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POLL: The MMO Conundrum

2

Comments

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    Why such a binary decision?  Why cant it be a hybrid?  A new MMO (graphics, systems, etc) but old MMO gameplay (virtual world, housing, sandpark elements).

    Picking one or the other is just limiting options.

    If anything its pretty much proven strict themepark content is unsustainable so sandbox/sandpark is really the only way to go especially if you want/looking for longevity.

    Always been curious why this model didnt take off?  Or has it not started yet?

    image
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Why such a binary decision?  Why cant it be a hybrid?  A new MMO (graphics, systems, etc) but old MMO gameplay (virtual world, housing, sandpark elements).Picking one or the other is just limiting options.If anything its pretty much proven strict themepark content is unsustainable so sandbox/sandpark is really the only way to go especially if you want/looking for longevity.Always been curious why this model didnt take off?  Or has it not started yet?
    Well... I would hope a new game uses better graphics, systems, etc.) while still holding onto old school MMOs ideals. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

    I am talking about the core ideals behind these new systems: Old vs New.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    black and white choices are no choice at all.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by jtcgs
    black and white choices are no choice at all.
    I simplified it to keep the "out of the box" thinkers at bay. It almost worked ;)

    I was simply trying to illustrate a decision process some game designers may struggle with. When some posters bitch and moan about the decisions some game designers make, I thought it might prove prudent to see what "being in their shoes" might be like.

    Sometimes, it works. Sometimes it doesn't...

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    I chose new but I disagree with your longevity assessments as the newer MMOs haven't had a chance to prove their longevity. 

    They keep shutting down or going f2p before we can asses their longevity image

    I think you've let your bias toward F2P cloud your view. If I get what you're saying, it doesn't make a difference if AoC, LOTRO, EQ2, Lineage 2, or DDO are around after ten years because they have already failed your measuring stick by going free to play. Likewise that seems to indicate that if an MMO was released as F2P, then it doesn't count to begin with. Do I understand you correctly?

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    It is pure speculation to say that an old school MMO would still have longevity in today's market. These games do not exist in a vacuum.

    Well, seeing as the new-age MMOs seem to appeal to players who game jump often, longevity is usually not what new-age MMOs appear to want. They don't build their games for longevity, unless a player enjoys endless, meaningless gear grinds, raids that don't change from one run to the next, PvP for what ever reason the game decides to dictate, and daily quests.

     

    Old school MMOs, those bore-fests you hate so much, actually cultivated longevity. When TSW, GW2, Rift, Tera, AA, SW:TOR and the rest hit 10+ years of being around, I may change my tune. UO is still around - 15(?) years running. EQ is still kicking - 13(?) years running. I count 16 games listed on this site still up and running since before the new millennium. That is about 16 games running for over 12 years each.

    Like I said, maybe time will tell a different story, but for now, I like my assumption :)

    The grind was same in the old and new. Only in the new, the grind is at the end. And you haven't really given chance for the new games to prove their longevity.

    Again. Speculation. You have no basis for your argument.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • McGamerMcGamer Fairfield Bay, ARPosts: 1,012Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    You want to make an MMO. You start a company with other people's money since you did not win the lottery.

    Now you have 2 choices with varying risks.
    1) Make an old time MMO. (Not as popular, but may have longevity)
    2) Make a new-age MMO. (More popular, but may be short lived)

    Which path do you go down?

    (Let's not go down the buzzword paths of "innovative", "new", "revolutionary" and the like. Remember, you have investors to answer to.)

    Sorry but most investors are only going to care about are buzz words, not made-up gaming terms that no one uses.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by jtcgs
    black and white choices are no choice at all.

    I simplified it to keep the "out of the box" thinkers at bay. It almost worked ;)

     

    I was simply trying to illustrate a decision process some game designers may struggle with. When some posters bitch and moan about the decisions some game designers make, I thought it might prove prudent to see what "being in their shoes" might be like.

    Sometimes, it works. Sometimes it doesn't...

    Its not a binary choice. You are simply wrong if you think so. And any assessment you make of the issue based on that, will likely be also wrong.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    You want to make an MMO. You start a company with other people's money since you did not win the lottery.

    Now you have 2 choices with varying risks.
    1) Make an old time MMO. (Not as popular, but may have longevity)
    2) Make a new-age MMO. (More popular, but may be short lived)

    Which path do you go down?

    (Let's not go down the buzzword paths of "innovative", "new", "revolutionary" and the like. Remember, you have investors to answer to.)

    Whats my motivation, make a great game or make money?

    Making a great game would make money if it were indeed great. /facepalm

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Investors gave me money knowing I had no solid idea for a product and no business plan?  Can I also sell them a bridge I see from my window?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Paradigm68
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    I chose new but I disagree with your longevity assessments as the newer MMOs haven't had a chance to prove their longevity. 

    They keep shutting down or going f2p before we can asses their longevity image

    I think you've let your bias toward F2P cloud your view. If I get what you're saying, it doesn't make a difference if AoC, LOTRO, EQ2, Lineage 2, or DDO are around after ten years because they have already failed your measuring stick by going free to play. Likewise that seems to indicate that if an MMO was released as F2P, then it doesn't count to begin with. Do I understand you correctly?

    For an MMO that meets my definition, specfically as an immersive world simulator, yes, that precludes a cash-shop.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Why such a binary decision?  Why cant it be a hybrid?  A new MMO (graphics, systems, etc) but old MMO gameplay (virtual world, housing, sandpark elements).

     

    Picking one or the other is just limiting options.

    If anything its pretty much proven strict themepark content is unsustainable so sandbox/sandpark is really the only way to go especially if you want/looking for longevity.

    Always been curious why this model didnt take off?  Or has it not started yet?


    Well... I would hope a new game uses better graphics, systems, etc.) while still holding onto old school MMOs ideals. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

     

    I am talking about the core ideals behind these new systems: Old vs New.

    I see your point now.  I agree.  I still recommend the "old" way games were made which were more immersive (and therfore) more fun for me.

    How do you view ArcheAge (based on what you know)?  I think this is a step in this (right) direction.

    image
  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member

    If you are beholden to investors, which ALL mmo's are, then you would have to go with the modern model of MMO's.  Your MMO would have to cater to the broadest base of players possible without becoming too diluted.

    We have yet to see if Kickstarter MMO's can change this. 

    image

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    How do you view ArcheAge (based on what you know)?  I think this is a step in this (right) direction.
    Truthfully, I have not been following AA. It seems that the number one talking point about it is the action combat, which I am not a huge fan of. Thanks for asking and I will look further into it now that they have a Publisher for outside of Asia :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by dave6660
    Investors gave me money knowing I had no solid idea for a product and no business plan?  Can I also sell them a bridge I see from my window?
    lol I bet you can, you smooth talker!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member
    If i had to choose id be an "old style" mmo. If i did make an mmo id actually not want millions of players just a small tight nit community that still nets a profit.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Quirhid
    It is pure speculation to say that an old school MMO would still have longevity in today's market. These games do not exist in a vacuum.
    Well, seeing as the new-age MMOs seem to appeal to players who game jump often, longevity is usually not what new-age MMOs appear to want. They don't build their games for longevity, unless a player enjoys endless, meaningless gear grinds, raids that don't change from one run to the next, PvP for what ever reason the game decides to dictate, and daily quests.Old school MMOs, those bore-fests you hate so much, actually cultivated longevity. When TSW, GW2, Rift, Tera, AA, SW:TOR and the rest hit 10+ years of being around, I may change my tune. UO is still around - 15(?) years running. EQ is still kicking - 13(?) years running. I count 16 games listed on this site still up and running since before the new millennium. That is about 16 games running for over 12 years each.Like I said, maybe time will tell a different story, but for now, I like my assumption :)
    The grind was same in the old and new. Only in the new, the grind is at the end. And you haven't really given chance for the new games to prove their longevity.Again. Speculation. You have no basis for your argument.
    Just for pure speculation and anecdotal irrelevance here, of the games released in say, the past 5 years, how long have you played your choices? If you played some of the first MMOs, how long did you play them?

    Now, I know many different things factor into your decisions, like lack of choices early on and the many choices of today.

    Personally, Wizard101 was the only game in the past 5 years I have played for more than 2-3 months. Granted, I have not played every MMO released, but the few (out of the hundreds) I have tried have not lasted near as long I had hoped they would.

    Yes, it's speculation about the longevity issue. But there is a basis in (generally speaking) how MMOs were made and how they are made today. Do you dispute even that? Not saying better/worse, but different.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    MMO seems to be a high risk so-so reward venture. I am not sure i would want to make one.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    MMO seems to be a high risk so-so reward venture. I am not sure i would want to make one.
    It sure seems that there is no winning, doesn't it?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid


    Just for pure speculation and anecdotal irrelevance here, of the games released in say, the past 5 years, how long have you played your choices? If you played some of the first MMOs, how long did you play them?

     

    Now, I know many different things factor into your decisions, like lack of choices early on and the many choices of today.

    Personally, Wizard101 was the only game in the past 5 years I have played for more than 2-3 months. Granted, I have not played every MMO released, but the few (out of the hundreds) I have tried have not lasted near as long I had hoped they would.

    Yes, it's speculation about the longevity issue. But there is a basis in (generally speaking) how MMOs were made and how they are made today. Do you dispute even that? Not saying better/worse, but different.

    I actually started enjoying MMOs when they began to be genuinely good games. Before that I didn't much care about them. At the time I much rather played P&P and SP RPGs.

    Eve and GW1 are the only games I've played for more than 3 months! And I'm still wondering why I played Eve that long since its not very good! Maybe its the skill system I don't know...

    They are made exactly the same, only now we have a lot higher production values. The reason why you are not spending much time in them is because you've seen it all before. They have nothing new in them! If you released an old-school game  now it would be as bad as the rest!

    There is no novelty anymore. You don't want old - you want something completely new.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I actually started enjoying MMOs when they began to be genuinely good games. Before that I didn't much care about them. At the time I much rather played P&P and SP RPGs.Eve and GW1 are the only games I've played for more than 3 months! And I'm still wondering why I played Eve that long since its not very good! Maybe its the skill system I don't know...They are made exactly the same, only now we have a lot higher production values. The reason why you are not spending much time in them is because you've seen it all before. They have nothing new in them! If you released an old-school game  now it would be as bad as the rest!There is no novelty anymore. You don't want old - you want something completely new.
    Thanks for the candor. Maybe you are correct in what I am seeking. I don't know. There definitely are things technology-wise that can be done today that could not be done 10+ years ago. I guess I won't really know until I find an MMO I enjoy again :)

    It just seems from what I've read from your posts is that what *you* consider good games does not necessarily jive with what *I* consider good games. Nothing wrong with that! And that is the sticky wicket as they say :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid


    Just for pure speculation and anecdotal irrelevance here, of the games released in say, the past 5 years, how long have you played your choices? If you played some of the first MMOs, how long did you play them?

     

    Now, I know many different things factor into your decisions, like lack of choices early on and the many choices of today.

    Personally, Wizard101 was the only game in the past 5 years I have played for more than 2-3 months. Granted, I have not played every MMO released, but the few (out of the hundreds) I have tried have not lasted near as long I had hoped they would.

    Yes, it's speculation about the longevity issue. But there is a basis in (generally speaking) how MMOs were made and how they are made today. Do you dispute even that? Not saying better/worse, but different.

    I actually started enjoying MMOs when they began to be genuinely good games. Before that I didn't much care about them. At the time I much rather played P&P and SP RPGs.

    Eve and GW1 are the only games I've played for more than 3 months! And I'm still wondering why I played Eve that long since its not very good! Maybe its the skill system I don't know...

    They are made exactly the same, only now we have a lot higher production values. The reason why you are not spending much time in them is because you've seen it all before. They have nothing new in them! If you released an old-school game  now it would be as bad as the rest!

    There is no novelty anymore. You don't want old - you want something completely new.

    It's also been proven we dont actually want anything new or vastly different.  "We" actually want something very similar with a fresh coat of paint over it.

    Formulaic music, TV shows, Movies, Games, MMO's.  If we actually wanted something different, do you think we would routinely see the same media just painted differently.  They would cease to be profitable.

    We = consumers as a whole (consumer trends).

    image

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Maephisto
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     

    It's also been proven we dont actually want anything new or vastly different.  "We" actually want something very similar with a fresh coat of paint over it.

    Formulaic music, TV shows, Movies, Games, MMO's.  If we actually wanted something different, do you think we would routinely see the same media just painted differently.  They would cease to be profitable.

    We = consumers as a whole (consumer trends).

    I don't know what you mean since I skip those products which only change their "paint job" as you would say. For example,  Assassin's Creed was good the first time, better the second time because they made it slightly better. After that it was just changing the milieu with little to no changes in gameplay. Boring.

    Skyrim was the same as Oblivion. Both TSW and SWTOR relied on the tried and true tank 'n' spank combat even when their fiction allowed firearms. The weakest thing in Avatar was that its plot was essentially the same as Disney's Pocahontas or Dances with Wolves. More of the same? -No thank you.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon

    Combination of Both.

     

    I would recreate Asheron's Call with most of the systems in palce but many features that make Themeparks more fun, less grindy, more mainstream, and less time consuming.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by vgamer
    Let's be honest. If money is on the line, I would also follow the quick cash grab method as many companies did.

    Pretty much this ^.

    But to tell the truth, I wouldn't focus on 'new school vs. old school' at all. I think that's a trap many people fall into, and it doesn't lead to better games. You can encorperate aspects of both, and make a phenominal game. Hell, that's how companies like Blizzard & Trion built their popularity.

    If I was to make my own MMO, it would be far more beneficial to figure out the genre (fantasy, sci-fi, etc.) I wanted to do, and the mechanics / content I wanted to populate it with.

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