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How long will MMOs hide P2W behind the veil of FTP?

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  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

    MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

    MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

    Funny  you say this Most companys now what the market is and most are nearly tooled from day 1 for F2P, thats why games like SWTOR come out fast with F2P, because they know what  the market is all of them do, I know because I have worked in the industry for a long time, but why not try P2P?? They do this because it does work, F2P has flaws, you see more B2P in the coming years because F2P is flawed due to hackers, cheaters etc.. F2P makes the job way to hard for devs to manage ...This is why B2P and P2P is way better then this F2P, to many gamers want crap for free, well get a job, or get a new hobby.

     

    This drives me nuts how gamers think games should be free good make your own and let me play it for free and after all your hard work, you will see why they charge for it, so anyways the market is turning and will turn into B2p and some will keep B2P , F2P ois not gonna work and proven time and time again.

     

    People think when they see F2p and then say the game fails, well your wrong , its what the market is currenlty and companies need to do what the market is asking for , but as I said it won't last, we are already seeing games going B2P more and more, we will continue to see it because it works, and it helps keep good communitys.

     

    F2P offers nothing but lettiing the idiots in and no way to stop them , and continue to plague the industry with BS.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Blasphim

     


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    When we realized that most people that have money had to work for it

     

    Or someone in their family did. But I am not trying to say that people that have money shouldn't enjoy it. I work at a pretty decent job, and I regularly enjoy spending my paycheck :)

    What I am saying is, in a multiplayer game, especially one with any sort of competition or progression, it shouldn't matter that I ride a Harley, and you ride a moped. What should matter is how much skill we have, and how much effort we are willing to put into the game.

    I can understand and appreciate the thought of all being equal in an MMO format.  But then I can also understand the other point of view that being this is my downtime, my relaxation time.  I just want to play and have fun and that doesn't include grinding.  I don't consider leveling grinding necessarily.

    For example.  My very first mount in WoW, way back when it was 100 gold.  I hadn't spend a single copper peice and by the time lvl 40 had it I had at 20 gold.  Took me a week of grinding and farming to get that mount and in the end I wasn't proud of the mount, it was nothing special, a mild speed increase.

    Right then and there I decided I'd never play like that again, my sole reason for playing was to relax and have fun.  That waasn't relaxing or entertaining.  I'd rather have just paid for it.  Still like the rest of the game which is why I didn't quit at that time. 

    Now if there was a more enjoyable way to do it then I don't consider it grinding, but that was horrible.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by troublmaker
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Arclan

    MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

    MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

    You'll spend as much as you choose to, nothing or lots.  It's your choice.

    More choices re good.

    That's the heart of a problem.

    In Alcoholic's Anonymous you are taught that when you are addicted you are powerless.  For this reason you cannot choose to quit being an alcoholic but instead you have to let another aid you with controlling this problem.

    A person who has an addiction to a video game is going to uncontrollably pay out.  It will not be their choice it will be an addiction based behavior.  The fact that it is not made to feel like money only encourages this addiction.

     

     

    just because they peddle that bullshit on people in AA does not make it real, or make it a good example. People choose what they do.

    there is no need to defend people who have no grip on their self control.

    and demonizing video games, gamers, and companies are hobbies for people with very little awareness of... well... pretty much anything.

    some of you literally make me sick.

     

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    This drives me nuts how gamers think games should be free good make your own and let me play it for free and after all your hard work, you will see why they charge for it, so anyways the market is turning and will turn into B2p and some will keep B2P , F2P ois not gonna work and proven time and time again.

     How so? May MMOs turned F2P and are successful. More players. More money. More content.

    People think when they see F2p and then say the game fails, well your wrong , its what the market is currenlty and companies need to do what the market is asking for , but as I said it won't last, we are already seeing games going B2P more and more, we will continue to see it because it works, and it helps keep good communitys.

    You think it won't last? F2P has grown in the last 3 years from 39 to 50% market share. I suppose nothing last forever, but it is not going away in a year or two. 

     

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,401Member Uncommon

    I don't know, but Path of Exile has the best FTP model I've ever seen.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

    MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

     

    When old games like that go F2P, I dont see how its P2W, unless your realllllly impatient. Its the natural process for a dieing game.

    But look at games like LoL and PS2, those games have a nice model, but PS2 most definitly is P2W. But who cares if you love playing it?

    PS2 is the only FTP games I have ever spent money on, because I find it extremely fun to play, and I want to support it. When it comes down to it, that is all that matters.

    The sad part is, there are only a few companies willing to whip out something deep, something worthy of being called an MMO. So while FTP has its place, the others seem to have been forgotton. Maybe there is not room enough?

    One game company I am watching is CCP, if Dust can sell well, they will have the means to develop World of Darkness. That game just might be a true MMO, hopefully!!

    image
  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    I don't know, but Path of Exile has the best FTP model I've ever seen.

     

    This is true, but I wonder how far will bank tabs and cosmetics go?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Yakkin
    Originally posted by SirFubar
    P2W = pay to be more powerful than the ones who can't spend money in the cash shop. That is the real definition of P2W.

    If you REALLY stretch this definition, this could also apply to paid expansions in general. If you don't pay for the expansion, your character is permalocked at a lower level, which means less stats, poorer gear, and no access to higher level raids.

    Word.

    Cash shop games don't give free expansions.   They just add more content that has been monetized and/or increased the value of the current content that is already monetized.

    You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

    That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    How long? Well as long as there are jackasses willing to spend houndreds on virtual items. The whole reason F2P/P2W took of is because there are some gamers with more money than sense.
  • ariasaitchoariasaitcho Rapid City, SDPosts: 112Member

    1) F2P =/= P2W, though most P2W games are F2P.

     

    2) Most of the examples cited are games that were once sub, then went F2P/P2W.

     

    3) The idea that players who spend money on a "free" game shouldn't be rewarded for supporting the developer and/or publisher of that game is ludicris. However, the advantage that paying customers get should not be so overwhelming that customers who can't afford to shell out $$$ every month are marginalized from the game. Balance is the key. I don't mind someone who can only play on weekends shelling out extra dough so they can level faster. They have less playing time than I do, in the long run, I'll reach end game before they do. I do mind that weekend player shelling out for op pvp gear that makes him untouchable to all but those who also shelled out.

    "Hey we've got this really cool game with above average graphics, good game play, and awesome pvp. But unless you spend at least $50~100 a week you'll have no chance in pvp. So you'll have to make due with pve only."

    or

    "Build a character, quickly level that character to max or near max. Use that charcter as a sugar daddy for the character that you really wanted to build so you can pvp as you level and get the rewards for specific levels. Because unless you do that you'll have to spend $$$ on your character for each progressive level to have any shot what so ever of competing. That way only veteran players and players who can afford to shell out can really play. New players who can't afford to spend a lot or want to actually play their first character and learn the game; what a loser."

     

     

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  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

    MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment.

    MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.

    First off F2P or B2P is the norm now and the Subscription model is a dieing trend proven by market statistics.  Companies that are taking a massive hit are doing so because they released with an outdated subscription model and when they fail to bring in millions of subsciptions and lose money they eventually go F2P, and usually start thriving again.

     

    As for P2W, that is only an issue in Asian games or small studios.  Most Triple-A studios would never concieve of P2W.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

    That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

     

     

    Cash shop based games can release content with no upfront cost, but still require players to purchase cash shop items to take advantage of the new content.

     

    Simplest example is adding a new tier of equipment that requires players to upgrade with cash shop items. 

     

    How is this free content if it still requires payment to progress through it?

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

    That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

     

     

    Cash shop based games can release content with no upfront cost, but still require players to purchase cash shop items to take advantage of the new content.

     

    Simplest example is adding a new tier of equipment that requires players to upgrade with cash shop items. 

     

    How is this free content if it still requires payment to progress through it?

    A game could do that yes but is the new tier necessary? 

    Of course you have to determine if the tier is actually necessary or you just want it.  I've never had the top tier of gear in any game I've ever played and have managed to play them very well.

    Has any game done that?  Made the gear absolutely necessary?

    A p2p game could do that just as easily.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    How long? Well as long as there are jackasses willing to spend houndreds on virtual items. The whole reason F2P/P2W took of is because there are some gamers with more money than sense.

    I think these games need only a very very small percentage of whales. So i doubt this phenomenon is going away any time soon. There are always some who is willing to spend a lot on a game.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by snapfusion
    ...P2P - everything the game has to offer equals 14.99 per monthF2P - everything the game has to offer equals 100's a month and up

    FTW. Can't make it any simpler than this. Bravo, Snap!

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    You state your (often false) assumptions as fact on a regular basis. Please, if you really want to contribute to the conversation, do some research. Below are expansions from the F2P games I recently played. There was no charge for any of them or for the expansions prior.

    That said, how does some F2P games having paid expansions change the fact that an expansion in a subscription game fits the definition of Pay to Win?

    Cash shop based games can release content with no upfront cost, but still require players to purchase cash shop items to take advantage of the new content.

    Simplest example is adding a new tier of equipment that requires players to upgrade with cash shop items. 

    How is this free content if it still requires payment to progress through it?

    And going back to the original point, how are P2P games any less P2W?  If you don't buy the new xpac in an expansion then you don't get to progress either, and you're still paying $15/month.  The whole point of that argument is that someone claimed F2P as P2W and then went on to define the classic P2P expansion.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by snapfusion
    ...

     

    P2P - everything the game has to offer equals 14.99 per month

    F2P - everything the game has to offer equals 100's a month and up


     

    FTW. Can't make it any simpler than this. Bravo, Snap!

    Funny, because I see it this way...

    P2P - most of what the game has to offer for 100's per year plus whatever is in the cash shop... all rented for a limited time.

    Sub-Free - pay what you want and use it until the servers shut down.

    Every single Sub-Locked game I've played has cost me more per year than any Sub-Free game (B2P or F2P) I play.

    It's a fairly free world though.  I see nothing wrong with you burning your money on a recurring basis for no additonal gain.  I've just chosen not to support that "limited rental" method any longer.

  • FoeHammerJTFoeHammerJT Broken Arrow, OKPosts: 148Member

    Answer to this question:

     

    Until players quit paying to win!

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by snapfusion
    ...

     

    P2P - everything the game has to offer equals 14.99 per month

    F2P - everything the game has to offer equals 100's a month and up

     


     

    FTW. Can't make it any simpler than this. Bravo, Snap!

    Well, ftw if you consider winning to be a completely inaccurate statement not reflective of the games that are currently being.  By all means ftw.

    Personally I feelthat  completely fabricated statements are FTL.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    Not all free to play games are pay to win.  There's actually several games that I played that had purely cosmetic items for sell, and they made plenty of money.  It depends on what youre definition of Pay to Win means really.  Most games that are free to play also offer things like expirience boosts and things that make the game easier, but it's hardly pay to win.  Pay to win means that with enough money you have an advantage over players that don't.  Most Free to Play games that I've played, offer a way to buy some of the best things in the game, but they're still obtainable by free players with more work.  To me that's perfectly fine.  I'm more a journey guy anyways.  I'll never buy anything to make things easier or faster.  I miss games that used to take hours and hours of commitment to do something special.  I can remember sitting in my guild house for days in DAoC just crafting non-stop.  I can remember even older games where you could build houses, but it took 6000+ planks of wood, 1000s of ingots, and numerous other resources to build.  And to get those items you first had to go harvest them, then turn them into the items you needed to turn them into the items you needed to build the house.  It took months to do :)
  • ElijarhElijarh ViennaPosts: 73Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    When people stop paying?

    Yes sir.. Spot on!.  I used to Sub Mmo's in the past. Pay Nothing now. All this FTP/In-gameShop shite.

  • FoeHammerJTFoeHammerJT Broken Arrow, OKPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Gravarg
    Not all free to play games are pay to win.  There's actually several games that I played that had purely cosmetic items for sell, and they made plenty of money.  It depends on what youre definition of Pay to Win means really.  Most games that are free to play also offer things like expirience boosts and things that make the game easier, but it's hardly pay to win.  Pay to win means that with enough money you have an advantage over players that don't.  Most Free to Play games that I've played, offer a way to buy some of the best things in the game, but they're still obtainable by free players with more work.  To me that's perfectly fine.  I'm more a journey guy anyways.  I'll never buy anything to make things easier or faster.  I miss games that used to take hours and hours of commitment to do something special.  I can remember sitting in my guild house for days in DAoC just crafting non-stop.  I can remember even older games where you could build houses, but it took 6000+ planks of wood, 1000s of ingots, and numerous other resources to build.  And to get those items you first had to go harvest them, then turn them into the items you needed to turn them into the items you needed to build the house.  It took months to do :)

    How exactly do experience boosts not provide a significant advantage to those willing to pay for them?

     

    Also, companies have a history of starting with "cosmetic only" and then adding boosts, items, classes, races and every other bit of content they can in the interest of making some cash.

     

    I'm all about profitibility for a company; but not at the cost of me receiving an inferior product at a greater cost.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Blasphim

     


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Arclan MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment. MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.
    You'll spend as much as you choose to, nothing or lots.  It's your choice.

     

    More choices re good.


     

    Except when those choices provide a rift based on economic situations. If player A only has $15 a month to spare for his gaming hobby, but player B has $115 to spare, why should player A be "punished" cause he can't spend more in the cash shop?

    They aren't. No one is forcing them to play games like that.  Its all a matter of choice.  Not to mention that "P2W" is so vague that defining it is very much a matter of personal bias, in all too many cases.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FoeHammerJT
    Originally posted by Gravarg
    Not all free to play games are pay to win.  There's actually several games that I played that had purely cosmetic items for sell, and they made plenty of money.  It depends on what youre definition of Pay to Win means really.  Most games that are free to play also offer things like expirience boosts and things that make the game easier, but it's hardly pay to win.  Pay to win means that with enough money you have an advantage over players that don't.  Most Free to Play games that I've played, offer a way to buy some of the best things in the game, but they're still obtainable by free players with more work.  To me that's perfectly fine.  I'm more a journey guy anyways.  I'll never buy anything to make things easier or faster.  I miss games that used to take hours and hours of commitment to do something special.  I can remember sitting in my guild house for days in DAoC just crafting non-stop.  I can remember even older games where you could build houses, but it took 6000+ planks of wood, 1000s of ingots, and numerous other resources to build.  And to get those items you first had to go harvest them, then turn them into the items you needed to turn them into the items you needed to build the house.  It took months to do :)

    How exactly do experience boosts not provide a significant advantage to those willing to pay for them?

    Also, companies have a history of starting with "cosmetic only" and then adding boosts, items, classes, races and every other bit of content they can in the interest of making some cash.

    I'm all about profitibility for a company; but not at the cost of me receiving an inferior product at a greater cost.

    What significant advantage do those people get?  What should they get for paying money?

    You complain about significant advantage for xp boosts and then complain about the cost of receiving an inferior product?  So what should one get for the money they spend?  What is worth the money spent?

    Some P2P games have offered xp boosts, among other veteran rewards, for subbing a long time.  How is that any less P2W than just selling them in a cash shop?  You must pay over several years to get those.  Someone who is new to the game is at a severe disadvantage by comparison.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Blasphim

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Arclan MMO companies are taking a huge gamble; and enduring significant losses. All in the hopes that P2W becomes increasingly accepted every day. MMO companies don't mind losing a generation (the anti-P2W crowd of UO, EQ, etc) as long as the incoming generation accepts P2W as the norm. The result is you will be paying a lot more for less entertainment. MMOs are engineered, it seems, to last a few months. They want you to spend as much P2W money as possible in that time frame.
    You'll spend as much as you choose to, nothing or lots.  It's your choice.

     

    More choices re good.


    Except when those choices provide a rift based on economic situations. If player A only has $15 a month to spare for his gaming hobby, but player B has $115 to spare, why should player A be "punished" cause he can't spend more in the cash shop?

    They aren't. No one is forcing them to play games like that.  Its all a matter of choice.  Not to mention that "P2W" is so vague that defining it is very much a matter of personal bias, in all too many cases.

    That is true, but also the same logic could be applied to P2P system.  If player A doesn't have $15 per month but Player B does, why should Player A be punished because he can't afford the subscription?  That's the way life works.  If you can't afford something then you don't get to buy it.

    Most of us can afford some things, but not very many of us can afford everything, and a few of us can't afford any of the luxeries.  That's what we're all talking about here though, luxuries.  If you can't afford a luxury then you can't.  It's that simple.  Fortunately Sub-Free games doesn't require $115 / month to access the luxury.  They are actually more generous than the sub-locked games in that you can access them for no fees.

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