the same alarmed reaction, just taking it in stride.  It's a humbling reminder to me that I still have a lot to learn about how other people think.

    Good point. If OP really thinks inconveniences are the key, he/she should try playing F2P games for free. There will be plenty of inconveniences there.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by maplestone

    Perahps one of the simplest examples of how messy this concept gets is travel time.  If you were a developer, how long should you make players hold down the w key to get from one hub to the next.  Is it a complete waste of the player's valuable time?   Is it a check on over-efficient consumption of content?  Or is required part of building a sense of geography, isolation and anticipation?  Is it all of these at once?

    My opinions on this are all over the map (and not always consistent with each other), but one of the trends that is setting off alarm bells for me is the notion of cash-shops being used to bypass inconvenience, that the idea of the sole reason an inconcenience exists in a game is to be a motivation for people to pay real money to get past it.  It freaks me out to look around on forums and see other people *not* having the same alarmed reaction, just taking it in stride.  It's a humbling reminder to me that I still have a lot to learn about how other people think.

    Good point. If OP really thinks inconveniences are the key, he/she should try playing F2P games for free. There will be plenty of inconveniences there.

    I vote to extend Godwin's law to "cashshop F2P" :)

    These games more often than not offer equipment , experience and skills in a cashshop, does that mean that equip, experience and skills are put into the game just to milk the cashshop, and should be abandoned altogether? :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    How about stamina, encumbrance (sic?), class based teleports and forms of travel, transportation blocked zones and areas, area bonuses/penalties (peace/periodic damage, regen+-) promoting mobility instead of sticking to a spot...

    Those were all in the muds, but ofcourse, these days, when "combat is the core mechanic of mmorpgs"...

    I do remember some teleports, generally only something you did once your backpack was full, from atop the corpse pile and back to 'town'. I suppose the specifics varied by title, but it was a pretty "big gun" power in MUDs, not something used every trip. GS used a lot of 'anchor point' teleport gold rings, which included a chance of being "mugged' in transit. Relevant?

    Area bonues--again, would they raise a 'trivial' crittur up to 'actual threat' level?

    Encumberance--Maneuver penalties, generally. Might get you killed, once in a great while, if you were silly enough to stay out in the wild that way. Maybe it's just me, but that's one 'archaic system' that was a damn good idea to get rid of; it was incredibly clumsy.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    There is a huge difference between challenging someone and just throwing up a series of pointless roadblocks. MMOs commonly  put time sinks and other bizarre barriers in players way. They were never, and still aren't, challenging. I'm not sure they can ever be challenging because people would just cry a river until the nerf bats come out. As it is people still whine about gear checks in WoW. That's not exactly a hard game.

    There's a difference between challenging and frustrating.  Most things in MMOs aren't very challenging, they're just frustrating, pointless roadblocks as you say.  Given the choice between frustrating and simple, I'll choose simple every time.  Unless they can figure out how to challenge without the challenges being pointless, why bother?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    How about stamina, encumbrance (sic?), class based teleports and forms of travel, transportation blocked zones and areas, area bonuses/penalties (peace/periodic damage, regen+-) promoting mobility instead of sticking to a spot...

    Those were all in the muds, but ofcourse, these days, when "combat is the core mechanic of mmorpgs"...

    I do remember some teleports, generally only something you did once your backpack was full, from atop the corpse pile and back to 'town'. I suppose the specifics varied by title, but it was a pretty "big gun" power in MUDs, not something used every trip. Relevant?

    Area bonues--again, would they raise a 'trivial' crittur up to 'actual threat' level?

    Encumberance--Maneuver penalties, generally. Might get you killed, once in a great while, if you were silly enough to stay out in the wild that way. Maybe it's just me, but that's one 'archaic system' that was a damn good idea to get rid of; it was incredibly clumsy.

    You must have played some very simplistic muds then, you know, kinda hard to argue if someone approaches you with "the frozen pizza they sell at the local 7/11 is crap, all italian food is crap and everyone should eat hamburgers".

    I remember teleport disabled zones that DID make your life more challenging and where abilities like run energy regeneration or carry capacity would shine, not even mentioning fighting with penalties, in a area where you cannot regenerate, we would use the special (racial, class or quest gained) teleports to go to town and then back as mana batteries in a proper "raid", good times....

    Just the consideration that a thief would be able to go on forever exping in a hostile environment while a mage would have to find ways to escape (ways to travel?) once in a while to regain mana seems so completely outlandish these days...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • hraethhraeth Hillsboro, ORPosts: 34Member

    I think the issue of meaningful travel has to be solved with the possibility (probability?) of worthwhile encounters while traveling.  Certinaly the current model of static (+ a few roaming) spawn while you travel from A to B is in no way meaningful and functions as a simple time-sink.  I'm interested in the model Pathfinder is proposing where dungeon entrances will appear randomly throughout the world, the idea being that you will happen upon them while traveling / exploring.  I think this and other ideas like it may be one answer to the problem of meaningful travel.

    To those who's sage suggestions to the OP are along the lines of, "if you want inconvenience go play F2P games without paying...":  I think that's hardly the kind of inconvenience that is being looked for here.  Inconvenience must be meaningful.  Needing to hold a torch in one hand or having a wizard expending some of their precious mana on a light spell while delving deep into a dungeon is meaningful (and immersive).  Not being able to wear gear because you haven't unlocked the ability in the cash shop is not meaningful (and breaks immersion). 

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by hraeth

     Needing to hold a torch in one hand or having a wizard expending some of their precious mana on a light spell while delving deep into a dungeon is meaningful (and immersive). 

    Add in having to unequip the "light source" equipment slot and aquire in some way the "infravision" buff because the skeleton horde 'round the corner is unable to see in the dark for more fun :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    These games more often than not offer equipment , experience and skills in a cashshop, does that mean that equip, experience and skills are put into the game just to milk the cashshop, and should be abandoned altogether? :)

    Flame on!

    So no flames needed - I agree with you.  If anything is boosted/accelerated in a cash shop, it means people are paying real money to *not* play the game ... which calls into question what the entertainment value of that feature was in first place.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    In the MUD days, we would travel from town to town via scripted movement--Move E, Move E; Move S, Move NE...you could do the moves manually, once you're memorized the sequence, but most folks, honestly, didn't do that for long.

    Heh, I remember doing that back in the 90s; after spawning, sleeping to max health and mana, thinking "I want to go to zone X" and punching in a sequence of directions twice as long as the Konami code from memory.  I didn't intend to memorize the directions, it just kind of happened.  The only time limitations involved running out of stamina.  PvP was also really intense in the MUD days.

    /OT

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Inconvenience works, when options are limited.
  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I just think when most of the "so called mmorpg" have turned into instanced dungeon and instance raid and instance battleground, you really don't need those inconvenience. 

    The inconvenience is really there mostly for those open world pvp games.  You need people to have long travel times so they can fight each other.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    These games more often than not offer equipment , experience and skills in a cashshop, does that mean that equip, experience and skills are put into the game just to milk the cashshop, and should be abandoned altogether? :)

    Flame on!

    So no flames needed - I agree with you.  If anything is boosted/accelerated in a cash shop, it means people are paying real money to *not* play the game ... which calls into question what the entertainment value of that feature was in first place.

    What is the entertainment value of building a plastic model when you can buy the finished thing?

    Flame on!

    :) 

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    These games more often than not offer equipment , experience and skills in a cashshop, does that mean that equip, experience and skills are put into the game just to milk the cashshop, and should be abandoned altogether? :)

    Flame on!

    So no flames needed - I agree with you.  If anything is boosted/accelerated in a cash shop, it means people are paying real money to *not* play the game ... which calls into question what the entertainment value of that feature was in first place.

    What is the entertainment value of building a plastic model when you can buy the finished thing?

    Flame on!

    :) 

    What if you want to play this interesting dungeon but the prerequiest is to kill 5000 rats with your sword or buy a poison in the cashshop for 5$ that can instantly kill 5000 rats.

    I mean, what you really want to do is do the dungeon but not kill 5000 rats with your sword.

    Anyway, I think we are getting offtopic.

  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LauraFrost

     

    The reason why most recent MMORPGs are boring is because they are just too convenient.

    When you design an MMORPG that probably aiming to use a subscription model you need to create an environment where the player can delve into for long playing time feeling that they "belong". It is when developers started to turn the world into a "game" of convenience that players started to feel more of being in a "themepark" than being in a world. (and sandbox has nothing to do with it).

     

    The key here is we're so spoiled that everything is made easy to the point that "getting there" feels pointless and effortless. You don't feel accomplishment at all because it's a fact no matter who you are, you WILL achieve everything eventually (which is usually within a few days).

     

    If traveling is too easy, death is unimportant and leveling is very linear and fast.... then what's the point???

     

    Adding such inconveniences to the "World" would give you enough design options to add player-intederependence skills that help overcome such inconveniences. Traveling is too slow? you give, say, 30% of the classes abilities to overcome such a thing (teleporting, speed boost...etc).

     

    The old timers always ask "Why can't I even convince myself to login in?" part of this because there's no sense of "investment" in your character. Everything feels very generic and again too convenient.

    If every 2 minutes you're going to loot a gear upgrade, I say tell me why would you feel excited about gear upgrade anymore? I think we need to balance the pace of a game. Traveling pace, combat, leveling and gear upgrade. I think if it takes you 5 days in order to get a minor upgrade would actually make the item a lot more exciting than the recent trivial/redundaness of itemization in the insta-gratification MMORPGs.

     

     

     

     I cant see how death penalty or long travel time can add any joiment to any game. Other reasons are cousing games to be less fun to play than those two you mention.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,927Member Uncommon

    For people who want convenience in an MMORPG, adding inconvenience is not likely to be seen as a positive.

     

    Different day, same general concept:  Players don't all want the same things in an MMORPG.

     

    For myself, I was quite displeased when WoW removed the need to carry ammunition for my hunter.  I felt it was an appropriate detail as part of gameplay.  However, the masses cheered the change as removing an inconvenience.  I see this as a clear illustration of how a developer will cater to the masses and disregard minority preferences.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • apb2011apb2011 Quebec city, QCPosts: 153Member Uncommon

    WOW!! You guys should give up MMOs. Its like drugs. You do it for years just to get the same high you got when you first started. And you never get the same high down the road.

    Unless technology changes, there will still be the same shitty MMOs being released. Its all about money.

    GO OUT AND GET LAID AND FORGET MMOs!

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    You must have played some very simplistic muds then, you know, kinda hard to argue if someone approaches you with "the frozen pizza they sell at the local 7/11 is crap, all italian food is crap and everyone should eat hamburgers".

    I remember teleport disabled zones that DID make your life more challenging and where abilities like run energy regeneration or carry capacity would shine, not even mentioning fighting with penalties, in a area where you cannot regenerate, we would use the special (racial, class or quest gained) teleports to go to town and then back as mana batteries in a proper "raid", good times....

    Just the consideration that a thief would be able to go on forever exping in a hostile environment while a mage would have to find ways to escape (ways to travel?) once in a while to regain mana seems so completely outlandish these days...

    Flame on!

    :)

    Relax, no 'mine's bigger' required.

    Yep, we had lots of rooms flagged +noteleport, as well as the more specific +noteleportin and +noteleportout. It honestly rarely equated to "more challenging", but I guess if you add up hundreds of rather insignifcant individual restrictions, you'll achieve enough cumulative "inconveniences" to justify some minor chest-thumping.

    Largely reliant on the degree of latent sadism of your room painters, I suppose. :shrug: Games in the 80-90s really could be made "hard as hell" just by piling on enough cumulative frustrations--and coders weren't at all shy about doing it, either.

    We love to stretch and tell these youngsters how easy they had it, my games were all uphill, both ways, through the snow, all the time.

    I just hope not many of the youngsters buy it...because the truth is that it's largely exaggeration driven by nostalgia and the previously mentioned Iyamso hardc0re pose-and-flex dance.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    What is the entertainment value of building a plastic model when you can buy the finished thing?

    Do not try and buy the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.  There is no spoon.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by apb2011

    GO OUT AND GET LAID AND FORGET MMOs!

    People keep telling me things like this, but it always turns out they weren't volunteering.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    I see absolutely no reason you cannot mix the old with the new and make a decent MMORPG.

     

    Old most would like to see again...

    - Open seamless world (or fairly close at least) .

    - Quests that are quests (Deep stories and longer to complete with a decent reward you will use awhile). Epic Chain quests.

    - Robust economy via meaningful crafting. (Crafted items better than world drops and better than some raid drops.

    - Travel that allows exploration and gives the world a large feel to it.

     

    New to innovate the above...

    - Make the world more unique...with less copy and paste scenery and more unique landmarks. Hidden dungeons, random events.

    - Chain quests taking you to several locations world-wide to complete with possible arching storylines or options for a varied result. Also helps with giving travel a point. Just quests with purpose, interesting stories, and that effect the world or player reputation.

    - Crafting needs a real purpose, and needs to be relevant.  I'm not saying crafted gear has to be the absolute best in-game. As some raiding that requires 25 players should be the best...but possibly making some crafted gear on par....so players can buy gear from players if they are not into Raiding...but those that choose to raid don't get the short end of the stick because others could buy better.

    - Travel. World travel is a must. But that isn't to say I am against instant travel. Traveling that same path for the 1000th time can get boring. So I feel (personally) portals should be an option to certain locations (Major hubs). But limited and not overdone.

    I see no reason such things as ships to take from one continent  to another cannot be done. Why can there not be things to do at the port whiel awaiting a ship? Small PvP arenas, games players can play for coin, a small trader's post players can browse or haggle, a tavern for players to mingle.

    Anyways, I feel so much can be done to take away the wait and same old issues players complain about...but so many developer's do so little to actually do so. Personally I feel it's because players settle for what they get, so the dev's feel little need to go that extra mile. If they keep paying, why bother?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    The quote from Raph Koster in my sig sums it up best, one man's inconvenience is another person's challenge. How are developers to know which of them to cater to? There in lies the real heart of the debate. Generally speaking they try to cater to the largest audience to maximize revenues/profits.

    Surveys? Player responds and complains?

    And of course they cater to the largest audience. Is there a reason to cater to the smallest?

    Personlly, i don't play a game to travel. Given that there are millions playing MMOs, i doubt many share this "lack of motive to log on".

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    I see absolutely no reason you cannot mix the old with the new and make a decent MMORPG.

     

    Old most would like to see again...

    - Open seamless world (or fairly close at least) .

    - Quests that are quests (Deep stories and longer to complete with a decent reward you will use awhile). Epic Chain quests.

    - Robust economy via meaningful crafting. (Crafted items better than world drops and better than some raid drops.

    - Travel that allows exploration and gives the world a large feel to it.

    Great ideas, but some problems.  First off, when crafted items are better than anything you can get from a mob, it creates a grind roadblock, where someone will have to grind constantly to gather enough money to pay for the better items.  There's really no fun in that.  Secondly, while I have nothing against travel, and it might be exciting the first couple of times you go to a certain place, by the time you've been there 8-10x, you don't want to see the same old tired environment anymore, along with the same old tired random mobs.  You just want to get there and have fun *NOW*, not trudge through things you've already seen over and over again.

     

    New to innovate the above...

    - Make the world more unique...with less copy and paste scenery and more unique landmarks. Hidden dungeons, random events.

    - Chain quests taking you to several locations world-wide to complete with possible arching storylines or options for a varied result. Also helps with giving travel a point. Just quests with purpose, interesting stories, and that effect the world or player reputation.

    - Crafting needs a real purpose, and needs to be relevant.  I'm not saying crafted gear has to be the absolute best in-game. As some raiding that requires 25 players should be the best...but possibly making some crafted gear on par....so players can buy gear from players if they are not into Raiding...but those that choose to raid don't get the short end of the stick because others could buy better.

    - Travel. World travel is a must. But that isn't to say I am against instant travel. Traveling that same path for the 1000th time can get boring. So I feel (personally) portals should be an option to certain locations (Major hubs). But limited and not overdone.

    I see no reason such things as ships to take from one continent  to another cannot be done. Why can there not be things to do at the port whiel awaiting a ship? Small PvP arenas, games players can play for coin, a small trader's post players can browse or haggle, a tavern for players to mingle.

    Anyways, I feel so much can be done to take away the wait and same old issues players complain about...but so many developer's do so little to actually do so. Personally I feel it's because players settle for what they get, so the dev's feel little need to go that extra mile. If they keep paying, why bother?

    Problems galore here.  First, hidden dungeons never stay hidden for long, once they're found, they're mapped in detail on the wiki, the secrets last maybe until the end of the first day, then they're no longer hidden.  I do like the idea of truly random dungeons that move once a day to a wholly new location, but again, if there's a pattern, it won't be long until someone works that out and it's up on the wiki.  Secondly, we have the typical problem with the "you're a  hero" nonsense, I have yet to play any of these games where I have ever felt like a hero, nor that anything I did made a demonstrable difference in the world.  It just doesn't.  Everything you do, everyone else has already done.  So what?  If you fail, the world doesn't end, if you succeed, the world doesn't improve.  It just  goes on.  Crafting has no real purpose, in most  games, every single smith makes the exact same sword from the exact same ingredients.  You can't tell who made what because they're all the same.  Perhaps the biggest problem is that most people just don't want to wait at all, they have limited time to play the game and they don't want to waste it screwing around waiting for a ship to arrive.  I want to go where I need to go and do what I want to do.  Wasting an hour wandering around in the wilderness to get to fun content is just not what I'm playing the game to do.

    Sorry, it just doesn't work for the majority of MMO players.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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