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[Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect
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But we're talking about words or thoughts here. It's a big difference. You choose to let them affect you, or you don't.
No one has the right to never be offended. We would all have to be forced to believe the same way, and act the same way, in order to make that happen. Who's going to decide what "right" is? Is it right to dictate to others how to think?
Just because others are different - act differently, believe differently - doesn't necessarily make them wrong.
That's the basic problem as I see it. There are those that do not mind trampling all over other people's freedom in pursuit of their own objectives, or to consolidate their own power.
As an example, if this article was found offensive to men in the way it uses broad strokes to smear a gender, its wrongful accusations, and its one-sidedness, should the article be deleted and the author censured?
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Well non of that described how me and my friends behave.
However lets talk about how some women use their charms to gain advantages in games. Ive known several of them in my history of gaming some of them have managed to break guilds cause they managed to woo the guild leader.
Though alot of what you describe is said about different groups for example hardcore gamers of a particular game will verbally destroy people who they think aren't good enough because they are casuals and make a mistake.
Where there is a way to attack someone people find it. This seems to be a part of human nature.
I had one mine deleted and i'm not even sure why. No notification or anything.
First, I think you wrote a very good article and conscientiously (imo) avoided successfully all of the pitfalls re: coming across as "shrill" or "strident" (at least to this man's perception). I'm 52 and have been watching the so-called "battle of the sexes" since before, during and after the Women's Liberation Movements of the late 1960's and 1970's (USA; I can't speak for other parts of the world. ) I was raised to believe (and still do) that women are fully equal to men regarding inherent humanity and personhood. You raise some very good questions; e.g. why are people so frequently unwilling or unable to practice basic civility and courtesy? Your question, which I feel is insightful, I would broaden to not just gamer-geek nerd males but to ask what it is exactly that men find so frightening about women? To both of these questions I would answer socialization aka culture and custom. I also realize that while I believe what I'm saying is true is in part also a non-answer, and one that women and men shall have to discover together, perhaps even with each succeeding generation until Humanity finally gets this right.
Yes, some men treat women as well as men very poorly. Some men treat guys poorly but women better. Yet other men treat the men okay but reserve special negative behavior just for females. It also works this way in reverse for how women treat men socially. Again, I feel the root of this has to do with Socialization entirely. Much of this has to do with a man (or woman)'s specific culture and unique upbringing. Often women are much more powerful to the male psyche than women would assume. Nor are we guys all that open about that. Some are not even self-aware. Being open potentially means being vulnerable, and for many male cultures being vulnerable is equated to weak or unfit or unprepared to assume a warrior role (should the need arise.) Personally, I believe the capacity to be open and even to potentially risk vulnerability requires a strength and fortitude often discounted. Add to this that frequently women/females/girls often surpass men/males/boys in language and linguistic capactiy. Yeah, I know I'm overgeneralizing. But like you I often "overanalyze" and have been accused on occasion of "thinking too much" by those whom I feel think too little. Consider how grade school girls and boys are often segregated either by custom or choice - the childhood phase of boys and girls finding the other gender "repulsive." The male gender has its share of Blockheads. Do you know any women who are mean-spirited to men simply because they can be?
So, yes, there are some men of all ages who act like Beavis and Butthead, preferring to hang out with one another with their pixilated images of what women are in some metaphorical treehouse, rather than growing up and being adult. On behalf of all adult men I would like to offer you apology, but I cannot apologize on behalf of misogynists and misogyny; nor am I a fan of misanthropy in any form. Re: the commentator who said "a fat nerd is a fat nerd" congrats on being an equally-opportunity misantrhope (detect Sarcasm!!) Who the bleep cares what another's "meat wrapper", the physical conveyance for her or his consciousness looks like in this context? Unless one is considering acts of physical intimacy, I simply hope the other person's body works well for them. I choose my friends based on their character, not outer appearance. For as long as Beavis and Butthead wish to masquerade as women doing pole-dances in GW2, Blade & Soul, etc. - note: I'm not suggesting this be banned - but for as long as males prefer their cherished images about women to the reality of who woman are, (imo) vive la difference peers, social understanding may elude the less bright.
Re: Civility. Courtesy isn't a dying art; it's a LIVING art. Hope we all practice it some. Happy gaming!
The best thing to do, when you have a question like that is to drop a PM to MikeB. In the years I've been here, he has been quite even handed and fair about things.
There won't be any change unless/until player anonymity is removed.
Anonymity is what fuels this. Same for online bullying of all kinds. That is why there is such a wave of panic anytime a company somewhere starts talking about people having to post under their real names. The bullies and cowards will run like roaches when a rock is lifted.
That said...
Your best bet in the meantime - and I know you will hate hearing this - is using whatever /ignore tools there are in a game and also just ignoring that person.
In Age of Conan, I once had this person following me around emoting really graphic and violent sexual assault on my female avatar. Certainly a violation of the TOS, but I have found reporting people does little. So what did I do? I stayed online but left the keyboard and went and did some chores (dishes, laundry, etc.). When I came back the the little perv was gone and I never saw him again. I believe he emoted himself out and eventually realized he wasn't getting a reaction.
That is what these guys feed off - your reactions. Treat them like they aren't there and they will move on.
Sadly, using logic to argue with them won't help. You have no idea who you dealing with. It may be someone with real mental or substance abuse problems. Or one of those sociopaths who simply cannot empathize with other people. Or just a sadist out for their own pleasure.
I think its disgusting how people can't even be a "geek" or a "nerd" now without having to prove themselves to this apparent geek "culture" that has sprung up.
Are we as bad as the jocks now? Flexing our computer skills and judging ones worth based on their knowledge of Superman comic books.
I always thought it was just about people who didn't fit in other places. Now it seems being a geek is as trendy as anything else. And the real geeks of today, are the people the "geeks" would call a loser.
I think the geek girl meme explosion is a good place to start, one of the problems is guy gamers are used to ripping on each other in a harsh way, and expect it, unfortunaltey that same behaviour when the subject is female is taboo, while guy gamers can make fun of each other for being fat, ugly, nerd ragers and disparage each other's sexuality and manhood, they can't apply this behaviour to the fairer sex.
So here we have an entire subculture that cut it's teeth on trash talking in games like counterstrike and ultima online, trolling and flame wars expected to somehow transform into a bastion of tolerance and chivalry. As games became less geeky and more mainstream more and more thin skinned newcomers (male and female) are dipping thier toes into these toxic waters and realizing to thier dismay that there is no sheriff, no regulator, no consequences and no incentive to part with over a decade of online anonymity and it's many drawbacks.
That's the reality here, despite everyone's desire to imagine that there is some nobility and decency in the community, there just isn't overall, and probably won't be until enough time has gone by that the first and second wave of online gamers have left the fold. Much like the workplace this is going to be a slow transition, and will be even more resisted because of anonymity and zero accountability beyond banning.
The best soloution is to join like minded communites and ignore the darker parts of gaming communites. The other side to that choice is to really leave those communites alone, stop trying to change them and stop trying to make them feel something they aren't capable of and aren't interested in attoning for.
I've seen both side of this, I've defended a female gamer in a voice chat and I've also had to sit through a guild desolving because another female gamer grew angry when men were too polite to her, and convinced the guild leader to kick out memebers that had refused to join chat channels she was in because she was obnoxious, on the basis they were being sexist.
And there's the other side of it, as much as guys are pigs, girls are bad in thier own way too, how many times has a guy been in a guild, had a girl join and because she might not get attention in her real life, decide to use her anonymity to stir the pot and cause a bunch of drama, wrapping a bunch of dudes around her finger and then wielding that influence to then cause problems for the males that choose not to play her game?
Permission to post a comment that doesn't break the rules or permission to post a comment that opposes their stance on the social issue? I'm lost.
+1
We do trashtalk a lot. It's a whole different thing to intentionally offend someone. There is a certain amount of rivalry that drives people to be better gamers.
There is a line that defines banter and insult and most of us choose not to cross it because we are decent people.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Is gaming a male arena? You only see what you want to see when it comes to anything.
Take a look at the TV sometime, try to find a scene where a man hits a women, good luck with that. Then try to find a scene where a women hits a man or a man hits a man or a women hits a women; easy peasey.
Take a look at adverts, if there is someone going to be made a joke of, made to look simple, stupid, have a practical joke pulled on them, it is always a guy. The one who does not know doing something a different way is better, it is a guy. The one who gets facepalmed into the floor, a guy.
Take a look at TV scheduling. Cooking, gardening and selling home shows. They are for both genders? I think not. Becoming famous by singing, every mans dream? I think not. Shows about plastic surgery, becoming a top model, dating shows etc etc etc. Have a look at today's TV guide and see how many TV programmes are made for men.
Gaming is an exception and hell you don’t like that! It not all about women, for women and run to your ethos and expectations.
So women have a awfully big slice of the cake from where I am sitting, in the entertainment industry everything is about them and for them. But then it is all down to perception and seeing what you want to see.
Would I air these views where my identiy is not concealed? No. Because we live in a society where political correctness has made every womens issue a burning news topic or an excepted reality. While mens issues do not exist.
Who are you telling another person what cloth they are gonna use and what is proper? Who are you telling another person how to direct your camera and what not? Its their own freaking choice. Why does a persons cloth have to do anything with their credibilitiy? You are part of the issue that the article takes up. Without even knowing it.
As a female gamer, and French to boot, I have had more than my fair share of being called all sorts of things, being told what would happen to me, how horrible I am, etc. by all sorts of gamers. Everyone gets it in online games, it seems to attract the cesspool of humanity.
Here is how I handle it :
1) I use the ignore function liberally. If someone is clearly being an asshat towards anyone insulting x, talking about what he is going to do to someone else's mom, sister, other random relative, spouse, making denegrating comments about ethnicity, culture, nationality, whatever, he gets slapped on ignore. If someone is rude towards me or someone else, he gets slapped on ignore. I give guildmates in WoW a 3 strikes, he is out (by he I mean in general, not men specifically). Anyone I don't know is 1 strike. I have a 0 tolerance policy. Even if the person is just having a moment of temporary asshattery, I do not want to associate myself even in a game environment with people who lose control and get their kicks from making other people feel bad or creating unnecessary drama. Gaming needs etiquette and the realization that other people want to game in peace too.
2) If someone has targetted me for being female and causes more disruption, I report them or petition a GM. If it is a guildmate that is in an important position, I leave the guild and find a better suited one.
3) I categorically refuse to create sexy female characters. If I play female characters, I make them interesting i.e. battle worn vets, strong women who wear heavy armour or gear that makes them look like they are seasoned adventurers. Women don't want their vital areas injured anymore than men do, so no chainmail bikinis, miniskirts, high heels, etc. If 80% of any armour set suddenly disappears when I put it on a female character, in comparison to a male character, or if I can't make female characters that are strong, I am not interested in rolling one and so I play male characters only. There are plenty of games where I only have male characters. Even if I can generate strong female characters, I keep a 50/50 ratio. You would be surprised how many men do not hit on strong female characters (just look at female orcs in WoW). If I play a male character, I get treated as a man and that is totally fine by me.
4) I never forward that I am female in real life unless I get into a guild or meet other women while playing. I do not talk on vent. If somehow the cat gets out of the bag, I make sure my male partymembers and guildmates realize that I am one of the guys. I never, ever, try to weasle stuff out of people. I do however feel ok with asking for help sometimes but with the understanding that I help others in return. Give and take is great ! If I am grouped up, I am one of the team, whether it is for PvP, RvR, raiding, dungeon-running, doing something silly.
5) When the imbeciles come out en force in chat, I turn it off.
After adopting these points in my playstyle, I have personally had few problems in MMORPGS recently.
However, the harassment suffered by female gamers in CS tournaments, in gaming conventions, and by female members of staff in game companies by the gaming community has got to stop ! That is much worse than being harassed ingame, when you can ignore people or choose not to play with them. I am a little surprised that no one is talking about that aspect of this article. Perhaps there is room to have a female-oriented gaming convention or two, means to attract more female devs, writers, scripters, and programmers, more strong female gaming clans...
Women gamers are here to stay and there are more of us all the time, and no matter of trying to drive us off will succeed. We will be designing, playing, and competing more and more in the gaming industry.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Erm, well if she is being a hypocrite, then it is perfectly in the right of a person to call her out on it. I don't condone the behaviour of some women trying as hard as they can to use their sexual attributes to attract attention and then denigrate men who are attracted to them because of it. Sure doesn't mean that they should insult her of course, but she should accept responsibility for her actions too.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
This is an interesting post. I am an advocate for sexual equality across the board and I have wondered about a lot of these things too. However, shutting women gamers out of video games is not the answer. We are not the enemy...
In my case, I just want to play and enjoy myself, and be part of the team, not treated differently because I happen to be part of the 47% of the world population that is not male. I don't insult male gamers for being male, and I want to enjoy myself ingame, not be reminded that I am a piece of s... like in real life.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I am not questioning if the incidents in the article occured, I just never heard of them, nor did I realise this was an issue.
Because honestly, this is geek culture, if there is ANY community that holds women in higher regard then please show me?
Sexism is a real issue, and should be fought everywere, but gaming does not seem to be the frontline to me.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I certainly want women in gaming, just don’t expect it to conform to your idea of what’s important in life like the rest of the media has.
As for the insults, we do get insults of all sorts in gaming and online for many reasons. Gaming is pointed at so much because you are communicating with strangers who can say whatever they want. Expecting that to go like a chat at the office is a bit much.
But that is no excuse; I have seen appalling texts in MMO’s which have no place in our games. I could suggest the Chat Filter, but sometimes it goes beyond that, verbal vitriol more than the words used.
I also think this reflects the young age base of many MMO’s. I have heard pre-teens speaking on PS2 who have suddenly realised they should not be speaking as it gives game away about their age. But I would point out that what they were saying was fine.
As the last poster said I don't exactly see gaming as a bastion of sexism, I just see it more as part of the entertainment industry that is not totally pandering to women.
Finally all the women I know who play online are aware of what the OP is saying but that does not stop them playing. That’s the main thing, don’t let the buggers get you down.
This is the problem with people. I HAVE LARGE CLEAVAGE! I was born with it. I AM SORRY THAT I AM ME! What do you want? I can not hide them and I like my shirts. Just because I am a girl I have to be a nun? This is not hypocrtical.
Please also quote when the last time boobs were in my title. This is an out right lie. I usually say something about kpop and possibly panda's, so you are wrong on this front. People just can not take a joke.
My webcam is on a TV I can not do anything about the angle.
This is the problem with people. They think everything has another motive. Some times s**t is just what it is. I am a girl. I wear clothes I like, not what you like. and I have a tv which gives a angle to the webcam.
This is exactly the problem because people see women as meat. I am a person and I deserve to feel sexy/happy/whatever I want.
How? You want me to accept action for being born the way I am? Where do I sign up?
BTW I have multiple cuts of shirts I wear, but most of you only notice one.... weird....
Now I have said it a million times, I understand who and what I am and what I look like. I expect people to come after me because of my "special" features. What I was mainly commenting on is people in game who have never seen me, attacking me for being a girl.
Also, how is it not sexist to tell me what to wear and to expect these a**hats? I shouldn't have to deal with it no matter what. People should just be nice and if they dont like what I was born with, who cares? Why are you watching a gaming stream to focus on my boobs? How much entertainment can that really be? Eventually you will get bored and move on if that is your intent.
I stream cause I think I am a enjoyable person to watch have fun and have fun with my viewers. Plus it is like a guild in some ways, you always have a friend in game!
Does sum this current dicussion rather well. And now we also have the verbal attack on how LadyEuphei (that are doing a great deal in creating a good gaming community enivorment compaired to many of us) are behaving to put on the list that begun the text I quoted. A freaking shame tbh.
The problem lies in parenting. Most of the parents of these kids on the net today were too busy to teach them manners. Let's face it far too many parents are way too busy to spend time teaching kids ethics, just look at all the cheating that goes on in many of these games.
I don't think I have seem so many clueless posts on this board confirming exactly what the author is complaining about. Really guys, isn't about time you wised up a bit. Going to be a bit hard finding a decent mate with some of the attitudes I see on display here.
The problem is weak men and women who get offended by jiggle physics. The problem will never be resolved by fingerpointing. *Please note I am not saying that all men and women fit in these catagories...I can hear the typing now.
If you think this is such a problem then form your own all girl gaming company. If your games outsell what the boys are selling than you hit them where it counts. Their pocketbook.
I think we, the females, need to realize we are coming into a world where giggle tracks and jiggle physics are a reality. Personally I find them rather funny, and I tend to laugh about it with the guys in my guild, who for the most part also find it rather silly. If a guy wants to claim I'm not good at gaming I let him have his opinion and shrug it off. Who cares what some idiot thinks? My guildmates still call on me all the time and those are the people who really matter to me. My friends.
I can't help but think that the events enumerated on the list in this post do not require the gaming industry to happen. You can take out video games and insert just about any other topic and have the same problems. Instead of a gaming convention party insert frat party. Instead of gaming team insert just about any sport. These problems do not originate in gaming. Hence my opening comment.
These things will start to change when some women stop wailing and knashing their teeth about things like jiggle physics and giggle tracks and laugh at them instead. When we start ignoring the senseless and highlighting strong men who are not threatened by a beautiful, intelligent, or talented woman working in the gaming industry (and I would argue their are many who may be too busy working to come jump into some senseless online fray - honestly we shouldn't be giving these silly things as much credence as we do). We need to highlight when a strong man stands up to the weak men and tells them to grow up. We must choose to be positive and enjoy our games regardless of what some of these weak men say.
If we continue to scream and wail we will always be seen as "raging women who want to take away what boys like about video games." They forget that we tend to like the same things, except for the overly large jiggling bazangas, but if we can learn to laugh at it, maybe they will learn to laugh at it, and perhaps it will not be so present in videogames. If that doesn't happen however, I don't mind, because sometimes it can be comedy gold. It's all about how you choose to look at things.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar