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How can a new themepark mmo avoid the themepark trap?

How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

 

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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Comments

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Are you serious? Tell me you're not serious!

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Are you serious? Tell me you're not serious!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/373227/page/1

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    Make it so that you don't progress faster or further at high levels than at low levels.  The reason players rush to the endgame so fast is that games constantly bash them over the head with "you're a failure because you're leveling too slowly" if they don't.  Games that push players to skip most of the content have nothing to blame but themselves if players do, indeed, skip most of the content.
  • BarrikorBarrikor Phoenix, AZPosts: 316Member

    If a game is fun then it'll have players - whether it's an FPS, RTS, TBS, or MMO.


    Personally I'm more for sandboxes than themeparks, but the bulk of the post-WOW themeparks can't even hold themepark players.


    There's no real "themepark trap", but rather the game studios are putting out sub-par games. Themepark players finish the content of the poorly-made sub-par clone game, then hop back to a game that's more fun for them.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

     

     

     

     

    Why avoid it? Just play your business around the fact that players are going to rush through content. Hooked them on lower intensity progression till the next expansion.

     

  • SpectralHunterSpectralHunter So CalPosts: 386Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

     

     

     

     

    Why avoid it? Just play your business around the fact that players are going to rush through content. Hooked them on lower intensity progression till the next expansion.

     

    Easier said than done.  Most themepark MMOs seem to have a retention problem.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,917Member Uncommon

    Eliminate level progression entirely.

     

    Instant level-cap characters directly into endgame with gear progression via PVE and PVP.

     

    The only way to avoid a game becoming top-heavy is to design the game to be top-heavy from the start.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Every game have a retention problem.  You act like all those sandbox games dont' have retention problem.

    I think you just need to make a better game than the rest of your competitor.  Which is easier said than done.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Why avoid it? Just play your business around the fact that players are going to rush through content. Hooked them on lower intensity progression till the next expansion.

     

    Easier said than done.  Most themepark MMOs seem to have a retention problem.

    That is the point. Don't see it as a problem. Just accept a short duration of play from players, and plan accordingly.

  • SpectralHunterSpectralHunter So CalPosts: 386Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko

    Every game have a retention problem.  You act like all those sandbox games dont' have retention problem.

    I think you just need to make a better game than the rest of your competitor.  Which is easier said than done.

    Agreed.  Even as I typed my reply I thought the same thing.

    But I do think sandboxes have more potential to encourage loyalty to the game.  I think players become more attached to their characters in sandboxes and as a result have a harder time moving on.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

     

     

     

     

    Thats easy. You implement systems that give players side content to get lost in.  Look at Skyrim.  It has a quest line (very short) and the rest of the game is fleshed out in (really good) side quests.

    Understanding thats a console mechanic, for an MMO allow players to have housing.  To me this plants the user in the virtual world.  Its persistent.  Next allow them to hunt, fish, craft, build - like flying machines and boats.

    Next you dont add (linear) quests but what I would consider 'adventure' quests.  Have me go out in the world and locate/hunt something for an achievement/reward/loot/etc.  They can small mundane things or all the way up to raid-level like encounters.  The key is the player determines when and how they run it.

    Who says you cant explore a cave and find a raid monster in there?  Yeah, so what you get killed.  But now you have discovered something new to conquer and must convince others to go with you to take him down.  I'm just talking thoughts right now but you get the idea.

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  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    the solution is probably to mix a sandbox and a theampark game. Give players a theampark to play but have sandbox activities at all levels for them to get side tracked in.

    No dev will ever be able to keep up with players ability to consume content but most theampark players don't want a sandbox only game ( and vice versa ) A mix of both that you could do both in would seem to give the best of both worlds.

    The problem of course would be doing it right. If the theampark is just tacked on or the sandbox is just wow style crafting ( I.E usless ) then they just have another halfassed game.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Are you serious? Tell me you're not serious!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/373227/page/1

    -_- That whole thing was a joke. Take the only, the only succesful surviving sandbox MMO and establish a trend from that? Really?

    I mean, If I pick Darkfall, Xsyon, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth and a few others to just establish a trend there along the lines of "sandboxes jsut don't work" and then show the "ideal themepark", say WoW as contrast, would you be happy with that? Would it make you think "gee, sandboxes sure suck" unless you were already leaning towards that direction?

    A joke. You can't be serious.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Do themepark mmos need retention?If they can generate profits over a limited shelf life and then roll out the next product, then surely that is what they should do.

     

    Personally I see themeparks becoming more like the single player games in terms of equity generation, short life span with sequels and add on packs.

     

    Instant action, quality, polish and churn. Retention is the remit of a "world/sandbox" game, why should themepark games worry about it?

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    I have nothing against themepark games, it's their world design that sucks because it is linear. 

     

    If you mixed the content up throughout the world instead of having a linear path through it then they would be fine. Sadly right now they're all so top heavy and the world is dead...

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Do themepark mmos need retention?If they can generate profits over a limited shelf life and then roll out the next product, then surely that is what they should do.

     

    Personally I see themeparks becoming more like the single player games in terms of equity generation, short life span with sequels and add on packs.

     

    Instant action, quality, polish and churn. Retention is the remit of a "world/sandbox" game, why should themepark games worry about it?

    Interesting suggestion.  Do you see this infringing on console games?

    btw, I left consoles to play MMOs because I got bored... and agree with your point that MMOs are becoming like single player games.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Do themepark mmos need retention?If they can generate profits over a limited shelf life and then roll out the next product, then surely that is what they should do.

     

    Personally I see themeparks becoming more like the single player games in terms of equity generation, short life span with sequels and add on packs.

     

    Instant action, quality, polish and churn. Retention is the remit of a "world/sandbox" game, why should themepark games worry about it?

    Interesting suggestion.  Do you see this infringing on console games?

    btw, I left consoles to play MMOs because I got bored... and agree with your point that MMOs are becoming like single player games.

    "Infringing"? There is no "copyright" here.

    And not just conosle games. iOS games. PC single player games .. all have little retention issues. And why do you think MMOs are better than console games?

    It is just a matter of taste. There are plenty of good console games like Dishonor that probably are more fun (at least to me) than most MMOs.

     

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

    The answer is to not create games using a skinner-box model.

    The sad truth, is that most gamers are so used to skinner-box models, that they refuse to accept anything else as fun anymore. Any game with clear, progression-based content, is going to get devoured at increasingly efficient rates. Furthermore, thanks to the internet, the number of people who can go through content at these lightning fast speeds goes up with each game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

    The answer is to not create games using a skinner-box model.

    The sad truth, is that most gamers are so used to skinner-box models, that they refuse to accept anything else as fun anymore. Any game with clear, progression-based content, is going to get devoured at increasingly efficient rates. Furthermore, thanks to the internet, the number of people who can go through content at these lightning fast speeds goes up with each game.

    Why is it "sad" if that is what is fun to them? We are talking about entertainment here. So the whole industry is showing that a skinner box is fun ... great ... it is what works.

    And why look at devouring content as a problem? Someone is enjoying your content, and you are making money from it .... a win-win.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,994Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Do themepark mmos need retention?If they can generate profits over a limited shelf life and then roll out the next product, then surely that is what they should do.

     

    Personally I see themeparks becoming more like the single player games in terms of equity generation, short life span with sequels and add on packs.

     

    Instant action, quality, polish and churn. Retention is the remit of a "world/sandbox" game, why should themepark games worry about it?

    Interesting suggestion.  Do you see this infringing on console games?

    btw, I left consoles to play MMOs because I got bored... and agree with your point that MMOs are becoming like single player games.

    More and more I'm starting to agree with this thought, MMORPG's are following more of the model of the single player title, including their revenue generation model.  It seems that they can make money even without a large, long term sub base, so sub retention really isn't an expectation by the Devs anymore.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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  • SpectralHunterSpectralHunter So CalPosts: 386Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    More and more I'm starting to agree with this thought, MMORPG's are following more of the model of the single player title, including their revenue generation model.  It seems that they can make money even without a large, long term sub base, so sub retention really isn't an expectation by the Devs anymore.

    Very possible but companies need to be wary that if they continue to produce MMOs as one shots, they will lose player loyalty and their next game may not be as appealing.  Look at how far Bioware has dropped.  And lots of folks are wary of Cryptic. 

    Right now players still consider MMOs to be long lasting games that evolve and grow so I still think devs need to develop games that is designed to retain players, otherwise their next game will pose more challenges to be successful.

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Eliminate level progression entirely.

    Instant level-cap characters directly into endgame with gear progression via PVE and PVP.

    The only way to avoid a game becoming top-heavy is to design the game to be top-heavy from the start.

    People want to feel as if they are progressing so all you're really doing is advocating hiding the overt progression number of, say, player level in trade for progressing in other ways.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

    The answer is to not create games using a skinner-box model.

    The sad truth, is that most gamers are so used to skinner-box models, that they refuse to accept anything else as fun anymore. Any game with clear, progression-based content, is going to get devoured at increasingly efficient rates. Furthermore, thanks to the internet, the number of people who can go through content at these lightning fast speeds goes up with each game.

    Hey aesperus, what makes your fun better than someone elses, hmm? Maybe you should apply that entry-level psychology on yourself too. Skinner box is maybe the crudest way to describe motivation in a game. Or anything really.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    How can a new themepark mmo avoid  the players rushing through your developer's provided AI content in a very little time and, when reaching the "endgame" and there is nothing else to do, they going back to WoW?

    One alternative that i tought would be make the ultimate goals (itens, gear, etc) be artificialy very hard and toilsome to get, but i think that wouldn't work since the players still have WoW as a better alternative and are used to easy earnings.

     

     

     

     

     Realistically the only way to do it is to either:

    1) Make it a world, rather than gear treadmill, so that the gear treadmill is just one part of the world. Crafting, housing etc to do while waiting for new content.

    2) Do what SoE do with EQ2 and make broken content in the raid / zone progression so that people have to wait until its fixed (strangely whenever new content is nearly ready to be released) to continue with progression.

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by tixylix

    If you mixed the content up throughout the world instead of having a linear path through it then they would be fine. Sadly right now they're all so top heavy and the world is dead...

    which one, except TOR ?

    played some non linear theme parks too

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