And going back to the original point, how are P2P games any less P2W? If you don't buy the new xpac in an expansion then you don't get to progress either, and you're still paying $15/month. The whole point of that argument is that someone claimed F2P as P2W and then went on to define the classic P2P expansion.
How are they less P2W? The big one is that a player chooses to purchase the expansion they start at the same spot as the previous guy that purchased the expansion. In a cash shop based game the player that spent $50 is 1/2 as powerful as the person that spent $100.
The real question is why would a player choose to never purchase the expansion and continue to play a P2P game? I think the whole idea of using a ridiculous scenerio in the first place is where the discussion went wrong.
I don’t think they are hiding P2W, they used to but those years have gone. What is an XP boost that allows you to get to top level more quickly and be more effective in PVP? That is P2W but already the ground rules have changed so much many or even most gamers do not regard xp boosts as P2W.
Cash shops were the first step, once you have one of those it opens up a P2W bonanza. If a game is not a MMO making nearly every game possible have an online PvP section to its gameplay is needed and that’s what has happened. Finally you need to have players in a social network where they will want to compete with each other and talk about the game, heard of Steam and Origin anyone?
You often see players pointing out that in their favourite MMO there is no raid gear being sold or the like. Yet many MMO’s are now offering extra passes to dungeons where you get the raid or best PvP gear.
I don’t think they are hiding P2W, they used to but those years have gone. What is an XP boost that allows you to get to top level more quickly and be more effective in PVP? That is P2W but already the ground rules have changed so much many or even most gamers do not regard xp boosts as P2W.
XP boost is a shortcut - not an advantage in PvP.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.
MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.
Don't be stupid. Since the advent of RMT (Gold farmers) you can consider ANY game out there P2W no matter the subscription model or cash shop presence and content.
You entire premise is invalid. MMO companies have nothing to do with it. It's the players and always have been.
Except for the fact that the two have no correlation at all.
One is my opinion that gamers are growing increasing dissatisfied with the trend of Freemium models.
The second list is a group of statements about how F2P models have been detrimintal to the MMO gaming community and the games the model support in general.
1) "The primary reason there is a more and more vocal opposition to this model is ... " <--You presented it as a statement of fact. Even as an opinion, it's not up to me to disprove it, it's up to you to provide some kind of data to support it, especially when it directly contradicts all other data we have seen for the past few years.
2) The conversation isn't about what you perceive is a better business model for fostering community. Unfortunately, Venge fell for your deflection and you successfully led him off on that tangent, but I'd much rather stick to the conversation at hand which you can revisit here if you'd like to get back on track.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The biggest culprits are the Freemium games, rather than the true F2P or B2P games.
In Freemium games like the SoE stable, LOTRO and SWTOR there is no way to be competitive as a free member, its simply not possible. Most of the new wave of F2P and B2P games are quite the opposite however, since they have realised that you make more money that way. Even SoE seems to be learning with PS2.
Everything except that which requires skill or skill to defeat should be able to be bought.
You see, the every increasing population of MMO players are at work 55-60hrs per week paying tax to fund unemployed/student's/children's TIME to grind out things to advance their character. It's only fair the working people should be able to defeat the time sync. Not the skill requirment though.
I just wish they would put MMO's up to $50 per month subs and get rid of all the unemployed/students/children - would be a much smaller and better community with much more entertainment based MMO content available.
Instead, because we have people with infintie time to waste, we get endless grind.
MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.
MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.
i wouldnt pay 1c to keep playing a video game but i would pay 50$ to keep the toxic/trash F2P community away.
When you see Holtmail, Yahoo, Google and other email providers bringing back a monthly fee, and abandoning free.... you can expect other similar industries to look at doing the same. Until that happens, you should expect them all to continue to promote free, as it provides the best return for their investment.
I don’t think they are hiding P2W, they used to but those years have gone. What is an XP boost that allows you to get to top level more quickly and be more effective in PVP? That is P2W but already the ground rules have changed so much many or even most gamers do not regard xp boosts as P2W.
XP boost is a shortcut - not an advantage in PvP.
if you have a shortcut into taking part in PVP more effectively because you are a higher level then that is a PvP advantage.
MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.
MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.
Don't be stupid. Since the advent of RMT (Gold farmers) you can consider ANY game out there P2W no matter the subscription model or cash shop presence and content.
You entire premise is invalid. MMO companies have nothing to do with it. It's the players and always have been.
Correct. In the absence of sufficient demand, the RMT and other such would not exist.
You're making up anecdotal evidence and applying it broadly to every scenario. In GW2, TSW, STO, and now Tera, if I spend $100 on the game I'm not twice as powerful as someone who purchased $50 in cash store items.
The P2P scenario isn't ridiculous at all. I didn't buy Rift's Storm Legion and I'm at a disadvantage compared to other players even though I still have active sub time. It doesn't matter that it's p2p or f2p. They are selling advantage and restricting those who don't pay more than their subscription.
It's not ridiculous because p2p zealots are applying the standard to p2p one way and to f2p another. You could make the same statement about f2p: why would a player choose never to purchase content and continue play a f2p game? Just because a p2p game can lock you out of their servers when your subscription ends doesn't mean that them selling an xpac is any less p2w than a f2p game selling stuff.
You could even go so far as to apply the 50/100 rule you stated above to p2p. If I can only afford $50 worth of sub time a year but someone else can afford $100 worth of sub time then they have purchased an advantage over me. How is that different from f2p other than in f2p I can actually still improve my character where the sub game I'm locked out.
It doesn't matter what cash shop game is chosen. Games that don't sell items that directly improve character strength always offer other items that players can be purchased and sold for in-game currency. Either way a player spending the most cash will always have an advantage that is proportional to the amount they spent.
Your argument is interesting, but I am still hesitant to consider it a paid advantage. It would be different if the initial purchase of the expansion gave players the increased levels, new gear, etc., but it only allows them to earn that advantage by playing the game.
The P2W advantage you get is hard to qualify and you certainly are not twice as good in PvP for playing twice as much. But you get an advantage, and often a substantial one.
This is about having a level playing field, which when you want to make as much cash as possible is a real problem. So first you offer some XP boosts, then its PVE buffs, teleporting in PVE and so on. Get the punters used to all that. After which you sell passes for raids so players can get PVE gear quicker. Then its PvP gear. Or you let players buy wepaons, which they can also obtain through building up PvP points.
P2W is here and now and it is only going to get worse, the cash cow (that's us guy's) is mooing a bit but still paying up like a dream.
P2W is here and now and it is only going to get worse, the cash cow (that's us guy's) is mooing a bit but still paying up like a dream.
Not "us". Only a small percentage of the player population .. hence whales, not cash cows. It is pretty well known fact that only a small percentage pay through the roof. We are most likely the free loaders riding their coat tails.
It is now socially acceptable among gamers to spend money above and beyond the sub and/or box price in order to get an advantage over other players, be it through currency, time, gear, or all of the above.
It's over. The genre is completely corrupted. People pour hundreds into these games, sometimes hundreds every month. Not only do I not want to compete with these players, frankly I don't even want to share the same gameworlds with them. Their definition of what 'playing a game' means is too radically different from mine.
Yet another reason I'm done spending money on MMOs.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
It is now socially acceptable among gamers to spend money above and beyond the sub and/or box price in order to get an advantage over other players, be it through currency, time, gear, or all of the above.
It's over. The genre is completely corrupted. People pour hundreds into these games, sometimes hundreds every month. Not only do I not want to compete with these players, frankly I don't even want to share the same gameworlds with them. Their definition of what 'playing a game' means is too radically different from mine.
Yet another reason I'm done spending money on MMOs.
Just play an instanced game. You can be in control and never be in the same copy of the "gameworld" with anyone you don't like.
Comments
How are they less P2W? The big one is that a player chooses to purchase the expansion they start at the same spot as the previous guy that purchased the expansion. In a cash shop based game the player that spent $50 is 1/2 as powerful as the person that spent $100.
The real question is why would a player choose to never purchase the expansion and continue to play a P2P game? I think the whole idea of using a ridiculous scenerio in the first place is where the discussion went wrong.
I don’t think they are hiding P2W, they used to but those years have gone. What is an XP boost that allows you to get to top level more quickly and be more effective in PVP? That is P2W but already the ground rules have changed so much many or even most gamers do not regard xp boosts as P2W.
Cash shops were the first step, once you have one of those it opens up a P2W bonanza. If a game is not a MMO making nearly every game possible have an online PvP section to its gameplay is needed and that’s what has happened. Finally you need to have players in a social network where they will want to compete with each other and talk about the game, heard of Steam and Origin anyone?
You often see players pointing out that in their favourite MMO there is no raid gear being sold or the like. Yet many MMO’s are now offering extra passes to dungeons where you get the raid or best PvP gear.
P2W is with us here and now.
XP boost is a shortcut - not an advantage in PvP.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Don't be stupid. Since the advent of RMT (Gold farmers) you can consider ANY game out there P2W no matter the subscription model or cash shop presence and content.
You entire premise is invalid. MMO companies have nothing to do with it. It's the players and always have been.
1) "The primary reason there is a more and more vocal opposition to this model is ... " <--You presented it as a statement of fact. Even as an opinion, it's not up to me to disprove it, it's up to you to provide some kind of data to support it, especially when it directly contradicts all other data we have seen for the past few years.
2) The conversation isn't about what you perceive is a better business model for fostering community. Unfortunately, Venge fell for your deflection and you successfully led him off on that tangent, but I'd much rather stick to the conversation at hand which you can revisit here if you'd like to get back on track.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The biggest culprits are the Freemium games, rather than the true F2P or B2P games.
In Freemium games like the SoE stable, LOTRO and SWTOR there is no way to be competitive as a free member, its simply not possible. Most of the new wave of F2P and B2P games are quite the opposite however, since they have realised that you make more money that way. Even SoE seems to be learning with PS2.
Everything except that which requires skill or skill to defeat should be able to be bought.
You see, the every increasing population of MMO players are at work 55-60hrs per week paying tax to fund unemployed/student's/children's TIME to grind out things to advance their character. It's only fair the working people should be able to defeat the time sync. Not the skill requirment though.
I just wish they would put MMO's up to $50 per month subs and get rid of all the unemployed/students/children - would be a much smaller and better community with much more entertainment based MMO content available.
Instead, because we have people with infintie time to waste, we get endless grind.
i wouldnt pay 1c to keep playing a video game but i would pay 50$ to keep the toxic/trash F2P community away.
answer to thread : as long as tehy think it will make them money.
and guess what it is cause most people who complain about it still go and do it
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
if you have a shortcut into taking part in PVP more effectively because you are a higher level then that is a PvP advantage.
Correct. In the absence of sufficient demand, the RMT and other such would not exist.
And given how prevalent RMT is, it is very clear that there is a strong demand.
This discussion is moot. RMT & cash shops are not going away because they work.
Sadly, this is the truth. The days of quality are over, it's all about quantity now baby.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It doesn't matter what cash shop game is chosen. Games that don't sell items that directly improve character strength always offer other items that players can be purchased and sold for in-game currency. Either way a player spending the most cash will always have an advantage that is proportional to the amount they spent.
Your argument is interesting, but I am still hesitant to consider it a paid advantage. It would be different if the initial purchase of the expansion gave players the increased levels, new gear, etc., but it only allows them to earn that advantage by playing the game.
The P2W advantage you get is hard to qualify and you certainly are not twice as good in PvP for playing twice as much. But you get an advantage, and often a substantial one.
This is about having a level playing field, which when you want to make as much cash as possible is a real problem. So first you offer some XP boosts, then its PVE buffs, teleporting in PVE and so on. Get the punters used to all that. After which you sell passes for raids so players can get PVE gear quicker. Then its PvP gear. Or you let players buy wepaons, which they can also obtain through building up PvP points.
P2W is here and now and it is only going to get worse, the cash cow (that's us guy's) is mooing a bit but still paying up like a dream.
Not "us". Only a small percentage of the player population .. hence whales, not cash cows. It is pretty well known fact that only a small percentage pay through the roof. We are most likely the free loaders riding their coat tails.
It is now socially acceptable among gamers to spend money above and beyond the sub and/or box price in order to get an advantage over other players, be it through currency, time, gear, or all of the above.
It's over. The genre is completely corrupted. People pour hundreds into these games, sometimes hundreds every month. Not only do I not want to compete with these players, frankly I don't even want to share the same gameworlds with them. Their definition of what 'playing a game' means is too radically different from mine.
Yet another reason I'm done spending money on MMOs.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Just play an instanced game. You can be in control and never be in the same copy of the "gameworld" with anyone you don't like.