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Let's Talk RvR: DAoC Veterans Welcome
nate1980
Member UncommonPosts: 2,063
Okay, so I admit that I've been focusing on the negative when it comes to this game and on top of that, I haven't followed the game hardly at all. I just picked up some of the bad things, such as faction locked races, factions in general, classes, and other things. Nevermind all of that, and let's talk RvR, since I finally decided to read up on the game at their website.
My first MMORPG ever was DAoC, and I started playing that in 2002. I played that game for years before switching to SWG. Now I never looked at DAoC as a PvP game like most others on this website did. I enjoyed the group grinding experience with the 40+ classes more than anything else, but I did enjoy the battlegrounds and some RvR.
A lot of people are getting hyped up about ESO having RvR and I wonder why. What about DAoC's RvR did you like specifically. The overall experience was definitely fun for a time and the best PvP I've been apart of in this genre, but I feel people are forgetting all the bad things aswell. I name some of them and you all give your own pros and cons I guess.
1. Buff Bots. I hated people who duo boxed, since it gave an unfair advantage to single account players like myself. However, I do think having distinct class roles in a group PvP game is important. (Buffers, controllers, healers, tanks, and dps)
2. 1 min mezzes and various stuns. One thing I hate the most in all MMORPG's concerning PvP is stunlocking. That's when several players jump on your ass and alternatly stun you so you can't fight back. Instant death. I think some limited stunning is fine, but there should be immunity. I actually much prefer body blocking and knockbacks and knockdowns ala WAR than lots of stunning.
3. Downtime. In RvR, you spent most of your time running around looking for a fight, or getting to where the fighting was. For veteran MMO players than have reduced the amount of time they play MMORPG's (ie. 3 hours or less per night on most nights) this can be a hinderance to getting into the real action. In a 3 hour time span in a RvR game, on a lot of nights, you may spend 2 hours of that just running around, getting back to a fight after respawning, or just looking for a fight in general.
4. Ranged trumps melee. In every RvR game, aside from WAR, ranged always has the advantage, whether it be 1v1 encounters where they kite, or keep and tower defense/offense. In WAR, tanks could taunt and perform knockbacks and knockdowns, so they were more useful. In SWTOR, melee have a variety of spells and abilities to close the gap and defend against range.
So that's about all the cons I can think of. I did enjoy the Realm Ranks alternative advancement system and I hope ESO has something like it, but I have my doubts. I also didn't like GW2's version of RvR and reminded me of the bad points in this kind of PvP system. Will be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Comments
The thing I liked about RvR was that it was in the open world and not instanced. It also allowed PvE to be seperate from PvP.
Other then that could care less.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
1. I hate multi boxing too, should be a bannable offence imho
2. They've said that everyone gets a cc break that gives immunity to cc for a few secconds (I vaguely remember them saying 6 secconds somewhere, which seems long to me) but it costs stamina to use, so stun locking shouldnt be an issue
3. Yeah there needs to be a waypoint system thats not so close to the action that its just a zerg but not so far away as its a chore either imho
4. It's reticle aimed with a soft lock and theres also a dodge/roll for pvp too so melee shouldnt be at much of a disadvantage, plus we know that at least one melee class has a good gap closer, and if it becomes a range stand off you can always just use a ranged weapon and swap to a more range focussed deck
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
First i must say that I'm not really expecting AvA to feel like DAOC's RvR felt at the time. Back when I played DAOC it was my first real MMO, I still remember the first time I walked through the gates to the frontier, I was a complete MMO noob at the time (just running around seeing the world). It was awe inspriing to me then. Since then I've seen so much good and bad PVP, combat/CC systems, etc.. At this point it just comes down to PVP that is acceptable and gives my guild something to do for longer then a few months. We'll see if this turns out to be that...
Considering my viewpoint above, I can't really go back and look at DAOC's pitfalls and apply them toward ESO. It might not have any of the issues above, it could have them all, I'm not sure.
For me DAOC is at least 70% nostalgia, much like Pre-cu SWG is at this point, it's still fun, but it's no where near the experience I remember it as, simply because in my head I don't have to experience the drawbacks. As an example DAOC's controls...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
2 I actually think warhammer had the best cc system when they fixed it, short term aoe / cone cc, mid term single cc, all cc breAKs on damage. Especially the last part.
3 unless I'm playing a sandbox like eve, I think long walk is the best penalty for a hybrid / themepark. It's one of the things war got wrong, way too easy to reinforce.
4 I agree war had the best implementation of tanks in pvp, but daoc was ok, tanks were still usefull, the worst way to do tanks in pvp though is wow style "your armour is useless, just run around twating people with a 2 hander"
To sumarise daoc is one of the best 2 mmo games for pvp, along with eve.
But it also for the time very well looked after pveers, I preferred it pve wise to EQ, maybe ac was better though. It also looked after explorers & crafters.
Many games have tried to replicate its pvp, but have failed.
War, only 2 sides, too easy to reinforce, segmented.
Aion, ultimately all about the raid grinders
Aoc, buggy as fuck
Tsw, too small, too chumy in pve
Gw2, no rivalry due to no names and server shuffle, too rez zergy (though did bring back long walk)
Swtor, LOL
The closest was planetside 1, which is my 3rd favourite mmo.
Other games the come fairly close are planetside 2, chaos online and rf online
Have you tried classic DAoC recently (on uthgard)? It's not just nostalgia. The game is still fun as hell. The only thing it's missing is a good RvR population. The few times that Thidranki wasn't empty I had a ton of fun 8v8ing or zerging around. Just like the old times.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I could probably go on and on and on about open RvR for hours, but ill keep my points short but in my experience there is certain things the game needs for long last engaging RvR.
Combat, combat is at the top of my list, but i dont believe its the most important factor, but the combat cant be bland, there needs to multiple roles and playstles and all need to be viable, when a player gets board of something, they can try out something else.
Map design, maps need to have variety to them, they cant all be the same boring designs, there needs to be heaps of different variations between bases for different strategies. But on bases, the maps need to be large enough so battles flow and well, 3 factions helps this, but as we saw in PS2, there's not a great deal of flow to them, unlike PS1.
Supply and meta game, the game cant all be just combat and fighting for bases, there needs to be some meta game and enchantments to the layers of the matagame, i think supply be it through PS1's ANT or GW2s yaks, these offer very good layers to combat, allowing escorts of supply, interceptions of supply and the sieging of bases, draining supply.
Individual Goals and win condition, i think having a global win condition for a faction can be bad, especially if that win can be foreseen like a points tally in GW2, it makes people give upand feel like they're loosing, this may seem carebear of me, but iv spent along time playing PvP's and people or factions that are loosing stop playing, thats bad, while a global win condition for a faction probably can exist, an individual player still needs to be rewarded or have another goal so they feel like they have accomplished something, even in a loss. I think games should ahve a great deal of different goals to suit different players, from faction domination, achievements, leader boards, renown ranks to seeking the perfect itemisation of gear.
thats my main points of problems i always have with PVP MMORPGs.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
Is this game Dark age of camelot 2?
This forum seems to talk only about that game. Hey, isnt daoc still running? Then might wanna go play it instead?
Must it be excactly like daoc with new graphics? Really?? Is the Elder Scrolls games really that bad? Really??
When I first heard about this game I thought; "Oh dear, I love mmo's, I love the Elder scrolls singleplayer games and and..... there will be 3 factions? Didn't they have that in DaoC? Oh yes and people still claiming that the pvp was very very good in that game. Awesome, this sounds like the game for me" -That was til I started visiting the Elder Scrolls Online forums on this site.
I never ever had anything against DaoC or their players. I respected their community, the devs of that game and well... anything surrounding that game. And the pvp as I mentioned, is consider one of the best. So what I've heard.
But now, on different threads it seems like people who actually like the Elder Scroll part of this game are hardly even welcomed. Now this is DaoC Part Two!!!
Exploring?? What are you talking about, move along this game aint for you! Or reroll and reroll again!
Dungeon?? Go play WoW or something!
Roleplaying?? Go play Lord of the Rings or whatever!!
This game is 3 faction pvp!!! DaoC is back!!
This whole thing has just made me a little sad and wonder if I should just keep on playing the mmo I'm allready busy with and forget about all this...
The lore,
the exploration,
the dungeons,
the beautiful scenery,
the roleplaying,
the nostalgia,
the quests,
the pvp with three factions, yes, it actually sounds FUN!!
ooh and the music!!!
Hey, this is 3 faction pvp DaoC Style!! Skip the rest of your crappy list or move along!
But but.... I just... I mentioned three factions pvp sounded like fun...
Shut it!!!
;(
Might have to give it a shot. I've thought about it off and on since they released the classic server.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
DAoC had those things too.
DAOC was the first mmo I ever played. I've played every game under the sun and I will tell you why DAOC RvR is the best ever in my opinion.
1) FIrst of all it was completely open. If you enjoyed zerging you took keeps, and had your zerg vs zerg combat. I was a 8v8 type player and my guild would run around looking for other 8v8 groups. Which could easily be setup through the VNboards which is old school I know.
2) There is no other game that has the abilty to have a never ending character. Every game these days follows the same montra. Do pvp to get pvp gear so ur stats are better while you pve. That's it. DAOC had realm points, which allowed you to get realm abilites that could be used in pve and pvp thus allowing you to forever advance your character. The game wasn't based around gear as much as being skilled for lack of better words.
3) I have no idea why other MMO's don't copy this idea. The dungeon Darkness Falls. It was a dungeon that could only acessed by controlling the most terrority. This is amazing because it makes people have to PvP to get to the PvE content thus tying the 2 worlds together. So if you wanted to get that awesome piece of gear you had to not only gain acess, but also clean the dungeon out of baddies.
4) Battlegrounds were amazing. I hate how everygame has instanced pvp. DAOC did it right by having a zone you could zone into anytime and battle people around your level in a small non-stop open play area. So sometimes it was dead sometimes it was packed. And you had that nice keep in the middle to have as an objective. Also I must mention here you got really good xp while killing people. I see so many "PvP" servers in game being carebear because they just want to kill their 10 mobs and move on DAOC was the only game where people were ruthless. I.E. I'm level 21 and im with a couple of same level friends. I see a guy xping whoes 7-8 levels higher. If we manage to kill the guy we get heeeeps of xp. So it makes people want to actually be competitive. But back on topic
5) Class systems in this game were amazing. If you were a tank, you literally were a tank. You had terrible dps and no ability to heal. Same as a healer, you had no dps and could only heal and buff. I love this because games like Rift make it to where everyone can do anything. This doesn't promote grouping unless if you were running dungeons. If i'm a tank or a dps, I WANT to group with a healer or a hybrid healer because it will make my leveling experience better, but as far as RvR it made it better because you had a very distinctive role in pvp. Alot of people don't want to level multi chars, but DAOC didn't make the 1-50 a killer grind towords it's peek years. So you can roll multiple characters np to enjoy in pve and pvp.
6) Every realm had their own classes. It took some time to balance, but once it was balanced it was amazing. It's not like everyyyy other game different races all the same classes.
Those are just a few points about that game. Every game these day is all about getting gear that's it. It's not about a the being able to get more spells and abilities that make your character stronger. And these abilties were useable in PvE and RvR, just really was amazing and so orginal. If a game could be made that could take some of the new age ideas and mix it with the unique RvR/exp experience of daoc it would be a home run. I know daoc players know what i'm talking about.
PS. Yah my grammer sucks, thank you Sailor Jerry
Good post and I agree. I don't think TES is the series to bastardize into a DAoC type game, but I'd love to see a sequel to DAoC so we can all enjoy those times again. Alas, it'll never happen if only because people don't like to group grind, and developers won't be bothered to create 40+ different classes.
Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.
No reason to not have both - but the DAoC crowd can't see past their rose-tinted nostalgia to the concerns of others.
Imagine the outcry from them if a DAoC 2 had been developed and had elements of TES forced into it in a way which seriously impacted on the way 3-faction PvP had worked in DAoC 1.
The boards would be flooded with tears and vitriol...
Anyway...
I thinks it's likely the PvP will be good. I can't see why not.
It's a shame they had to frack one of the best things about the incredibly successful IP they are using to do it.
The obvious implication of this thread's title is of course this;
"DAoC Veterans Welcome - Elder Scrolls Veterans irrelevant..."