Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Lets figure this out: How can we improve the community?

15681011

Comments

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    It's anonymity. If there's anything I think will improve people's online behavior is when a Real ID is finally enacted. Not just by one company, but a legal online official identity (like youre online drivers license). Then when someone decides to be a jerk for no reason or say something completely out of line, then they have to face consequences such as job loss, public humiliation and so on.

    As long as people are anonymous, they'll behave terribly.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheHavok

    It affects all Online communities and it is tied to people being anonymous online and thus not caring about their action.

    I think Blizzard made the best attempt out of all Online Gaming companies to try and combat 'toxic' behavior by having the first iteration of Real ID be mandatory and showcase people's real names on the forums.  Of course there was a huge backlash because people want to remain anonymous on the internet..

    Personally, I think removing the anonymous factor will help a lot in making people act more civil, but is that ever going to happen?  Probably not.

    I'd like to mention one more thing: The worst or most 'toxi' behavior I see I hacking. Hacking in many online video games is a rampant problem around the world...except in South Korea.  The reason being: Korean players are required to provide their social security number when making a game account.  Hacking in korea is illegal and you will be fined if caught.

    Koreans take their gaming seriously!

    They are also collectivists, and their government is quite authoritarian.  Neither of which recommend their system for wider application.   Some of the worst Goonies I'm familiar with are Korean and Russian, so it doesn't have much of an impact in that regard.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei
     

    Honestly, there's no simple way to solve this problem. Banning people may work well enough in certain cases, but it's a VERY fine line to tread across. It's far too easy to start banning people unjustly under such a banner.

    That said, I think the gaming community gets blamed for a lot of things it has no right to be judged by. Given the latest talks about 'violent media', a lot of it is frankly political BS. Anyone w/ half a brain knows there is no significant correlation (as a whole) between violent entertainment & violent actions. If that was to be even remotely true, then the US as a whole would be predominately homocidal maniacs.

    However, when it comes to racism, trolling, flaming, etc. It's very easy for that to get out of hand over the internet. There's no real way to get rid of it. There's so much anonymity over the internet that some people get off on abusing that to create trouble. The only real solution is for the community to start policing itself. Push community leaders to start taking more of the right kinds of action against these things. Or, if you feel they aren't doing a good enough job, become a community leader yourself. If you want something done right...

    Your point of view isn't unreasonable. Thinking about what you said, I have some things to say. Not sure if I'm disagreeing with you or just exploring reality.

    Banning people. You are right, it would be easy. But then, how many paying customers are you willing to ban? If you banned every single paying customer that had political or social views different than yours, how many people will be left? Will it be enough to make money? Is it worth the cost to your company? Not just money, buy also a bad reputation for being heavily moderated.

    I agree with your view on violent games and their supposed correlation with RL violent crimes. To blame an inanimate object for criminal actions that have been taking place since the start of time is nonsense and tells me nobody is serious about addressing the issues.

    Commiting resources to hunt down trolls and people who use naughty words doesn't really interest me. I would rather have those resources and community leader hunting down "youth" mobs, murderers, gangbangers, rapist, and assailants. They pose more danger to you and I than any troll and hater. Trolls and haters are not the ones commiting these violent crimes. So why are we making them a priority?

    Moreover, when my wife goes for a run or shopping alone, I don't worry about some internet troll jumping out of the bushes and yelling "make me a sammich". I'm more worried about the murder, rape, and assault that is going on everyday in this country.

     

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    This is why people want to remain anonymous on the internet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1_8wefR7c

    Good thing I'm in a Stand Your Ground State. :)

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    It's anonymity. If there's anything I think will improve people's online behavior is when a Real ID is finally enacted. Not just by one company, but a legal online official identity (like youre online drivers license). Then when someone decides to be a jerk for no reason or say something completely out of line, then they have to face consequences such as job loss, public humiliation and so on.

    As long as people are anonymous, they'll behave terribly.

    Works both ways. Careful what you wish for.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Rusque
    It's anonymity. If there's anything I think will improve people's online behavior is when a Real ID is finally enacted. Not just by one company, but a legal online official identity (like youre online drivers license). Then when someone decides to be a jerk for no reason or say something completely out of line, then they have to face consequences such as job loss, public humiliation and so on.As long as people are anonymous, they'll behave terribly.
    I just heard almost every politician's ears perk up with that suggestion...
    "YES! A new license fee!"

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Or certification.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,019Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    So, there has been a large amount of talk about the gaming community being toxic. It is fine and well to dwell in the negative, but how can we fix it? We are all smart people here, so lets put our brains together and maybe we can accomplish something. What do you think we can do?

    Example 1:

    I know as a female gamer I have seen several "support" groups/communities for female gamers open up over the years. They emphasize girl gamers being normal players and deserve the same respect of any male gamer. Do you think a anti-being-an-a-hat community would work to fix our problem? 

    Example 2:

    League of legends has started banning pro gamers that are toxic to show that they will not take it and that it is not ok on any level of skill. They have also implemented the honor system to try and make people think about the positive and not only the negative (reporting). I personally think it has worked wonders on the community and given it a fighting chance at maybe recovering from its a-hat infection.

    ...

    How do you think we can fix the gaming community?

    I dont think that will work. Thge only way to make a better community is to reward people for working together instead of rewarding them for ninjalooting and to put more focus on the group than the individual.

    And to get rid of the need and greed mechanics and instead just give the players the reward also helps a lot.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    You start simply by rewarding positive behaviour and not rewarding negative behaviour. A really basic example is resource nodes in a game. Games that enforce and implicitly reward negative behaviour alloys you to selfishly tag a node, games that allow sharing promote positive behaviour, do just that. Same in a community, you can't just punish, you have to positively reinforce as well. We do it with our kids, why would we not do the same with our peers.

    You really should've seen when they tried that in League of Legends. I think the only way to prevent the community to devolve into a cesspool is to make the game as "socially light" as possible. Don't force people to endure one another any more than they want to.

    That is why a "solo" option is so popular in MMOs. Not everyone wants to suffer others at all times.

    And i found people are too annal about "bad behavior". So what if some gamers are using bad words, or call you names. Just click "ignore". It is just words. If you are offended by some unknown dude on the internet, you need a thicker skin.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution. What can we as a community come up with to fix this problem. I am think some kind of a anti-a**-hat community or maybe a gamer approved community or something where if you are a a** hat you get reported and taken off the list or something. I do not know guys that is why I though together we could come up with something great!

    The problem is, there isn't a solution.  In any competitive community, you are going to have tons of Type A personality types who are basically bags of free-floating hostility.  Those are the kinds of people drawn to MMOs, the people who desperately want to compete and be #1.  The only way to change it is to stop MMOs from being competitive, in other words, to stop having MMOs at all, or at the very least, have developers make games that don't appeal to 80% of their audience.

    Not going to happen.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    This is why people want to remain anonymous on the internet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1_8wefR7c

    Good thing I'm in a Stand Your Ground State. :)

    And damn good thing George III didn't have access to Facebook records.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • FARGIN_WARFARGIN_WAR New York, NYPosts: 166Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    This is why people want to remain anonymous on the internet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1_8wefR7c

    Good thing I'm in a Stand Your Ground State. :)

    And damn good thing George III didn't have access to Facebook records.

    I agree. I'm thinking the "Boston Twitter Party" wouldn't have the same impact.

    image

    If you don’t do stupid things while you’re young, you’ll have nothing to smile about when you’re old.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution. What can we as a community come up with to fix this problem. I am think some kind of a anti-a**-hat community or maybe a gamer approved community or something where if you are a a** hat you get reported and taken off the list or something. I do not know guys that is why I though together we could come up with something great!

    The problem is, there isn't a solution.  In any competitive community, you are going to have tons of Type A personality types who are basically bags of free-floating hostility.  Those are the kinds of people drawn to MMOs, the people who desperately want to compete and be #1.  The only way to change it is to stop MMOs from being competitive, in other words, to stop having MMOs at all, or at the very least, have developers make games that don't appeal to 80% of their audience.

    Not going to happen.

    Naw, one thing A type personalities understand is brute force, send active, agressive moderators after them and ban mercilessly and at the very least you can drive them out of the game.

    Question is, do developers really not want to take their money?  These days the answer seems to be no.   In years gone by more did, but not so true today.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution. What can we as a community come up with to fix this problem. I am think some kind of a anti-a**-hat community or maybe a gamer approved community or something where if you are a a** hat you get reported and taken off the list or something. I do not know guys that is why I though together we could come up with something great!

    The problem is, there isn't a solution.  In any competitive community, you are going to have tons of Type A personality types who are basically bags of free-floating hostility.  Those are the kinds of people drawn to MMOs, the people who desperately want to compete and be #1.  The only way to change it is to stop MMOs from being competitive, in other words, to stop having MMOs at all, or at the very least, have developers make games that don't appeal to 80% of their audience.

    Not going to happen.

    Naw, one thing A type personalities understand is brute force, send active, agressive moderators after them and ban mercilessly and at the very least you can drive them out of the game.

    Question is, do developers really not want to take their money?  These days the answer seems to be no.   In years gone by more did, but not so true today.

     

    That all depends on how the perception management goes.  If they become convinced that they might lose enough money, they might "discover" some new found commitment to actively dealing with the problem.  The trick would be in how that perception comes about.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    O.P. great question. Two important elements would improve the community of a game:

    1. No FTP
    2. Content where soloing is the exception, not the rule.

    I like the scoring idea. Here's an idea. When player joins a group; time stamp it and take note of the group members. When player leaves group, permanently record the duration and group members. Then metrics can be provided. For example, if a player has a lot of long duration groups with a variety of players then you can probably assume he/she is not too much of an IDB.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone
     

    That all depends on how the perception management goes.  If they become convinced that they might lose enough money, they might "discover" some new found commitment to actively dealing with the problem.  The trick would be in how that perception comes about.

    Why would they even think that? Look at the most popular games? WOW, LOL, WOT .. none is famous for its good 'community'.

    In fact, i doubt most people even care. They may rant a bit .. but if the game is good, and you can find fun people to play with, it is not too much to put some less likable souls on ignore.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    And when you can't regularly find good people to play with (beyond your closed circle of in game friends) your stuck in a horrible community - fail for a multi player game.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    And when you can't regularly find good people to play with (beyond your closed circle of in game friends) your stuck in a horrible community - fail for a multi player game.

    "closed"

    "horrible"

    These are assumptions on your part. The first is false for most, as the average person belongs to multiple social circles. The second is subjective and seems it exists solely to try to support the first.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ariasaitchoariasaitcho Rapid City, SDPosts: 112Member

    Hmm, how do you fix that which is by it's very nature unfixable?

    Yes games that require group play, rather than solo play generally have fewer childish behavior problems. Yet there are still people in those games behaving poorly. Cliques form naturally and will continue to do so regardless of what artificial boundaries are placed within a game. So people will play with the same group for a long period of time and form a clique. They will be less likely to join a group that does not have at least some of the people from their clique in it. This is only natural human behavior.

    Will removing the anonomity of the internet solve the issue of poor behavior? NO! If you want proof of this, everyone has had a job where someone there was always telling inappropriate jokes, wearing inappropriate clothing, failing to wash properly, etc. Did everyone knowing who that person was solve the issue? No, all it did was (unless it was the boss) get the person fired. And that person went on to their next job and repeated their poor behavior. Sometimes, eventually that person learns to modify their bahavior; sometimes not. This is why banning only rarely solves behavior issues in games.

    The core of this issue is: we want an environment in which we are comfortable and can have fun. The problem is: as we are all unique individuals we each have different comfort zones and ideas of what is fun.

    The saying is as old as the internt: "Don't feed the trolls". And it remains true. Ignore them and they go away; give them the attention they crave and they only create more drama. As far as games go: open world pvp games encourage trollish behavior. Some games are better than others at policeing this than others, but in the end the trolls still are there. Therefore I avoid any game that is open world pvp. I have never had good experiences in an open world pvp game, f2p or p2p.

    Finally, there are just as many people with behavior issues in paid games and "free" games. How many trolls and a** hats there are is entrirely dependant on the level of policeing done by the publisher, and the swiftness and severity of punishments handed out. A slap on the wrist does nothing towards correcting poor behavior, IRL or in games.

     

    Humanity hasn't grownup yet, the Age of Aquarious is not upon us. Thus the only way to really resolve this is by ignoring the people you don't like and reporting severe behavior issues. Sorry, it can't really be fixed until we all growup.

    image
  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    O.P. great question. Two important elements would improve the community of a game:

    1. No FTP
    2. Content where soloing is the exception, not the rule.

    I like the scoring idea. Here's an idea. When player joins a group; time stamp it and take note of the group members. When player leaves group, permanently record the duration and group members. Then metrics can be provided. For example, if a player has a lot of long duration groups with a variety of players then you can probably assume he/she is not too much of an IDB.

    Agreed and maybe this makes me evil but I can see another exploit to this. Sit in a group with your firends and afk and now you are a great member! 

    FTP is an issue in a way. I love FTP but I agree with no lose of money people dont care if they troll. No one talks about how they lost their totally free RoM account on here and I doubt anyone will.

    image

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member
    Originally posted by ariasaitcho

    Hmm, how do you fix that which is by it's very nature unfixable?

    Yes games that require group play, rather than solo play generally have fewer childish behavior problems. Yet there are still people in those games behaving poorly. Cliques form naturally and will continue to do so regardless of what artificial boundaries are placed within a game. So people will play with the same group for a long period of time and form a clique. They will be less likely to join a group that does not have at least some of the people from their clique in it. This is only natural human behavior.

    Will removing the anonomity of the internet solve the issue of poor behavior? NO! If you want proof of this, everyone has had a job where someone there was always telling inappropriate jokes, wearing inappropriate clothing, failing to wash properly, etc. Did everyone knowing who that person was solve the issue? No, all it did was (unless it was the boss) get the person fired. And that person went on to their next job and repeated their poor behavior. Sometimes, eventually that person learns to modify their bahavior; sometimes not. This is why banning only rarely solves behavior issues in games.

    The core of this issue is: we want an environment in which we are comfortable and can have fun. The problem is: as we are all unique individuals we each have different comfort zones and ideas of what is fun.

    The saying is as old as the internt: "Don't feed the trolls". And it remains true. Ignore them and they go away; give them the attention they crave and they only create more drama. As far as games go: open world pvp games encourage trollish behavior. Some games are better than others at policeing this than others, but in the end the trolls still are there. Therefore I avoid any game that is open world pvp. I have never had good experiences in an open world pvp game, f2p or p2p.

    Finally, there are just as many people with behavior issues in paid games and "free" games. How many trolls and a** hats there are is entrirely dependant on the level of policeing done by the publisher, and the swiftness and severity of punishments handed out. A slap on the wrist does nothing towards correcting poor behavior, IRL or in games.

     

    Humanity hasn't grownup yet, the Age of Aquarious is not upon us. Thus the only way to really resolve this is by ignoring the people you don't like and reporting severe behavior issues. Sorry, it can't really be fixed until we all growup.

    I really think this was a well thought out post. I know it is cliche and has been saide a million times but, 'do not feed the tolls' is the best phrase to solve everything. Being a girl gamer, that has some parts of her that are a bit...bigger... than others makes me a huge target. What you have to realive is when you give them credit for pissing you off they get all hapy and then when you stop feeding them they private message you unitl they stop and then they just die off. It is not a point of F2P or P2P it is just the community at a whole needs to lok in on itself and assess it's values!

    image

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Those who want change conveniently forget the avenues they already have open to them. You can use a filter channel and ignore command. You can report harassment.

    And all that I agree with, harassment and so on is just not acceptable and should be punished.

    But this is not enough, not only must people be punished for what you do not like, they must think like you. This sort of social engineering, where you want to get the Thought Police onto anyone who does not agree with you is the standard method political correctness uses to twist society into the image it wants it to be regardless of reality.

    You are not advocating the Thought Police you say? What do you think an honour system is? Social pressure like that is an insidious way of getting people to think what you want them to think. Pat them on the back when they have been good boys and girls like Pavlov’s dogs.

    “We get blamed for alot of violence and problems. Maybe it is true since our community is so mean, racist, sexist, and generally evil (except for a few)”

    Gamers get blamed by the media for a lot of things, does that mean it is true? If that is really your opinion of our community might I suggest you stay away from it? We are not that bad, just don’t expect us all to think exactly like you do and you will find us very welcoming.

    I don’t want LadyEuphei to reveal her age on these forums, but I would suggest you are very young and have like we all did an extremely idealistic view on life. 21 to 25? Yes you are very young, even though you might think you have seen it all by your early twenties. :D

  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon

     

    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    How do you think we can fix the gaming community?

    Invent a time-machine and go back to the 90's, that's the only way.

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    FTP is an issue in a way. I love FTP but I agree with no lose of money people dont care if they troll. No one talks about how they lost their totally free RoM account on here and I doubt anyone will.

    If there was a monthly charge to access the MMORPG.com site - articles, forums, videos, etc. - do you feel the community on these boards would be better, smaller, or both?

    Also, would you - a positive, contributing member of the community by any measure - be here if there was a monthly fee to do so?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

Sign In or Register to comment.