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What right has this game to associate itself either with NWN or D&D in truth?

13

Comments

  • BoraellBoraell YorkPosts: 82Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I apologise for quoting myself, but no one has yet directly answered this and I am interested.

    If Cryptic had just launched the game as a generic fantasy MMORPG with no known IP or the ability to connect it to an older much loved title would you even be looking at it as a fan?

    If its an unknown IP then its not possible to look at it as a fan. If your asking would I be looking at it as a fan of the genre then yes I would, exactly as I do with every new or announced RPG, RTS, FPS, or MMO. I then decide based on the information availible if it has the GAMEPLAY im looking for to make it worth investing some time and less money than I spend in 2 hrs at a restaurant on.

    Unfortunately theres a good reason the word fan is derived from fanatic (which is apparently acceptable in video games but not religion!!), to qoute one of the posters on page 1:

    What does a twitch-based action game have in common with a PnP RPG? Not much, in my opinion. I don't care what universe a video game is set in, or what 'rule set' it uses. If you can't play a rogue paladin who's on a quest to dethrone the corrupt leader of his order, you're not playing an RPG.

    Yet hes on a website dedicated to games where you cant do that....

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by Boraell
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I apologise for quoting myself, but no one has yet directly answered this and I am interested.

    If Cryptic had just launched the game as a generic fantasy MMORPG with no known IP or the ability to connect it to an older much loved title would you even be looking at it as a fan?

    If its an unknown IP then its not possible to look at it as a fan. If your asking would I be looking at it as a fan of the genre then yes I would, exactly as I do with every new or announced RPG, RTS, FPS, or MMO. I then decide based on the information availible if it has the GAMEPLAY im looking for to make it worth investing some time and less money than I spend in 2 hrs at a restaurant on.

    Unfortunately theres a good reason the word fan is derived from fanatic (which is apparently acceptable in video games but not religion!!), to qoute one of the posters on page 1:

    What does a twitch-based action game have in common with a PnP RPG? Not much, in my opinion. I don't care what universe a video game is set in, or what 'rule set' it uses. If you can't play a rogue paladin who's on a quest to dethrone the corrupt leader of his order, you're not playing an RPG.

    Yet hes on a website dedicated to games where you cant do that....

    Yes, I think it is a shame that MMORPGs never went in the direction of PnP and the MUDs/MUSHes where you could indeed have such storylines in them. These were not hardcoded stories though : these were basically "live events", run by GMs. I don't really see any other way to do this than to have GMs and live events.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • barasawabarasawa Eugene, ORPosts: 273Member Uncommon

    Don't forget that Neverwinter is the main political and economic power in that setting.

    If you want to buy something, sell something, or hire someone, you can do it at Neverwinter.

     

    Sure, they could always put the game in the underdark, but that wouldn't have half the possibilities that Neverwinter can provide as your adventuring hub. Though they could save a lot on graphics since you'd mostly be blind in the Underdark, unless you had darkvision, but that only goes so far (usually either 60' or 90' with a few rare 120') and is in black and white.

    Then there's always Thay, but I don't think adventurers have much leeway there since it's rather totalitarian from what I've read. And of course, insulting one of the Red Wizards is a quick way to get outlawed if not executed.  In my opinion, Thay is a great place to visit and cause chaos in, so long as you are high enough level to get away with it, and get away safely. :)

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • Valas71Valas71 cobarPosts: 9Member
    Nothing , it doesn't even follow the 4E RULE SET , COME ON ! , never seen a warrior roll 250+ damage on any mobs . this great weapon fighter video is bull s h i t   .where in any D&D rule set do you see any role do 1000+ crit  , this is just a action Role playing game ,not D&D rule set
  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by barasawa

    Don't forget that Neverwinter is the main political and economic power in that setting.

    If you want to buy something, sell something, or hire someone, you can do it at Neverwinter.

     

    Sure, they could always put the game in the underdark, but that wouldn't have half the possibilities that Neverwinter can provide as your adventuring hub. Though they could save a lot on graphics since you'd mostly be blind in the Underdark, unless you had darkvision, but that only goes so far (usually either 60' or 90' with a few rare 120') and is in black and white.

    Then there's always Thay, but I don't think adventurers have much leeway there since it's rather totalitarian from what I've read. And of course, insulting one of the Red Wizards is a quick way to get outlawed if not executed.  In my opinion, Thay is a great place to visit and cause chaos in, so long as you are high enough level to get away with it, and get away safely. :)

    Neverwinter is the center of Netheril and Thay war right now. Ashmadai are two timing them while openly supporting Thay(as before Neverember came they ruled there).

    Neverember is an outsider to Neverwinter and came there because he hates Thay and hates Netherese. So it is a four way standoff.

     

     That and the city is multi-racial i.e. Any race can come freely there - no restrictions on magic either.

     

    Only other good cities of Sword Coast that match NW are BG, Waterdeep and Amn.

  • TyrranosaurTyrranosaur Albuquerque, NMPosts: 284Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter

    My snarky remark is they have the right because they have the license. 

    But like some have said, Neverwinter is just a city in FR. It doesn't have to be related to Bioware or the NWN series.

     

    Obvious snarky remarks aside...

    Yes, this game has a FR setting, but it wears a D&D badge, with D&D being the mechanics behind the FR lore.

    To draw a connection with D&D, one would have to assume it actually has something to do with that system?

     

    Also, on the Black Isle NWN... you don't think it's disengenious that Cryptic are allowing it (promoting it?) to be the direct successor to that much loved game? It obviously has nothing to do with NWN past some lore and labels.

    You...haven't played a lot of tabletop D&D have you? D&D is, as IPs go, rather larger and more encompassing than just Black Isle and FR. As both properties go (not to mention prior Neverwinter titles) everything I've seen so far screams D&D...at least, D&D as it's been portrayed in various medai for the last fifteen years. 

     

    D&D has had four primary editions and two variant editions (the original "zero edition" and Basic/Expert). It's got tons of spin-offs, the core game is covered by more than a dozen published worlds (FR being only the more popular of them), and of course it's 3rd edition of the game...the one that started D20....spun off many variants, some of which even influenced games like KOTOR 1 and 2. 

     

    Anyway, if we decided that for NW to look/feel like D&D it must emulate the mechanics, then we must ask, "which edition, and to what extent?" because there is no single representation of D&D that is easily defined by its mechanics outside of some key "sacred cow" concepts like armor class, hit points, alignment and such. This gets even crazier when you consider that as of 2013 the 4th edition is effectively "dead" and they are developing a 5th edition for a 2014 release. In fact right now they are reprinting all the older editions, putting many in print again for the first time in decades.

     

    If D&D is defined by its settings, then FR is a good choice, but personally I wish other worlds like Greyhawk, Eberron, Ravenloft or Dark Sun didn't get ignored all the time. Hell, a new Planescape game would be fantastic. But D&D at its core is not actually about any of these settings, but the one that the players and DM create, so even an "official" setting isn't exemplary of D&D necessarily (for example, the movies...for better or worse...do not use an established setting).

     

    D&D does have a lot of concepts that, if present, make it feel more like D&D. Alignment...drow....beholders....the planar wheel....Orcus...stuff like that is ubiquitous in D&D.  

    Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
    Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)

  • TyrranosaurTyrranosaur Albuquerque, NMPosts: 284Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Omnifish

    It's a license they bought to appeal to an established fanbase. 

    Much like how rappers make crap actors, studios will still give it a go because they bring along a fanbase who'll go see the film just to see their favorite rapper in it.

    So regardless of how the game is people will still try it out based on the name association.  That's how branding works ;)

     

    Well, Queen Latifah is not a crap actor by a long stretch, but I understand your point, and I get how branding works...

    We all know branding can be ethical and honest or it can be cynical and dishonest, designed to fool people.

    Which is this?

    We won't really know until it arrives, of course. If I had to guess based on what I'd seen so far, however, I'd say its an earnest effort to encapsulate the game's look, feel and lore but the mechanics will probably pay lip service to D&D 4th edition...and no one will be bothered, because that edition is already being buried in an early grave, unfortunately. 

    Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
    Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)

  • TyrranosaurTyrranosaur Albuquerque, NMPosts: 284Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

    I bought into and have quite enjoyed Rift, which had no tie-in to anything prior to its own existence other than the broader scope of "fantasy gaming," so yes, its possible to be excited for a game without a distinct IP attached.

     

    To answer the question about NW specifically: I think I would be interested in it regardless of the D&D bit because of the prospect for dynamic user-generated scenarios which has not been done (to the best of my experience) in a fantasy MMO before; I also like the ARPG element they have been advertising. So yeah, the game does indeed seem to be offering (according to all I've read) some interesting features that make it interesting regardless of the IP.

     

    What I don't like, unfortunately is the $200 early adopter package they threw out there recently, which does not bode well for a game that can be played for reasonable money. Perfect World has, in my experience, been excellent and ruthless when it comes to gouging customers in its freemium models.

    Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
    Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon

    i never played Neverwinter, didnt like D&D and im waiting for this game. As for Elder Scrolls, i like morrowind, i like oblivion, and i LOVE SKyrim. I want skyrim online but i know TESO is far from it but im also waiting for that game.

     

    If the story is good enough to keep me engaged then ill be happy. I dont play mmos without story anymore. Thats what keeps me pushing my character through any game. A good story. Since i neve played NWN im not even connecting that story to NW but as long as its engaging im fine.

    Thats just me

    image
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    It has no right. Just like STO, WAR, AoC, LotrO has little to do with their respective IPs, so does this one. It is just so that the devs can cash in on the IP.
  • SoulStainSoulStain Tampa, FLPosts: 202Member
    It has the right...because Cryptic paid for the right.
  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Honest question with no malice.

    What has this title got to do with either the much loved Black Isle game that a lot of folks are obviously emotionally connecting it with (saw PC Gamer call it the successor to NWN today for example) or D&D (beyond a skin of FR lore)?

    Is it simply doing what TESO is doing and cynically trading off the credibility of  a popular IP while actually having zero to do with it once you get past the brand and the skin of lore?

    If so, is this actually an honest way to do business? It could be seen as a pretty cynical way of manipulating folks?

     

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

     Um it has just as much right to the neverwinter name as NWN did. Its Set in neverwinter in Forgotten realms D&D setting using the D&D 4th edition ruleset.

       Seriously I can't see how (A) you couldn't answer the question yourself with the info you have and (B) how in all honesty therws not at least a bit of malice in your question (as you claim) as anyone with even alittle bit of information on the game could asnwer your question  of what it has to do with D&D and NWN.

      Is it NWN 3? No, black isle is dead we will never see a NWN 3 and in truth Obsidian already did a really good money grab with the godawfull NWN 2. (Game was rushed with numerous bugs, the ending was nothing but a poorly acted scetch drawing were your characters buried under tons of earth in a attempt to force players to buy their equally poorly done squal, and character companions ran out of anything new to say by act 2)

       Now you can hate the D&D 4th edition rule set (many do) you can Hate Neverwinter because it shares a NW with NWN, but maybe you should just let go of trying to make neverwinter fit into your idea of what NWN 3 should be, or ignore the hype that that game mags like PC gamer get paid to do.

       Neverwinter might not be everything I want it to be but I'd rather try it and play it (hell its free even) then just post on forums toxically about everything thats not just the way i want it to be

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by SoulStain
    It has the right...because Cryptic paid for the right.

    I am pretty sure the OP is talking about the right as seen from the fans point of view and not the lawyers and suits.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VirgoThree

    http://www.amazon.com/Neverwinter-Campaign-Setting-Dungeons-Supplement/dp/0786958146

    If you want the direct connection, here you go. This is the setting, and version of that setting Cryptic's Neverwinter utilizes.

    Also, the game shares mechanics but is an action RPG adaptation of 4th edition. From what I've seen, it has the base classes, races, and general mechanics of the powers. It is however not turn based, grid based combat.

     So do you think the OP was asking a loaded question with malice intended (dispite his claims)  or do you think he was really to lazy to google the information easily available to answer his questions and needed us to do it for him?

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Honest question with no malice.

    What has this title got to do with either the much loved Black Isle game that a lot of folks are obviously emotionally connecting it with (saw PC Gamer call it the successor to NWN today for example) or D&D (beyond a skin of FR lore)?

    Is it simply doing what TESO is doing and cynically trading off the credibility of  a popular IP while actually having zero to do with it once you get past the brand and the skin of lore?

    If so, is this actually an honest way to do business? It could be seen as a pretty cynical way of manipulating folks?

     

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

     Um it has just as much right to the neverwinter name as NWN did. Its Set in neverwinter in Forgotten realms D&D setting using the D&D 4th edition ruleset.

     

    Can you explain to me how deeply NW uses the 4E ruleset? Is it just a case of sharing a few spell names or whatever, or does it go further then that?

    I only ask because I honestly do not know, but I do know that NWN was built on a solid foundation of the PnP rules.

     

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    It has no right. Just like STO, WAR, AoC, LotrO has little to do with their respective IPs, so does this one. It is just so that the devs can cash in on the IP.

     self entitlement is not really a right.

    Saying "I'm a FAN damnit how dare any game use any name close to NWN even if the game is set in neverwinter setting" is some serious entitlement issues.

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Norcal, CAPosts: 612Member
    Thee right that Wizards of the Coast grants thee.
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by VirgoThree

    http://www.amazon.com/Neverwinter-Campaign-Setting-Dungeons-Supplement/dp/0786958146

    If you want the direct connection, here you go. This is the setting, and version of that setting Cryptic's Neverwinter utilizes.

    Also, the game shares mechanics but is an action RPG adaptation of 4th edition. From what I've seen, it has the base classes, races, and general mechanics of the powers. It is however not turn based, grid based combat.

     So do you think the OP was asking a loaded question with malice intended (dispite his claims)  or do you think he was really to lazy to google the information easily available to answer his questions and needed us to do it for him?

     

    What a shame you went in this direction with your posting in this thread... but no matter.

    I have explained already that my questions are lore aside. I am talking about mechanics and the relationship to the more famous and much loved NWN game.

    One of my questions was, clearly, how deep is that 'adaptation' of 4E in this game? What I mark in red is... what *exactly* have you seen? Can you provide some links to it? Or are we operating from dev spin, assumption, and hope here?

    The other was is it fair for them to intentionally trade on Black Isle's good name with a game that is only related to their quality work by setting?

     

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    To avoid confusion they should've probably name the game Forgotten Realms: Sword Coast North... but if they do that it probably won't sell the game as good, lol
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by SoulStain
    It has the right...because Cryptic paid for the right.

    I am pretty sure the OP is talking about the right as seen from the fans point of view and not the lawyers and suits.

     

    Yes, exactly.

    I expected these kind of literal responses though I must admit from folks who didn't understand the post I made so I have just been ignoring them.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    To avoid confusion they should've probably name the game Forgotten Realms: Sword Coast North... but if they do that it probably won't sell the game as good, lol

     

    Yes, indeed.

    People seem emotionally attached to this game already (look at some of the responses here in this thread), which i can only put down to them connecting this with the older title or the D&D brand because the game itself looks pretty generic (to me).

    We are seeing the same thing happening with TESO, but I guess that is why they use these licenses in the first place. They bring a certain amount of unquestioning fanatical support with them just by association.

    I guess it also allows them to charge what they are charging for founder's pack etc.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Honest question with no malice.

    What has this title got to do with either the much loved Black Isle game that a lot of folks are obviously emotionally connecting it with (saw PC Gamer call it the successor to NWN today for example) or D&D (beyond a skin of FR lore)?

    Is it simply doing what TESO is doing and cynically trading off the credibility of  a popular IP while actually having zero to do with it once you get past the brand and the skin of lore?

    If so, is this actually an honest way to do business? It could be seen as a pretty cynical way of manipulating folks?

     

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

     Um it has just as much right to the neverwinter name as NWN did. Its Set in neverwinter in Forgotten realms D&D setting using the D&D 4th edition ruleset.

     

    Can you explain to me how deeply NW uses the 4E ruleset? Is it just a case of sharing a few spell names or whatever, or does it go further then that?

    I only ask because I honestly do not know, but I do know that NWN was built on a solid foundation of the PnP rules.

     

     Might i suggest you try goggling and reading for yourself? After all why believe me or any other random poster here that you don't actually know in RL? Seriously its not that hard and I'm sure you have some kinda internet browser that will let you.

      Personally I am not a fan of the D&D 4th edition ruleset so have only seen them briefly and could not tell how close the game follows the rules even if i did have the game to play (Which obviously only a beta tester undr NDA would have at this point anyway)

      And your wrong NWN played pretty dam loosely with the D7D rule set. Lets take Familiars for example. I know of no edition of D&D rules in which which a first lvl mage could summon a fairy familir rogue that could easily unlock doors and disarm traps. Thats just off the top of my head that i can remember and I haven't played NWN in something like 10 years

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Honest question with no malice.

    What has this title got to do with either the much loved Black Isle game that a lot of folks are obviously emotionally connecting it with (saw PC Gamer call it the successor to NWN today for example) or D&D (beyond a skin of FR lore)?

    Is it simply doing what TESO is doing and cynically trading off the credibility of  a popular IP while actually having zero to do with it once you get past the brand and the skin of lore?

    If so, is this actually an honest way to do business? It could be seen as a pretty cynical way of manipulating folks?

     

    As a side quesion, and I ask the same of TESO fans, would you be as excited for this game if it didn't connect it's brand to one you already love? Would the game itself hold up to what you are looking for? Would you care about it anymore then a random PWE game? Try to answer honestly if you can...

     Um it has just as much right to the neverwinter name as NWN did. Its Set in neverwinter in Forgotten realms D&D setting using the D&D 4th edition ruleset.

     

    Can you explain to me how deeply NW uses the 4E ruleset? Is it just a case of sharing a few spell names or whatever, or does it go further then that?

    I only ask because I honestly do not know, but I do know that NWN was built on a solid foundation of the PnP rules.

     Might i suggest you try goggling and reading for yourself?

     

    Sorry, thought this was a discussion forum for asking questions and chatting about stuff... didn't realise I wasn't allowed to offer up questions for discussion...

    Do I take it by this response that you really, in truth, just don't know?

     

    BTW, I did not say NWN used a literal copy of the PnP rules, I said it built on a solid foundation of those rules, and it did.

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,617Member Uncommon
    Saw PWE and then thought well I haven't played NWN2 so played it and will skip this one because it only has a town named Neverwinter and probly 4th gen rules. Most likely won't be playing it. Will give the free option a try of course.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
    To avoid confusion they should've probably name the game Forgotten Realms: Sword Coast North... but if they do that it probably won't sell the game as good, lol

     

    Yes, indeed.

    People seem emotionally attached to this game already (look at some of the responses here in this thread), which i can only put down to them connecting this with the older title or the D&D brand because the game itself looks pretty generic (to me).

    We are seeing the same thing happening with TESO, but I guess that is why they use these licenses in the first place. They bring a certain amount of unquestioning fanatical support with them just by association.

    I guess it also allows them to charge what they are charging for founder's pack etc.

      Ah so in truth your not really out to get information but instead are only out to stir up emotional responses against something you see as wrong. (ie the use of the Neverwinter name in a game you don't see as a spiritual successor to NWN.)

      Well played if thinnly veiled, and alot of of posters took the bait, yes you played them (us?) well

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