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Udder Nonsense

eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

So the other day there was this thread about Scarlet Blade and it's rather skimpy armor. I don't know much about this game, but someone mentioned it was only female models in the game and it got me thinking. In most mmo's that I've played, I would say there is a highest percentage of female avatars and i'm doubting it because mostly women play mmorpgs.  I think it boils down to a large portion of male players, would prefer to see a female character.

 

Now I don't want to let this thread derail into "why I play female characters" discussion so please don't take it there.

 

There are definately differences between men and women that go beyond the types of equipment each is packing. Men are statistically heavier, stronger, taller, and so on.  So why are these differences not kept within games like mmorpgs?

 

Now I'm not implying that female characters should be gimped either, but what if the females were disadvantaged in one area and strengthened in another.  And more, that the female characters were designed in such a way that would benefit the "average" female play preference.

 

unfortunately, I do not claim to understand what an "average" female gamer would want, nor do I imply that women deserve any less than what a man deserves.  I'm not trying to be sexist, or bias, or create any angst.

 

I simply suggest, that creating a bit of disparity between the choices of sex in a videogame, may create a better balance within the game world. I suggest that when people decide what sex they choose to play, they are left to choose between the sacrifices of that choice as well as the benefits.  

 

EDIT: The reason I titled it so, is as a play on words about the excessive use of the jiggly bits in many modern mmo's.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

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Comments

  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Eden Prairie, MNPosts: 338Member
    I actually second this. There's definitely truth to it, albeit not 100%, but there IS truth in it. Women on average being typically smaller and more graceful might grab a dexterity bonus or somesuch, whereas certain full plate tank armors or the like might be restricted to the 6'4" Schwarzennegerish male. It's not being sexist to make suggestions of this type in the least, just realistic. Equality comes down to rights, not physical features, skills, etc. It might be time someone looks along lines like this to break out of the stale mold MMO's are stuck in lately, at least a tiny bit.
  • PhoebesPhoebes Posts: 87Member Common
    Sounds interesting, but it seems people get offended very easily these days, especially when it comes to race or gender.
  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    As a dairy goat farmer, I approve of your pun. image

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    I really have no preference. I just pick which sex I am making the character based on my race/class combo.

     

    For instance...

    Warrior Human - Male

    Warrior - elf - Female

     

    Cleric - always Female

     

    Ranger Human - Male

    Ranger Elf - Female

     

    Dwarf - always Male

    Etc, etc, etc.

     

    I have no issue with what you say as it makes sense. But as others said...people are touchy and ready to whine easily.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    Having the disparity is like 80s RPGs.

    The reson the female characters are all built perfect is because...the males are too. People just don't think twice about what they look like.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    If gender equility bothers you, but you have no difficulty in the jump in power between level 1 and level 2 characters or the relative equality of humans and elves, then I think it's pretty clear that consciously or unconsciously, you're just searching for an excuse to validate a sexist viewpoint.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon

    There are some games where sex has an influence on your character's stats. The problem is that, just as race, sex influences your character's looks greatly. Letting it influence stats would "force" optimisers (most MMO players in one way or another) to pick a certain sex for their char. People don't like that.

    That's why many modern games make racial bonuses so tiny they don't matter much.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    In a politically correct world you are not going to see any attempt to give different genders stat differences. Unless we are talking about 36-24-36.

    Modern MMO’s have moved in the direction of ironing out all distinctions between players. Reducing or eliminating differences in races, classes, PvE v PvP ability, usefulness in group v soloing. So introducing gender based differences would never take of.

    It also seems a bit pointless to me, MMO’s have much deeper problems to worry about.

  • WalterWhiteWalterWhite CardiffPosts: 394Member Uncommon

    I always make my melee characters male and my casters female. Don't ask me why, I just think they look better.

    As for Mass Effect, I play Male Shepard if I play Paragon and I play female Shepard if I play Renegade as that's the way I prefer the acting the voice actors potray those roles, and the fact that Renegade Femshep is more fun too.

    image

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    If gender equility bothers you, but you have no difficulty in the jump in power between level 1 and level 2 characters or the relative equality of humans and elves, then I think it's pretty clear that consciously or unconsciously, you're just searching for an excuse to validate a sexist viewpoint.

    If you can't read my OP and see that I am clearly NOT being sexist in any way, than I think you have shown that conciously or unconciously, you have your own sexist viewpoint. Just because things are different, doesn't make them unequal.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Now I'm not implying that female characters should be gimped either, but what if the females were disadvantaged in one area and strengthened in another.  And more, that the female characters were designed in such a way that would benefit the "average" female play preference.

    I simply suggest, that creating a bit of disparity between the choices of sex in a videogame, may create a better balance within the game world. I suggest that when people decide what sex they choose to play, they are left to choose between the sacrifices of that choice as well as the benefits. 

    Mainly because it doesn't work.

    You've seen players argue (incessantly) over minor differences like Racial Abilities when discussing PVP, right?

    Now consider balancing strength vs speed...is possibility, at all, that one won't be analyzed to be "better" than the other?

    Resulting in--yep, SoTM (sex of the month).

    Gamers are already much too prone to stampeding from class to class or build to build...even server to server seeking the tiniest of "I Win" buttons.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    For me it depends on how the character model looks and how they look in the armor. In LOTRO all my characters were male. IN GW1, it was 50/50 with a male monk and ele, female warrior and necro (both of these in male characters looked terrible). In GW2 I have one lvl 80 male Charr Guardian and  a lvl 80 Female Norn Ranger and planning to start others, just haven't decided.. In TERA, well this game is hard since one race is only female and one is furry ( :-)  ) but it was 50/50.

     

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Now I'm not implying that female characters should be gimped either, but what if the females were disadvantaged in one area and strengthened in another.  And more, that the female characters were designed in such a way that would benefit the "average" female play preference.

    I simply suggest, that creating a bit of disparity between the choices of sex in a videogame, may create a better balance within the game world. I suggest that when people decide what sex they choose to play, they are left to choose between the sacrifices of that choice as well as the benefits. 

    Mainly because it doesn't work.

    You've seen players argue (incessantly) over minor differences like Racial Abilities when discussing PVP, right?

    Now consider balancing strength vs speed...is possibility, at all, that one won't be analyzed to be "better" than the other?

    Resulting in--yep, SoTM (sex of the month).

    Gamers are already much too prone to stampeding from class to class or build to build...even server to server seeking the tiniest of "I Win" buttons.

    I see your point, and I realize that any sort of excuse for people to complain will be overblown. Does that mean the logical solution is to remove any disparity between classes completely, as well as every possible thing that might be different?

    Your argument could be put against weapons as well, people complaining because daggers dont do as much as halberds, etc.

    Basically, I'm just saying that these balancing issues exist anyhow. I'm just curious to what people think of having them applied in regards to sex. 

    You could also consider it like this. Having men receive a +20 bonus to strength and women receiving a +20 bonus to dexterity, is really no different that having Orc's receive a +20 bonus to strength and elves receiving a +20 bonus to dexterity.

     

     

    And remember, the reasons that I was directed down this line of thinking is that a developer was making a game with no male characters.  To me, it seems the "sex sells" aspect of mmorpg games creates a progression towards a game world filled with  childlike adults and female characters running around.  So if it's not a disparity between a particular sex's mechanics, than what can we do to bring more male characters into game worlds?

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • Angier2758Angier2758 Mt. Prospect, ILPosts: 1,011Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    If gender equility bothers you, but you have no difficulty in the jump in power between level 1 and level 2 characters or the relative equality of humans and elves, then I think it's pretty clear that consciously or unconsciously, you're just searching for an excuse to validate a sexist viewpoint.

     Are you seriously thinking that men and women aren't different?

    It's not sexist to say that women could have a dexterity bonus while men have a strength bonus.  Generally that's correct.. sorry to inform you.  Not always... but generally.

    I'd also give women a disease resistance over men too... or a diplomacy bonus.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    I assume you're talking human. No one would confuse a female Asura with Barbie. Norn women can be on the thick side. Charr females don't even have the "mammaries" that most humanoid females sport. 

     

    Species matters.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member

    The problem with this idea is it takes women and men as statistics. I for one fall into the general classification of what you mention for women,but there are some that do not. 

    I think about Game of Thrones and Brienne of Tarth. For a woman she is super strong and not so graceful. They do play on her "womanly weaknesses" but overall she is a very strong "manly" woman character. I think to be completely fair everyone should be equal. If you want to be a beefy woman, then so be it! If you want to be a scrawny man, have at it good sir! 

    In the end I like choices and diversity, but I believe that having everything equal makes sense. Taking an average just shows you the average, not every individual member. Think about this...would you want to fight some of those body builder girls?

    image

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    The problem with this idea is it takes women and men as statistics. I for one fall into the general classification of what you mention for women,but there are some that do not. 

    I think about Game of Thrones and Brienne of Tarth. For a woman she is super strong and not so graceful. They do play on her "womanly weaknesses" but overall she is a very strong "manly" woman character. I think to be completely fair everyone should be equal. If you want to be a beefy woman, then so be it! If you want to be a scrawny man, have at it good sir! 

    In the end I like choices and diversity, but I believe that having everything equal makes sense. Taking an average just shows you the average, not every individual member. Think about this...would you want to fight some of those body builder girls?

    Actually that brings up something I would rather see.  I don't support trait differences in male vs female characters, yes there would be some somewhat accurate generalizations.  However those generalizations have more to do with form resulting in function than gender resulting in form (yes we know hormonal differences exist which influence the form which then determine the function, lets not go there).

    I would be very interested in having the body shape you choose determine your stats, or the other way you determine your stats which then dictate your body form.  That could be kinda fun.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Now I'm not implying that female characters should be gimped either, but what if the females were disadvantaged in one area and strengthened in another.  And more, that the female characters were designed in such a way that would benefit the "average" female play preference.

    I simply suggest, that creating a bit of disparity between the choices of sex in a videogame, may create a better balance within the game world. I suggest that when people decide what sex they choose to play, they are left to choose between the sacrifices of that choice as well as the benefits. 

    Mainly because it doesn't work.

    You've seen players argue (incessantly) over minor differences like Racial Abilities when discussing PVP, right?

    Now consider balancing strength vs speed...is possibility, at all, that one won't be analyzed to be "better" than the other?

    Resulting in--yep, SoTM (sex of the month).

    Gamers are already much too prone to stampeding from class to class or build to build...even server to server seeking the tiniest of "I Win" buttons.

     +1 for SoTM.

    I am still laughing.

    Edit: If you want to vary stats, tie them to the sliders at creation. Big arms = +strength, Small = +dex, yadda yadda. Then man or woman or smoothie, stats would match body type.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    "Milk: It does an MMO Good."
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    And remember, the reasons that I was directed down this line of thinking is that a developer was making a game with no male characters.  To me, it seems the "sex sells" aspect of mmorpg games creates a progression towards a game world filled with  childlike adults and female characters running around.  So if it's not a disparity between a particular sex's mechanics, than what can we do to bring more male characters into game worlds?

    Typically such a game results in buru-sera models (a few screenshots and most sane people would avoid it anyway).

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    I have rarely if ever been able to create a male toon in a MMO that didn't look stupid in some way.

    Probably because these games are mostly made by men for males, but it's a lot, lot, lot easier to make a good looking female toon than a good looking male toon.

    And no, I don't mean "good looking" as in attractive but more of "doesn't look unnatural and terribly ugly."

    And yes, that of course applies to humans and human-like characters mostly.

    Stuff like dwarves/gnomes/Charr/Asura etc. etc. generally have much better male characters.

    So apparently both Western and Eastern MMO devs just suck at creating likeable options for human males.

    TERA actually did a fairly good job of making human males that could look "manly" enough and "cool" without looking too gruff or like young boys/anime characters (though they had that too.)

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    The problem with this idea is it takes women and men as statistics. I for one fall into the general classification of what you mention for women,but there are some that do not. 

    I think about Game of Thrones and Brienne of Tarth. For a woman she is super strong and not so graceful. They do play on her "womanly weaknesses" but overall she is a very strong "manly" woman character. I think to be completely fair everyone should be equal. If you want to be a beefy woman, then so be it! If you want to be a scrawny man, have at it good sir! 

    In the end I like choices and diversity, but I believe that having everything equal makes sense. Taking an average just shows you the average, not every individual member. Think about this...would you want to fight some of those body builder girls?

    Actually that brings up something I would rather see.  I don't support trait differences in male vs female characters, yes there would be some somewhat accurate generalizations.  However those generalizations have more to do with form resulting in function than gender resulting in form (yes we know hormonal differences exist which influence the form which then determine the function, lets not go there).

    I would be very interested in having the body shape you choose determine your stats, or the other way you determine your stats which then dictate your body form.  That could be kinda fun.

    This is a great expansion on what I was thinking. If a person wanted to have gigantic proportions, then there would be encumbrances, and dainty waisted fashion models couldn't even wield a greatsword.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I have rarely if ever been able to create a male toon in a MMO that didn't look stupid in some way.

    Probably because these games are mostly made by men for males, but it's a lot, lot, lot easier to make a good looking female toon than a good looking male toon.

    And no, I don't mean "good looking" as in attractive but more of "doesn't look unnatural and terribly ugly."

    And yes, that of course applies to humans and human-like characters mostly.

    Stuff like dwarves/gnomes/Charr/Asura etc. etc. generally have much better male characters.

    So apparently both Western and Eastern MMO devs just suck at creating likeable options for human males.

    TERA actually did a fairly good job of making human males that could look "manly" enough and "cool" without looking too gruff or like young boys/anime characters (though they had that too.)

    >cough< Excuse me...

     

    image

     

    But I look good.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by eyelolled
    So the other day there was this thread about Scarlet Blade and it's rather skimpy armor. I don't know much about this game, but someone mentioned it was only female models in the game and it got me thinking. In most mmo's that I've played, I would say there is a highest percentage of female avatars and i'm doubting it because mostly women play mmorpgs.  I think it boils down to a large portion of male players, would prefer to see a female character.Now I don't want to let this thread derail into "why I play female characters" discussion so please don't take it there.There are definately differences between men and women that go beyond the types of equipment each is packing. Men are statistically heavier, stronger, taller, and so on.  So why are these differences not kept within games like mmorpgs?Now I'm not implying that female characters should be gimped either, but what if the females were disadvantaged in one area and strengthened in another.  And more, that the female characters were designed in such a way that would benefit the "average" female play preference.unfortunately, I do not claim to understand what an "average" female gamer would want, nor do I imply that women deserve any less than what a man deserves.  I'm not trying to be sexist, or bias, or create any angst.I simply suggest, that creating a bit of disparity between the choices of sex in a videogame, may create a better balance within the game world. I suggest that when people decide what sex they choose to play, they are left to choose between the sacrifices of that choice as well as the benefits.  EDIT: The reason I titled it so, is as a play on words about the excessive use of the jiggly bits in many modern mmo's.
    First off, I applaud the thread title! Got me reading it :)

    I think there should be trade-offs between male and female characters. Men and women are definitely not the same, for sure. Right now, the only difference is the "jiggly bits" you mentioned.

    I have no clue what would be good here or what would even work. So if men are stronger, maybe women are more dextrous? If men are made of hardier stuff, maybe women are more intelligent? You start messing with attributes and soon you'll see all male fighters, all female spell users and everything in between.

    I would not want to be a dev on this game but would like to see what they come up with :) Right now, it is the "take the easy road" mentality and I have to admit I can not blame them.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Virtual cross-dressing is popular with a lot of gamers. Never understood it myself, it's like lusting after yourself.

    /shrug

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

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