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For my 2 cents..
I know the OP doesn't want to get into "who's to blame" thread, and I will do my best not to.. hmm How to make the community better? From where I sit, that is easy, however, it will come at a cost.. (maybe) The tone of today's games has changed from being a true PvE enviroment to an indirect PvP enviorment.. Before I explain my solution, we must first understand the issue I'm addressing.. Most of the main MMO's today that I have played have factions.. Whether it be Horde vs Alliance, or Sith vs Republic etc etc.. Even within each faction there are guild rankings.. This isn't true PvE, but it's PvP indirectly.. It is still one side vs the other.. I don't mind that such servers or realms exist for those PvP minded players, however for someone like me, I do not want to be confined to a PvP design..
Using WoW as the example, do I have the option as a human to gain faction with the Ogres so that one day I can walk into Ogrimaar without being KOS? NO.. Can I group up with the undead? NO.. Sure the game claims to be PvE, but that is only a mask for it's true "ESport" design.. Adding in features such as raid lockouts, and limits only corners the playerbase more, where many feel they have to pick and choose who they associate with..
So, that being said.. If you want to better the community we need to start designing games to promote COMMUNITY play.. How do we (or the devs) do this?
Originally posted by Yakkin Originally posted by Alberel Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'. IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards. The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc. I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.
Call me cynical, but frankly that sounds more like it would perpetuate a "I'll be nice to this guy only because he gives benefits. I still don't give a shit about him because he is my ticket to loot" mentality.
The thing is that mentality only arose from the dungeon finder because there is no persistance to the players you group with. Every group in the dungeon finder is with a new bunch of randomers and so you never have the time to actually build a friendship with any of them. In games like FFXI and the early days of EQ2 that I mentioned you would regularly group with the same people simply because you'd likely be in the same area for a couple of days... as a result you develop a friendship and this evolves into a network of players across the game over time.
It's precisely because interaction between any two given players is so fleeting and inconsequential in modern MMOs that the general community has fallen to its current state. Build a game where any two given players will interact repeatedly over a span of time and you'll be more likely to see those players get along and less likely to see them antagonise each other (because they'll actually have to put up with the consequences).
mmo communities went downhill when people did not need to depend on their community. It used to be if you got a bad name that was it, you may as well reroll (and that meant more than a few weeks worth of work). Now you can just solo/auto-group with dungeon finders through everything.
The fix is to reverse that, it would of course cut the mmo population down to around 10% of its current size.
I think you need to step back, wow! The way you describe the community, makes it sound horrible!
There are simple ways to improve your gaming exp. Dont group with jerks, use your ignore list and friends list, try and develop and build your own group of like minded players.
Ignore the trolls and jerks, AND STOP SPREADING FEAR AND HATE.
There are more and more articles like this everyday, turning the gaming community into the same cesspool our society has become, full of hate and fear of each other.
Originally posted by Sidraket mmo communities went downhill when people did not need to depend on their community. It used to be if you got a bad name that was it, you may as well reroll (and that meant more than a few weeks worth of work). Now you can just solo/auto-group with dungeon finders through everything. The fix is to reverse that, it would of course cut the mmo population down to around 10% of its current size.
This is an excellent point.
I remember in the early days of DAOC, this would happen to people who treated others badly. They were almost forced to reroll because in those days you could not solo easily.
Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by Sidraket mmo communities went downhill when people did not need to depend on their community. It used to be if you got a bad name that was it, you may as well reroll (and that meant more than a few weeks worth of work). Now you can just solo/auto-group with dungeon finders through everything. The fix is to reverse that, it would of course cut the mmo population down to around 10% of its current size.
That was back when Players found MMOs because they were looking for something like them, hoping to find them. Now MMOs find Players on Endcaps at Walmart, on advertisements everywhere, etc. I have believed and said for years there are many MMO Players that wouldn't have even given MMOs a look see if it hadn't been pushed on them.
That doesn't mean that this huge majority aren't decent People, it just means MMOs would not have been something they sought out on their own.... and that there is the Key. Back when we played DAoC when it was new the Players valued their access to that MMO, and valued their reputations, because they did not want to lose the ability to play the game and stay connected to the friends they had made. No Facebook yet, no Twitter, only emails and forums, so most Player knew if they screwed up they would lose for the most part.
Now, it's differnent. Players are encouraged by other Players to be selfish, mean, obnoxious. That's the real game right there....and the MMOs generally speaking are just a tool for a Player to build their bad reputation so highly valued, and when they get banned from a MMO they just go to their Facebook page and brag about it.... and other People encourage them for doing so. It doesn't matter if Players lose access to a MMO now, there are a hundred others to go play in. They don't see that they lost anything, only gained oveerall.
This all comes down to Personal ethics. We humans spent thousands of years trying to figure out a way to act civil with each other in real life, and now we think we don't have to on the Internet.... that just goes to show you and I that most People that act nice in real life only do so because they have something to lose if they don't. We Humans are monsters without Ethics and Laws, and the Internet does not change that at all, it makes it even more relevant.
Just think about THAT last part for a few moments and then ask yourself if there is anything we all could do to make MMO communities better.
This is what I do: I act ingame in MMOs that I play just like I would act in real life. I use and apply the Great Laws to all interactions with myself and others while on the Internet. To me there is no difference between real life and Internet life, one is atoms, one is pixels, dust and dust. No difference even if the other Players never know my real life name. My choice.
What's my biggest "Objector" to how I do things on the Internet and in MMOs? Players? No, most Player appreciate that I choose not to steal their stuff and grief them..... No the group that objects the most me treating People with respect and dignity is actually Developers trying to safeguard Player "rights" in MMOs to be able to do what they please, in most cases it's Developers that allow Player griefers, thieves, and ashats to do what they do and it's all protected in the name of "Player Freedom". I see their point of view, as MMOs would suck if all our actions were governed rigidly.... but the opposite extreme like what we have right now is just as bad in my opinion.
So rather than get into an argument with these Devs on why I think it's a bad idea to let a Player be a jerk to others ingame, (which arguing is what I did for years with no succes), now I simply no longer play MMOs much like I used to. When the Players mostly want to be selfish gits and the Devs side with them for the most part then any example I might give with my behavior is lost and ignored, and I just end up being another target. It's the jerks that win.
If more People using the Internet chose to act with some lawful and socially cooperative Ethics then maybe Communities in MMOs wouldn't be so bad, but that is something that may take years to take hold. It's all a matter of personal choice on how we choose to behave and conduct ourselves while on the Internet and in MMO Gaming.
tldr; Personally choosing to act civil and respestful to other Players in a MMO makes the Community better AND keeps MMOs free from gamepaly ruining restrictive gamerules forced thru coding. Players "playing nice" is the only solution. THAT is a big part of what made MMOs so fun early on years ago. Back then we chose to act civil and respectful out of fear that we might lose our connection to our MMO.... Now we must chose this path because it's what's best for all concerned for the long run. Not all Players will chose to do this but the more that do, the better.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei Originally posted by Vunak23 This community is damaged internally and bleeding from every orifice. You would need nothing short of a miracle to turn the gaming/internet community into something that could even be considered civil. Anonymity will always bring out the worst in people because nobody cares enough when it takes a few minutes to create a new user account.
Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution. What can we as a community come up with to fix this problem. I am think some kind of a anti-a**-hat community or maybe a gamer approved community or something where if you are a a** hat you get reported and taken off the list or something. I do not know guys that is why I though together we could come up with something great!
The core problem of all social policing remains: who makes the call?
Who do we elect to be hanging judge? Think we can all agree that any one person/people are "not-asshat" enough to judge others?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Alberel Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'. IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards. The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc. I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.
+1 I agree totally!
When you had a few 100k in the original EQ, and it was basically the only game in town, you were on your best behavior at all time because if you werent your rep preceded you and you soon found yourself groupless and guildless. In truth its one of the reasons I love VG so much, as its very group-centric and to me harkens back to those days that I find myself missing so much. To see a majority of things in game you need a group, to get a group you need to interact, and interact in a positive manner. As Ive stated before civility, courtesy and good manners never go out of style. In game or in RL I have to ask myself before I want to do/say something "what would my mom say about this" And Im just about starting my 5th decade on this planet.
I like League's way of handling. Being an on and off again player over the past year I've noticed that the game's a great place to be. That's at higher levels btw. I'm sure the lower levels with people on nerf accounts and what not talking the shit they usually do is pretty standard.
It'll be up to companies to enforce Codes of their own. Or communities at that.
I know it doesn't alwys work. XBL is still pretty hit or miss in that department. I know people get banned (why was I banned forum is epic) but it doesn't seem to be enough.
I'm in the 'try everything and see what sticks' camp for ideas like this. It's better than doing nothing.
a yo ho ho
The problem with this community is that it tends to bash any MMO that is not an open world sandbox.
Every new themepark MMO that is introduced is immediately labled a WoW clone and declared to be doomed to fail like SWtoR.
MMORPG.com has been labled the "Sandbox MMO Hipster Hangout. If you don't play sandbox MMO's, don't go there."
If this community stops doing that, there might be a chance. Until then, you will continue to have a bad reputation. That's how it goes.
And I realize this topic is about the gaming community in general, but I'm leaving up my post because it is the truth regarding this particular web site.
Originally posted by MyTabbycatThe problem with this community is that it tends to bash any MMO that is not an open world sandbox.Every new themepark MMO that is introduced is immediately labled a WoW clone and declared to be doomed to fail like SWtoR.MMORPG.com has been labled the "Sandbox MMO Hipster Hangout. If you don't play sandbox MMO's, don't go there." If this community stops doing that, there might be a chance. Until then, you will continue to have a bad reputation. That's how it goes.
The community will never be like it was when MMO's were fringe and fresh.
Also, with the introduction of "themepark games"(i cringe using that term) the game developers have made it so that community is no longer important. In the early days of EQ, UO and games like DAOC, community was the glue that held these games together.
With the later themepark games, games became more like co-op games. I can also say that instanced dungeons and mini-games within MMO's also helped move away from community cohesiveness and the social aspect all together.
I use to enjoy meeting people in dungeons and hooking up in pug's in games like DAOC. Thats how i met most of the commmunity.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei tl;dr How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
Abhorrent gaming communities are a symptom of society as a whole.
Try fixing the world entire, and I'm sure it will roll down to smaller groups.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
The same exact way I would solve the world population problem. Nuke everyone and start over. Even the best of us. Nuke it all and let a higher power sort it out.
Originally posted by Acidon Originally posted by LadyEuphei How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
That really isn't going to solve anything.
Why would second timearound be any better?
Lets start by saying I agree with the Summoners Code, it is generally common sense and best to enforce it, and follow it as much as possible.
1. The problem I find with the League OF Legends community is Trolls, Griefing,Annoying people all the time everytime I play a random game most of the time I get matched with Trolls. These people are Toxic by either cursing, rude remarks calling others retards for being new, or very harsh verbal/adult language.
Other times they are Ping Spamming, Calling False information to the team, or passively trolling like letting mates die on purpose, or intentionally feeding, and I do not mean new players.
These are the players I Ignore, sometimes I tell them to stop or they get muted/ignored in game so I do not have to hear anything from them, however by doing such I can get banned too.
2. I have been suspended a couple of times for use of the F word It was deserved because it went against the summoners code, but like 3 suspensions were due to Trolls in Random Games, and were completely childish and should have never even made it to the tribunal I reviewd the logs there was no lewd conduct not even the use of an F word in them, or any swear word for that matter just me muting a team who refused to communicate, ping spammed, and or being annoying, in fact they are the ones who cursed and I got suspended for refusing to work with the team which is not true because videos recorded actually would prove otherwise.
3. How to fix the Tribunal.
There is no easy way given the fact any experienced griefer knows how to bypass a Hardware, or IP ban it makes no sense, however if they started hardware banning griefers the unexperienced kids would not know how this would work to a certain point.
But the actual way to fix the tribunal is to do something like.
1. The Tribunal can be abused with the voting system by toxic players themselves, so having a tribunal really doesn't help given the fact multiple accounts can vote and cheat the tribunal on poeple.
2. Riot Games needs to instead of games going to the tribunal, provide replays, stats, and feedback to the tribunal, for example if I cursed X Player out I broke the summoners code, but if they started something and they caused me to swear they could be punished as well by a subreport option, and GM's would be notified of it.
3. Removal of the Tribunal All Together, which I doubt they would do but it prevents the abuse.
4. The current honor system is useless all around it serves no purpose really other than a fancy ribbon can be abused, and there is no way to dehonor a player it made no sense ever introducing this.
(The Ultimate Solution IMO.)
5. Riot Games, are just morons when they think banning a player even a pro player will resolve anything instead of banning players if a person is reported these logs should be made public records and remain there for the rest of a players life maybe 2-3 years max. Basically what this does is it would provide a replay of the game as well, what every player in the game said and did, and if enough reports are filed on X player, and player is actually breaking the summoners code GM's would hand down a punishment, and that would reset their punishment so basically the old reports would remain there but no longer be used as they were warned/punished by those but future reports would be, after a player has actually been deemed toxic a GM would then ban the persons Hardware information aka MAC address from accessing the game again or something like this.
The problem with the Tribunal is it is open to abuse all around, I have tried to trust in it some players are responsible some are not, I would say most of the tribunal community is TROLLS, its not even worth having a Tribunal, and in fact the players I report who are really toxic go in a Direct Ticket To Riot For example those who make RL threats or actual behavor that is more than an annoyance.
I feel that regular players that are not responsible enough should not even be allowed to vote in the tribunal, a person who participates in the tribunal if they even kept it should have to.
1. Be Level 30.
2. Played over 500 games
3.Take a Test On The Summoners Code & Pass it only one chance every so many months and timed as well on each question.
4. Have a good standing and not be toxic themselves.
5. Good sound and decision, and the ability to punish multiple players in a single game who are breaking the code, as well as additional stats provide like Video Replays & such. To provide with a better situation of what is going on.
Last but not least Muting your Entire Team for any or no reason at all should not be punishable but a lot of tribunal users vote its punishable even if they were trolling you. Now I agree refusing to communicate is punishable,but if someone is annoying in any way at all then you have the right to mute them or the team to avoid raging, and enjoy your game. After all when joining a game we are stuck with random players we don't know how they are going to play or anything.
(Banning isn't always the solution.) It also requires manual investigation and proof.
Then you see Banning a player who has spent lots of money in their game and now has nothing to loose with the same skills in evading bans like me they could have fun destroying and making the community even more toxic, perhaps even join a griefer community and grief the game on a big Lulz day with all their friends, and I wont give the names of these griefer groups but I know of a lot of them. My point is some playes who have been suspended, or banned never deserved it, while I personally find it rare, I am sure it has happend, and Riot isn't showing me evidence they deserved a ban, and I mean a perm ban not a suspension because of being banned by tribunal trolls too much.
Originally posted by Kyleran Citadel of Sorcery has an interesting idea, when you block a player they not only don't show up on your chat channel, they literally get totally blocked from your sight in the game. Enough folks do that to an ass hat and they'll soon get they message to behave or be alone. Novel concept, hope they can bring their vision to light.
I love this idea! You basically erase the guy from existence.
Although I still think it would be better to try and improve the community from the ground up in some kind of positive way instead of only punishing people.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Provide more ways for the playerbase to segregate into smaller, like-minded communities. I know the whole politically correct thing is a utopian lovefest of tolerance and respect, but if we sit that treehugging crap aside and look at things realistically, the more a playerbase is allowed to divide itself into smaller groups of people with related wants/interests the less prevalant trolling, antagonism and conflict is. League of Legends is a perfect example. There are few separate channels. Everyone of every background, playstyle, age, skill level, etc is all mashed into the same chat channels. Aside from the toxic influence of anonimity you also have a diverse array of all levels of tactless socially stunted morons who can't be educated on how to act in mixed company because for the past twenty years, everyone told them they special snowflakes... oh, and they have 'freedom of speach." And if you want to make LoL look peachy keen, check out SMITE, where there's even less separation and in the level 1-6 range, it's hard to find a match where someone isn't spewing personal attacks because some new player didn't telepathically know to do what that dude was thinking is the optimal strategy. Sex, politics and religion are three things you don't bring up in mixed company. The standard internet responses are: I shouldn't have to hide who I am or how I feel about things. If they can't handle it they can put me on ignore. The tactless jackasses that feel those are acceptable answers are the problem, not the guy that simply reacted to the controversial, and probably not even game related, garbage that got brought up. However, if a game offers places that groups can readily access as meeting places, custom chat channels, channels for different languages, etc then a lot of the problems are solved. See, if the LGBT crowd is having a conversation about same sex marriage in local, they're going to get responses from those that might have a problem with it or those that might jsut want to troll the crap out of them. If they had a channel or physical location in game where they can meet and talk, much more civil discourse occurs. The same with religion, politics parenting, current events, war/military, etc. When it's one local/global pile-on, it's harder to enforce civility. However, if you have a [special interest] channel and or location, it's easier to punt offenders and enforce some level of civility because the antagonist has to make a point to join or travel to that channel or location. For the past ten years, MMOs have become more of a massive heap of everything in one channel. It's IRC hell without a damn @op or bot in sight to clean it up. I honestly think most devs wouldn't even know where to begin to put social tools back into MMOs, let alone actually start doing it, especially whn they always have the 'you can put them on ignore' cop out readily at hand. The way to create game communities from a game's playerbase, is to allow people to function like people and not some utopian ideal of the way people should act if Ghandi and John Lennon redesigned the universe.
That sounds like you want to let people establish click (I dont know the proper spelling, but its like small groups of people and is usually associated with the highschool crowd) Clicks cause disturbance between groups. The groups stat fighting eachother and individuals that want in the click start fighting to be allowed in.
I am not sure if this is the answer we are looking for, even if this is what human nature wants. I know the utopia thing is hard, but if you aim at moving the moon, you may end up atleast moving mountains!
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Although an innovative and unique idea, I do not believe this is the best answer
Originally posted by LadyEupheiHow do you think we can fix the gaming community?
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by azzamasin Thats why for the most part I only play PvE with minimal conflicts. So no raiding because it promotes connflict and drama. Open Ended exploration centric is all I care for.
Yes, this has been discussed. Taking the competition out of a game and making it so people are happy to see another player instead of angry they are going to steal their mob/loot/whatever.
My only problem is I like sandbox games, so I would like to see something that could work on a competitive community. Only making on kind of game just ends up being boring.
I really think there is some positive way of atleast pointing players in the right direction. Something that will make them want to be good, not have to be good. I just do not know what it is yet...
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Originally posted by LadyEuphei How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
mind control, huh? Not a terrible idea LOL! you can always save yourself with a tin foil hat!
***choreographed dance----> lol I don't know why I thought of that***
People are not evil, mean, cruel by nature. Atleast I do not believe they are. Something is making these generally good people act evil. Most people I know that act like a** hats sometimes, end up not being bad at all out of games. Some of them are the nicest people I know.
Something is pushing people in the wrong direction, telling them to be mean. That is the mind control. I want people to be them selves! Be timid, happy, nice, kind, whatever you are. Right not a large amount of people fall into the category of a** hat and I do not think the general population is all a**hats.
So no, it is not mind control, it is mind freedom! I want people to be themselves instead of being these cruel people they turn into only on the internet.