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Sony feels that F2P is the only way to go with MMO's

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by winter
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Truth be told they will never keep up with the indrustry leader's that still use P2P format.

    To whom are you reffering?

    Blizzard? No one has, or ever will, come close to that "leader".

    CCP? PS2 has nearly twice as many people logging in every week as Eve has subs.

    Trion? See above.

    Who else should we be looking to?

     and yet only a estimated 10% of the players that log into PS2 every week spend any money. (Some more then a $15 a month sub, many less) So basically if PS2 has twice as many players as you state but only 10% as many paying then Sony is making only rouglhy 20% what CCP is. (yes i know this is very rough estimate as CCP has a a cash shop as well, and the PS2 10% PS2 players might only send a dollar or might spend $50)

       Number of players especially when the majority are not buying into the cash shop does not equal earnings, and say what you will but less earnings does mean less money put to developement, patching, and content.

    You forget the whales, a small percentage of the paying players, who pay a lot more than $15 a month. That is where the true money is.

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    of course f2p is the way to go...

    It uncaps the ceiling for how much people can pay (aka 15.99 per month), it allows a smaller amount of people to spend a larger amount of money thus allowing for other people to pay small amounts if nothing at all and yet increasing the playerbase at the same time.

    Why wouldn't they do it?

    Personally I hate the idea of people not paying their fair share but when a company says "it's ok, someone else will pay your fair share and then some, it's hard to argue.

    not for mmo's but interesting commentary nevertheless... nsfw

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6755-Breaking-the-Bones-of-Business?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

    What is the "fair share"?  Who gets to decide that?  In a sub-free model with a cash shop it seems the company is saying it's fair to log on to their servers for no additional charge.  They get a populated game world, players get others to play with, and the company has potential revenue right there.

    The fair share comes in, in my opinion of course, when they start charging for things players want.  If you don't want anything then being there and spending your time is what is fair.  Paying for what you use is fair.  So if someone wants to pay $30 a month for extra stuff, then that is their fair share.  If someone only wants to buy $10 worth of "stuff" every once in a while that is their fair share.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    of course f2p is the way to go...

    It uncaps the ceiling for how much people can pay (aka 15.99 per month), it allows a smaller amount of people to spend a larger amount of money thus allowing for other people to pay small amounts if nothing at all and yet increasing the playerbase at the same time.

    Why wouldn't they do it?

    Personally I hate the idea of people not paying their fair share but when a company says "it's ok, someone else will pay your fair share and then some, it's hard to argue.

    not for mmo's but interesting commentary nevertheless... nsfw

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6755-Breaking-the-Bones-of-Business?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all

    TY TY TY this video is 100% TRUTH!!!! And This is the main reason why I loath F2P MMO's or games for that matter. I just wish more people would see F2P for what it is and think about it before they spend hard earn cash into the greedy pockets of F2P games.

    In the last couple of years, I've spent about $300 on Rift, $30 on TSW, $60 on GW2, $75 on EQ2 (included 3 months of Gold) and $20 on Tera.  When my Rift sub runs out May 15, then I will be locked out of content that I've paid for.  Which one is the greedy bastard?

  • PaladrinkPaladrink SantiagoPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Says the man/company that ran every P2P MMO they ever produced into the ground, by neglect, ineptitude, and mismanagement. Even the ones that "accidentally" started out well.

    "Yeah.. it must be the business model..."

    Dumbass.

    Plenty of people pay for WoW, Eve, and other games.

    SOE has just not put out any game worth paying for in the last 5-6 years.

     

    People are tired of paying for "mediocre" games and for the next "clone with a twist."

    That does not mean there is anything wrong with the sub model, just the offerings.

     

    That is the problem. Lack of quality, not one business model vs another.

    ^^

    The winner is...

     

    Well to be honest i've always admired DDO market, but again is a BS market, you surely can get to "max" level without paying a dime, but that for sure will take an insane ammount of time and boredoom, of playing the same instances in almost every server available to collect Turbine Points to later buy them on your real server, then delete your characters and begin again the painful process...

    What i have described there is the "old" model of F2P, in reality Turbine did a lot of cash with DDO, those visionaries who liked the game at year 1 decided to spend $200 on the game and get as many points as they could and went F2P forever owning everything on the game as much as a P2P.

    I would not mind to spend $200 on a game that i know would enjoy, but lets be honest, only EQ1 and WoW had keept me going for more than 6 years (thats 1080 dollars right there that i would blast them again if the game is right), But can i expect this freaking industry to make something as good as those? certainly not, I been waiting for a game to blow my money on, but something that i feel its worth it, and sadly the market is so divided, and even the customers right now are crappy, they want the fast experience and the "FPS" experience, thinking that the old models were bad, they may have not been the best but surely can be improved .

    Either way, the P2P market is nowhere dead, and as our fellow up there said, this interview comes from the most hideous man on the industry. P2P market is still there, and will be there for real good products, and if they want to raise the cut hell i would pay it if its the right game, but not shit like DarkFail, SWToR or Tera, for something good.

    The business model is now to change because of the consumer hype is a better selling point than the game it self, hence they have to change it to absorb as much money as they can in the fastest way possible from those who can pay or want to pay to win. Well tell you that will happen, and its happening, but good gamers will always have a noce for those.

    What we do in life, echoes in eternity.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,887Member Uncommon

    It turned out we couldn't trust Arenanet not to shaft their core players even though Guild Wars 2 is top quality, AAA, and was buy to play not free to play.

     

    They still turned around and introduced top end gear that required a dungeon grind.  A grind that could be considerably shortened with cash to gold.  And to make sure of that, they nerfed droprates across the board.  

     

    They knew it would piss off their core players who want to actually play the game and not whip out the wallet for shinies.  They even pissed off the people who were willing to buy gold in order to purchase exotics.  But they didn't care because they knew both groups were going to spend very little after the initial bank slots, character slots, vanity items, and then those exotic gear buyers.  And out there waiting was plenty of untapped grinder wallets.  So they shafted us and let us yell the forums down.  So what?  Didn't hurt their bottom line a bit.

     

    So if we can't trust Arenanet not to screw players over less than three months after launch, if we can't trust a company with no prior reputation for screwing its players over, how in the hell would we even consider trusting Sony, a company that does have a bad reputation among gamers?

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Madimorga

    So if we can't trust Arenanet not to screw players over less than three months after launch, if we can't trust a company with no prior reputation for screwing its players over, how in the hell would we even consider trusting Sony, a company that does have a bad reputation among gamers?

    Why do you need trust at all? Play Sony's game for free. No trust needed. Buy only the items you know you will enjoy. No trust needed.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,887Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Madimorga

    So if we can't trust Arenanet not to screw players over less than three months after launch, if we can't trust a company with no prior reputation for screwing its players over, how in the hell would we even consider trusting Sony, a company that does have a bad reputation among gamers?

    Why do you need trust at all? Play Sony's game for free. No trust needed. Buy only the items you know you will enjoy. No trust needed.

     

    Oh I will happily play for free.  But people doing that won't pay the bills.  Of course like all F2P devs Sony will try to lure players in and get them to spend money but there is no point in spending that money on a game that might suit my tastes at the moment but due to the desire of Sony to make yet more money will change shortly to entice more spending.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Madimorga

    So if we can't trust Arenanet not to screw players over less than three months after launch, if we can't trust a company with no prior reputation for screwing its players over, how in the hell would we even consider trusting Sony, a company that does have a bad reputation among gamers?

    Why do you need trust at all? Play Sony's game for free. No trust needed. Buy only the items you know you will enjoy. No trust needed.

     

    Oh I will happily play for free.  But people doing that won't pay the bills.  Of course like all F2P devs Sony will try to lure players in and get them to spend money but there is no point in spending that money on a game that might suit my tastes at the moment but due to the desire of Sony to make yet more money will change shortly to entice more spending.

    Most players won't pay the bills anyway. The whole F2P industry is supported by a small minority of whales. And since you don't seem to be one, you don't even need to care.

    If the game is there .... play it and be happy that someone else is paying. If it is gone .. well . it is free anyway, and there are 100 other games to kill time with.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,887Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Madimorga

    So if we can't trust Arenanet not to screw players over less than three months after launch, if we can't trust a company with no prior reputation for screwing its players over, how in the hell would we even consider trusting Sony, a company that does have a bad reputation among gamers?

    Why do you need trust at all? Play Sony's game for free. No trust needed. Buy only the items you know you will enjoy. No trust needed.

     

    Oh I will happily play for free.  But people doing that won't pay the bills.  Of course like all F2P devs Sony will try to lure players in and get them to spend money but there is no point in spending that money on a game that might suit my tastes at the moment but due to the desire of Sony to make yet more money will change shortly to entice more spending.

    Most players won't pay the bills anyway. The whole F2P industry is supported by a small minority of whales. And since you don't seem to be one, you don't even need to care.

    If the game is there .... play it and be happy that someone else is paying. If it is gone .. well . it is free anyway, and there are 100 other games to kill time with.

    That's exactly my plan, play free and game hop, especially since no devs seem to want to suit my tastes by not forcing me to group and grind.  Actually it works out well for me personally due to my play style.  

     

    Yet I'm sad because I've played MMOs for over a decade and most of that time was spent in Anarchy Online, my first MMO (which was great until the level 200-220 group grind).

     

    I had hoped to find another MMO home to settle in and spend some years with.  I can see that won't happen.  And I can see a lot of people are going to feel angry and ripped off as devs try to make as much money as they can while everything churns faster and faster.  It's a sad end.  And at this point it seems to be the end of my financial support for MMOs.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Madimorga
     

    That's exactly my plan, play free and game hop, especially since no devs seem to want to suit my tastes by not forcing me to group and grind.  Actually it works out well for me personally due to my play style.  

     

    Yet I'm sad because I've played MMOs for over a decade and most of that time was spent in Anarchy Online, my first MMO (which was great until the level 200-220 group grind).

     

    I had hoped to find another MMO home to settle in and spend some years with.  I can see that won't happen.  And I can see a lot of people are going to feel angry and ripped off as devs try to make as much money as they can while everything churns faster and faster.  It's a sad end.  And at this point it seems to be the end of my financial support for MMOs.

    That is also my ongoing and planned playstyle .. F2P and game hop. However, i am not sad .. i feel good about it. In fact, i use to have a "home" in EQ, and then WOW. I found that very limiting and too much focus on one game. Why should i be shackled to experience only ONE game (or mostly one game), when there are so many fun ones out there?

    I don't think i want a "home" in a game anymore. For me, it is about getting variable gameplay experience. It is liberating with no commitment and string attached to a single game.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,887Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    That is also my ongoing and planned playstyle .. F2P and game hop. However, i am not sad .. i feel good about it. In fact, i use to have a "home" in EQ, and then WOW. I found that very limiting and too much focus on one game. Why should i be shackled to experience only ONE game (or mostly one game), when there are so many fun ones out there?

    I don't think i want a "home" in a game anymore. For me, it is about getting variable gameplay experience. It is liberating with no commitment and string attached to a single game.

     

    I felt more immersed when I only played one game for a long time.  Even WoW (which I played for about a year in part because my old computer wouldn't handle other games) was more immersive than anything I've played since, because it was all I played.

     

    It's true there are upsides.  Free is definitely nice, I'm so sick of spending hundreds of dollars every year on new games or games I haven't tried yet only to be disappointed.  Now that money can go to other things and to savings.

     

    Variety.  There are some beautiful game worlds being turned out, the old ugly free to play hurts-my-eyes days are over.  I look forward to exploring those worlds.

     

    Fresh horizons.  If I'm willing to check out even the most cash shop riddled pay to win grinder just to wander around for a few days or weeks that means there are always new games to try.

     

    Maybe if a whole lot of people start doing what I'm doing and the whales get sick of buying shinies instead of playing for them, maybe just maybe devs will respond to customer pressure and come up with a game world and a payment structure that will entice me to stay and spend.  

     

     

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • TazlorTazlor NYC, NYPosts: 864Member
    That's because they can't produce an MMO worth paying for.
  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Let's face it people F2P is here to stay, there isn't much detractors can do to avoid it.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Madimorga
     

     

    I felt more immersed when I only played one game for a long time.  Even WoW (which I played for about a year in part because my old computer wouldn't handle other games) was more immersive than anything I've played since, because it was all I played.

     It depends on what "long" means. Everything becomes boring after a while, even WOW. I played WOW for 3-4 years .. it got quite boring at the end. And i found myself kicking myself for all the well rated games that i did not have time to try. Now i have a huge backlog to go back to.

    It's true there are upsides.  Free is definitely nice, I'm so sick of spending hundreds of dollars every year on new games or games I haven't tried yet only to be disappointed.  Now that money can go to other things and to savings.

    Yeh. Or even if you want to spend a little on F2P games, it is totally optional. So far, i have not yet spent a cent but may be i will buy a hero off Marvel Heroes if the combat is really good.

    Variety.  There are some beautiful game worlds being turned out, the old ugly free to play hurts-my-eyes days are over.  I look forward to exploring those worlds.

    Not just that .. but also new combat mechanics, and story missions. In fact, in F2P you can afford to play through the content and then move on. I play some of the STO missions like a SP game because a) there is no other trek game, b) it is decent SP content.

    Fresh horizons.  If I'm willing to check out even the most cash shop riddled pay to win grinder just to wander around for a few days or weeks that means there are always new games to try.

     Yeah . there is practically nothing to lose but a little time.

    Maybe if a whole lot of people start doing what I'm doing and the whales get sick of buying shinies instead of playing for them, maybe just maybe devs will respond to customer pressure and come up with a game world and a payment structure that will entice me to stay and spend.  

     I doubt that is goign to happen. In the last 2-3 years, the F2P market has been growing. In fact, people are spending MORE, not less, into F2P games. Look at it on the bright side, they are funding even more fun for you.

     

     

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,599Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    Those who dont see pay to play going anywhere are the same children who dont see a house payment, nor bar tabs.

    Most mmorpg players have no problem wanting to spend $15~$20/month on their game. It is only those ultra-wannabe casual children who dont wish to subscribe to anything... cuz their so neurotic, they cant sit still for one game.

    $240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

    Fixed

     

    Those who dont see free to play going anywhere are the same children who dont see a house payment, nor bar tabs.

    Most mmorpg players have no problem wanting to spend $15~$20/month on their game. It is only those ultra-wannabe casual children who dont wish to buy anything... cuz their so neurotic, they cant sit still for one game.

    $240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

     

     

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member


    Originally posted by rojo6934
    Originally posted by Burntvet   That is the problem. Lack of quality, not one business model vs another.
    this ^

    both F2P, B2P, and P2P can be successful if the product has enough quality to make a profit with each model.

    I personally prefer B2P > F2P > P2P, but success still depends on how good the finished product is wether they have sub or not. The metality of ¨its low quality because its F2P¨ should end. Specially since P2P stopped delivering quality years ago and still charge.



    agree with both.
    b2p can be great model if they release small fractions of game every year or less, like Anet did with GW Proph, Factions, Nightfall, even EotN can be added to this list, I mean game doesn't need to be apart it can be addon either. I have no idea why they gave up this model and started to fail into GW2 (took over 5 years and seems to be major fail or one more mediocre game in a large market).
    If not f2p or p2p depend on quality.
    I'm agree to pay 15$ for WoW or real equivalent, but not for less good. I was agree to pay 5$ for runescape but not agree to pay 8$ beside they have other problems.
    If only Aion was more then eye candy... and seems Tera too...
    Sony make good TV but can't recall any good game from them...

    Shame but I feel like I have only WoW to play... EVE seems good but SiFi is not my style so far.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • GN-003GN-003 NA, HIPosts: 78Member
    It might be, but I also feel that publishers/developers are using payment models as a scapegoat for their subpar products (ie SWTOR). Maybe if these developers stopped offering us derivative MMOs that have the longevity of a Tic-Tac, we'd be more inclined to sub. "The game did poorly? It's the consumers, they just don't want to pay. It has nothing to do with the game itself. Nope, no siree..."
  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by GN-003
    It might be, but I also feel that publishers/developers are using payment models as a scapegoat for their subpar products (ie SWTOR). Maybe if these developers stopped offering us derivative MMOs that have the longevity of a Tic-Tac, we'd be more inclined to sub. "The game did poorly? It's the consumers, they just don't want to pay. It has nothing to do with the game itself. Nope, no siree..."

    TYVM I agree 100%

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Superman0X


    $240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

     

     

    Avid gamers do not play only one game. Their gaming budget probably will be much larger than $240 but that would be spread over many games.

    I can afford to spend $240 on games, but why would i *want* to do so on only one game when there are so many out there.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by Superman0X
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    Those who dont see pay to play going anywhere are the same children who dont see a house payment, nor bar tabs.

    Most mmorpg players have no problem wanting to spend $15~$20/month on their game. It is only those ultra-wannabe casual children who dont wish to subscribe to anything... cuz their so neurotic, they cant sit still for one game.

    $240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

    Fixed

     

    Those who dont see free to play going anywhere are the same children who dont see a house payment, nor bar tabs.

    Most mmorpg players have no problem wanting to spend $15~$20/month on their game. It is only those ultra-wannabe casual children who dont wish to buy anything... cuz their so neurotic, they cant sit still for one game.

    $240/ year is peanuts to an advid gamer... too much to an adolecent who doesnt have an income.

     

     

     

    Thnx..

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • iamthekilleriamthekiller Port Richey, FLPosts: 93Member
    I think what sony means is..."We can't justify a brutal p2w cash shop in a subbed mmo, and as us corporate stiffs here at sony know...P2W cash shops are far more profitable then subs, but let's just pretend we are doing the genre a favor and focus on the F2P aspect of it! Otherwise we will have to hire professional tear catchers lest the world be satured by the crying of children."
  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Sony has practically dragged everyone one of their games passed everquest into the ground, and then dragged it far enough that the skin peeled off miles ago. They can't say anything about what the best payment style is, They fail at both P2P and F2P.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

    EQNext will be subscription base only... and demand a high premium ($20/month)

    SMed talk about item/cash shops, etc..  was where he thought social gaming was going..   EQnext wasn't included in that sentiment.

     

     

     

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    Sony has practically dragged everyone one of their games passed everquest into the ground, and then dragged it far enough that the skin peeled off miles ago. They can't say anything about what the best payment style is, They fail at both P2P and F2P.

    And yet somehow i always end up playing SOE MMOS more than any other so called AAA MMOS on the market. Even now i am subbed to EQ2 and Vanguard and no MMO in market can touch these two MMOS when it comes to content and features especially EQ2.

    Its funny that how failure is defined on these forums. yes SOE screwed up with SWG but even then i put thousands of hours in that game past NGE because there was nothing like it on the market. it had a long 7 years before it was put down to rest. I won't call it a failure.

    Vanguard was in such a bad shape after release that no company would touch it so when SOE took over they actually did a favor to Sigil because only other option was to shut it down. Do i blame SOE for not dumping more money in to the game that no one wanted to play? they kept it alive and that is more than enough for me otherwise i would never get a chance to play that gem.

    And who in their right mind can call EQ2 a failure? 8 years and still going strong with 9 expansions under its belt and more to come soon, with amount of content that can put any MMO in market to shame. Entire game oozes of personality and quality.

    So what games exactly except for SWG they screwed up so bad that they dragged everyone off? i think a little resonable opinion is in order without emotional outbursts and exaggeration.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Says the man/company that ran every P2P MMO they ever produced into the ground, by neglect, ineptitude, and mismanagement. Even the ones that "accidentally" started out well.

    "Yeah.. it must be the business model..."

    Dumbass.

    Plenty of people pay for WoW, Eve, and other games.

    SOE has just not put out any game worth paying for in the last 5-6 years.

     

    People are tired of paying for "mediocre" games and for the next "clone with a twist."

    That does not mean there is anything wrong with the sub model, just the offerings.

     

    That is the problem. Lack of quality, not one business model vs another.

    Thread should have ended right here

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