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Simplifying complicated topics
Quirhid
Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
I've been following the circus that is called "politics" and I saw the same tactics there that are quite common on these forums aswell. That is, mainly, making a complicated topic seem like a simple one and presenting it as a binary issue with either-or solutions. Topics I've seen this happen include:
- Pay to Win discussions
- Free to Play versus Pay to Play discussions
- Sandbox versus themepark
- Instances and other issues touching the "purity" of MMOs
- ...and many others
Have you seen this happen? Do you think simplifying the matter helps finding the answer if there is one? Does the person doing the simplification doing it for some agenda?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Comments
I think you have correctly identified a trend, and one that goes far beyond discussion of computer games. I think creating a dichotomy gives the feeling of simplifying the issue: black and white, good and bad. That said, most of these are false dichotomies in that they ignore a viable middle ground. So while we are simplifying the discussion, we are also severely limiting the terms of it and the possible solutions.
EDIT: you'll notice this in play in the simple act of voting in a legislative body. You either vote for or against. What if you would vote a percentage, or on a scale of 5? Would that change the discussion? In these forums I do think that a number of people actively try to stake out the middle ground, even if the thread starts off trying to create a binary.
I dont think they have an agenda - they just wear "black or white" glasses
when everything is shades of grey
EQ2 fan sites
I don't think they simply "ignore a viable middle ground", I don't think there's even a dilemma for them. Often it seems they create threads solely for the purpose of reaffirming their own belief. For example "P2P is good, P2W is bad. Discuss" is how I would resume much of the discussion on this forum regarding P2P vs. F2P. Those thread starters already have a preconception against one or the other, so in essence there is no 'dilemma' for the thread starter, only his view is the 'right one'.
The popular logical fallacies, such as the False Dilemma, are used a lot because they're effective. They leave an impression on the audience.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
The premises of an argument are often introduced with words such as "Assume," "Since," "Obviously," and "Because."
"True" is one of my personal favorites. "Everyone knows" means it just isn't so, by at least 10000 to 1. A hundred types of gamer slang. "Hardcore"-what do YOU mean when you say that? "Sandbox", what do YOU mean when you say that? "Classic MMOs"-which title (specifically) do you envision when you say that?
People, I believe, just find it difficult to grasp that what's omgobvious to them may not be true, or the least bit obvious, to other readers.
Why do people seek simple arguments? The same reason they seek binary answers.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Even the most "simple" Themepark MMO is a collection of systems that interact and intertwine in exceedingly complex ways.
I'm often reminded of the GW2 arguement of "just make a PvP server" as a good vessel for portraying how so many people on this site actually understand so very little.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Good thread.
I agree with ya OP.
But I will say this can go either way, people around here also like to take a simple topic and make a 4 paragraph post about something that could be summed up in one sentence.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Wouldn't simplification be anti-sophistry? Not necesssarily, I suppose. Just informality. :shrug:
We know why politicians do it. Cynical belief that Americans can't digest anything longer than a sound bite.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Is it really cynical? We live in a country where 75% of Americans can name the Three Stooges but only 42% could name the three branches of our government.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Make a "Skyrim MMO" would be another.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I agree with this. A lot of asperger/nerdie types tend to have black and white thinking. It makes it hard to deal with those people.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Hmm, I was going off of the definition I remembered, sophistry being the art of making the lesser argument sound like the greater argument independent of veracity. That could be wrong though
As for the second part, it seems accurate to say that they can understand more than a sound bite, but don't spare the attention for anything greater.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Nice thead. Yeah one reason people simplify things is to hide problems because they have an agenda. For instance, star trek always had some simplified explaination to the nonsense technobabble.
Fox news
simplification of issues.
But sometimes its necessary for obvious reasons...
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
I feel that deep down, most people here have a fairly sophisticated understanding of the issues. It's just that when a large number of people all try to talk to each other at once, simplications happen. We don't have an unlimited amount of each others' attention in which to make our points. When regulars get involved in the same discussions over and over, they get tired of going through all the details (both while writing and while reading) - eventually dropping everything down to buzzwords.
Stealing, in general, is bad. However, stealing food to feed you family is not (that is if you have exhausted all other options). To be able to steal with no chance of getting caught, is the fault of the system. See piracy for example: Its been reduced to stealing in the media, when it is very different from that. Many people wouldn't buy the product they've obtained illegaly.
So the astronomical compensations for the "victims" (the companies) are ridiculous. And remember, Pirate bay had over 14 million users at one time. You can't find prisons large enough to put all of those people away or demand millions of dollars from all of them whether they just shared one song or ten thousand songs.
Clearly there's a difference what is legal and illegal and what is right and wrong. Take for example to provoke someone to commit suicide. Not assist, only encourage. Out of malice. You'd have hard time convicting that person atleast in my country. It is clearly wrong, but for what crimes should we convict him/her?
Death penalty is wrong, because the system which exacts this punishment is not infallible. If you kill just one innocent, you are a murderer yourself. But it saves money, no? No... its not justice, its revenge.
Clearly the executions are inhumane: the amount of anesthetic in the syringe barely puts you to sleep: higher dozes are used in surgery. The electric chair is not a sure way to die: people have been known to fry for several minutes before dying. Even surviving the first few jolts. If the fall in hanging doesn't break your neck, you'll slowly strangle to death. Hell, even in guillotine the head survives a 14 seconds or so after being dismembered. Who knows if they feel pain? Aside from the one in the electric chair, they can't scream. Do you think this is right?
Then there's euthanasia. Euthanasia is illegal in many countries! I think it should be legal. If the patient is capable of making an informed decision to end his/her suffering, I'm all for it.
What is legal may be still wrong and what is illegal may be right. We do not live in a simple black and white world. Things may be easier to talk about as black and white issues, but you should never thinkits the true nature of things. You should always remember the shades of gray in your decisionmaking. Those details are important.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Never trust a philosophy, it's just using you to propagate itself.
I know Quirhid made this comment on my topic of "New MMO" vs "Old MMO" and the longevity of the two. The reason I did this is because there are soooooo many variables. I just wanted to focus on just a couple of things.
Look at the simple topics that get made very complicated because of anecdotal data that we all expand on and share as fact.
PS: Not everything is "shades of grey".
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Capital punishment is wrong because it is inhumane, immoral and nearly all the arguments for it are false. Only thing for it is that its cheap. If we can't reform someone, we might as well save a penny and end the poor bastard. Just because I have chosen a side doesn't mean I am all for it. And just because it is black and white in the voting booth, doesn't make the issue black and white. Surely you can understand that.
It is like the few past political elections I feel I've not voted for the "best candidate" but rather the "lesser evil" so to speak. It is like many polls here. Actually, how I felt about AIBQuirky's thread was that there were no good choices in the poll. Firstly, a complicated topic was reduced to just two options - binary. Second, both options had assetions which could not be proven true. As much as I dislike old-school MMOs, naturally I refused to answer the poll and voiced my opinion about it.
Much of the nonlinear-linear discussion is a matter of perception. It is not a black and white issue. Many threads have discussed about what makes a sandbox and what makes a themepark. I believe, In truth there is only a handful, if any, features that make of either one. It is more in the how those features are made and how they interact with other features. Still, its very difficult to put a definition on it what combination makes a themepark and what makes a sandbox.
I can give you two examples of games which stand firmly in the gray area: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and Grand Theft Auto IV. I challenge you to put them into one or the other camp and tell me why.
It is pointless to even try to draw a clear line between the two, since most of the games are more or less somewhere in between. But I bet discussing whether game X is a sandbox or not is an endless source of argument. Atleast as long as you insist on seeing things as black and white. I'm sort of freed of that. I can refuse to put a jersey on if neither team suits me.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Everything is a shade of gray.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky