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Originally posted by Magnum2103 Originally posted by jimdandy26 I honestly believe the answer is real ID. Blizzard was very much on the right track in my mind. The only real concession would be screen name versus real life name but only to have that outlet that many want. Lock everyone to a single account to use across the internet as a hole. People would cut down on the majority of bullshit if there were actual real consequences for their actions. Would it stop all of it, most certainly not (no system can) but just as in the real world the vast majority of it would disapear.
No, Real ID is not the answer. Real ID is a serious breach of privacy and leaves you more suspectible to hackers and worse. I don't need people with severe issues or psychological problems looking me up online when they get angry about something I did in game (which more often than not is an issue with them not me, as I try to play as nice as possible in game). Because my first and last name is one a kind it's fairly easy to look up information on me if you have my full name, and that makes a hacker, sociopath, or unstable person with a grudge having that sort of information is not a good thing. It's bad enough when you can get harassed in game by someone and eventually either get them banned or having a GM make them stop, but if they have enough information about you personally there is nothing stopping them from doing this is real life either.
Not to mention if they manage to take control of your account they could potentially tarnish your reputation in real life. It's not impossible for a hacker to get a hold of your account through no fault of your own. Blizzard who uses the real ID system for example.
That is a piss poor argument honestly. Not much different from the ones that people were using to get DnD banned in the 80's because some kids decided to larp with real weapons and got hurt, or the ones that went "real metal" and started worshiping Satan and the like using it as a surrogate.
Originally posted by Magnum2103 I already replied to a post above stating the problems of a Real ID system. I think the notion that it would magically create a decent community is absolutely absurd, especially since it is used in Blizzard games and these games aren't exactly known for stellar communities (in fact quite the opposite). You may not have a wall of anonymity, but probability also means that a person you are griefing likely won't ever deal with you in real life (much less recognize you) so you could still troll/grief/harass away, and having a person's real name gives TRUE sociopaths much more leverage to cause harassment or worse to you that could impact your real life due to the lack of anonymity. Look at threats and harassment cases of certain celebrities, politicians, radio hosts, and bloggers. A lack of anonymity opens you open to all kinds of harassment. Also it's not as if I can't use make an account under the guise of someone elses name and harm their reputation.
You missed what I am saying. You cannot do this on a single game, or even company, level and expect it to succeed. Especially when the system that has been put in place by Blizzard is nowhere near as enforced as it should be. The internet in general needs an effective set of laws put in place to curtail the pure anarchy that currently exists. The human race in general does not have the collective maturity to deal with real freedom. Personal accountability is the only answer that has been found throughout our entire history to combat the problem that currently exists.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by Wighty Blizzards system is optional or only used with friends... not really sure of the specifics. Currently there is no consequence, no accountability. Perhaps it was naieve of me to state magically change... there is still cyberbullying in Facebook and other social platforms where real names are involved... why not in gaming though... The only other solution? Bans like LoL, force the community to be civil by investigating and banning people that have enough "red flags" against them. Community tribunal... As a complete side note develops that create games with consrquence like Age of Wushu (characters Jailed, bounty, etc) are far more civil for an open PvP game that say Darkfall where the community is just plain vile elitists.
I agree on the accountability part, but people don't need to see who you are. It just needs to be set up so that your actions can be held liable towards you.
I also liked the idea of allowing people to group themselves better, but I find that the type of people that group themselves are not the problem. It is the people that don't seek to be in groups are usually the ones that don't respect others.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
Everyone being nice to each other is the simpilist solution
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
Originally posted by LadyEuphei Originally posted by Vunak23 This community is damaged internally and bleeding from every orifice. You would need nothing short of a miracle to turn the gaming/internet community into something that could even be considered civil. Anonymity will always bring out the worst in people because nobody cares enough when it takes a few minutes to create a new user account.
Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution. What can we as a community come up with to fix this problem. I am think some kind of a anti-a**-hat community or maybe a gamer approved community or something where if you are a a** hat you get reported and taken off the list or something. I do not know guys that is why I though together we could come up with something great!
What it would take is a common consensus to suddenly sweep the users of sites like this, something that will never happen. The only alternative would be people realizing opinion isn't fact, it will differ from person to person, in turn people would learn to respect another's opinion. Something else I do not see happening.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The only way to stop irrational behavior is to educate people freely. Any attempt to force it to be "good" is a sure sign of nanny state obsession.
Role models, technologies, videos, stories, all help reduce unwanted behavior.
Some games are literally designed in such a way that it is asking for all the idiocy and it makes me want to punch the developers of such games.
Trying to segregate people into different play groups seems like a good idea...
However when was the last time you were on an RP game server... Global chat is still nothing more than a glorified 4chan chatroom... The developers have no interest in enforcing this, and it almost seems as if some people join RP servers just to douche it up a bit...
Using real information is the only way... I mean all your information is already out there, on Facebook, twitter, linkedin. and whatever else social media there is... why should this be any different unless you are the one that is trying to hide?
I also think games, free or otherwise should require a credit card to sign up and only useable for one account... this not only establishes age (or at least a consenting adult) but prevents players from creating dozens of accounts.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Originally posted by Plasmicredx The only way to stop irrational behavior is to educate people freely. Any attempt to force it to be "good" is a sure sign of nanny state obsession. Role models, technologies, videos, stories, all help reduce unwanted behavior. Some games are literally designed in such a way that it is asking for all the idiocy and it makes me want to punch the developers of such games.
Man i want what this guy is smoking...
In truth I to some degree think a lot of gamers are pretty educated... critical thinkers, problem solvers etc. They is just no accountability when people can freely hide behind their monitor and keyboard.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei So, there has been a large amount of talk about the gaming community being toxic. It is fine and well to dwell in the negative, but how can we fix it? We are all smart people here, so lets put our brains together and maybe we can accomplish something. What do you think we can do? Example 1: I know as a female gamer I have seen several "support" groups/communities for female gamers open up over the years. They emphasize girl gamers being normal players and deserve the same respect of any male gamer. Do you think a anti-being-an-a-hat community would work to fix our problem? Example 2: League of legends has started banning pro gamers that are toxic to show that they will not take it and that it is not ok on any level of skill. They have also implemented the honor system to try and make people think about the positive and not only the negative (reporting). I personally think it has worked wonders on the community and given it a fighting chance at maybe recovering from its a-hat infection. We get blamed for alot of violence and problems. Maybe it is true since our community is so mean, racist, sexist, and generally evil (except for a few) If we were to try to activally pursue change and growth of our community out of being 4-6 year olds into being 21/25+ people maybe we could lose a bit of the media heat that we get. So, think. Think hard and lets come together and figure out how we can make a better community! tl;dr How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
You can not fix gaming communities. Once they have become known for how they are or how they act, they pretty much have buried themselves. I won't post any that have, but we all know which have.
Honestly, your age bracket are still "kids" in my eyes. Most are just out for fun and barely know what "responsibility is or how to properly act. (I speak for those in the games I have played, not everyone).
If a community wants to be liked, act like a human. Don't continue with the Chuck Norris jokes, or be-little people because you think you are so great (which in most cases you are not). The Communites that thrive act like "adults" wether or not you are one. Kid things can go right back to that one game they deserve to be in (another one I do not need to name).
Originally posted by Wighty Trying to segregate people into different play groups seems like a good idea... However when was the last time you were on an RP game server... Global chat is still nothing more than a glorified 4chan chatroom... The developers have no interest in enforcing this...
They don't enforce it because they don't even design for it. That's the problem. They've gone the complete opposite direction. The ability for players to break up into smaller groups of like-minded or similar interest groups is absent in most MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by jimdandy26 That is a piss poor argument honestly. Not much different from the ones that people were using to get DnD banned in the 80's because some kids decided to larp with real weapons and got hurt, or the ones that went "real metal" and started worshiping Satan and the like using it as a surrogate. Aren't you trolling just a bit by calling my agrument "piss poor"? Honestly, your analogy doesn't make any sense. I'm talking about a serious security loophole and potential for real life harassment with that could lead to severe problems and the solution of real ID being worse off for a game. Your analogy equivalency would only work if I said something along the lines of "you can only fix the game community by getting rid of the game itself". You missed what I am saying. You cannot do this on a single game, or even company, level and expect it to succeed. Especially when the system that has been put in place by Blizzard is nowhere near as enforced as it should be. The internet in general needs an effective set of laws put in place to curtail the pure anarchy that currently exists. The human race in general does not have the collective maturity to deal with real freedom. Personal accountability is the only answer that has been found throughout our entire history to combat the problem that currently exists. No, I didn't miss what you are saying. I simply straight up don't agree with it. How exactly does adding a Real Name ID add personal accountability? It just removes anonymity. This doesn't make you personally accountable, someone can still harass someone regardless of them knowing your name in real life (or any other personal information) if anything it opens you up to further harassment. Again, the likelihood of meeting the person you are harassing is very close to nil so where is the personal accountability exactly? I also completely disagree with your statement that personal accountability is the only answer throughout history, I think a lot of times we fingerpoint and want to place blame on people especially when tragedies happen and we look for someone or something to hold accountable and that often causes a lot of problems. Sure sometimes personal accountability is great, but again I don't really think this is going to hold anyone personally accountable. We see the system in place in Blizzard games. It clearly isn't working. Personally they lost a customer (me) when they added that system because I'm sick of Blizzard's lack of security and feeding hackers more of my information makes me more suspectible to getting robbed by them. I haven't heard anyone in favor of the Real ID system till now in fact, and most of the people I know that talked about it seemed against it. I suppose if companies wanted to go that route they could, but when that happens I'm personally not going to be playing games that use it. I don't troll/grief/harass EVER in video games and just log on and want to have fun and I hate systems like this.
Responses above in yellow
Edit: Let me add quickly that there are much better ways to hold people accountable for their actions that can fit into the game mechanics. I still think that encouraging proper socialization and rewarding good behavior is better than focusing on punishing bad behavior, but there are plenty of ways to punish bad behavior that can fit into the game design. For example if you have a game with open PvP you can add a bounty system that let's you personally hold people accountable when they grief you by putting a bounty on your head. Strong moderation in game holds people accountable. A tribunal system, while it has the potential for abuse and I don't think it's a good solution (again I believe reward > punishment), can hold people accountable. Prevention is also good too, making it more difficult to grief in a game (again GW2 does a fair job of this, certainly not flawless) promotes good community, though obviously that's much harder to do, especially in games with heavy PvP emphasis.
Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
Originally posted by Wighty Using real information is the only way... I mean all your information is already out there, on Facebook, twitter, linkedin. and whatever else social media there is... why should this be any different unless you are the one that is trying to hide?
No not everyone uses real ID networking in the world and no it isn't barbaric to not use it.
Privacy is very important. So is the ability to question and criticize all forms of authority - the inability to do so is unhealthy.
Originally posted by Wighty Man i want what this guy is smoking...
Computer Science senior graduating in May here. I'm high on science, mathematics, and software engineering.
Originally posted by Wighty There is a VERY simple solution to this however people will never agree to it... You need to take the Anonymity out of it. People would have to use ther real names (that they used for the credit card to be used in game. This creates accountability... You are now personally and directly responsible for your own actions and this will create a natural civility. Now I don't mean you characters name is your real name but every character would have a searchable profile with the users REAL name in it. Too many people hide behind the wall of anonymity and use this shroud as a means to be sociopathic and wreckless to anyone around them... You wouldn't walk down the street calling people assholes and curse out their mothers because you would probably end up with a broken jaw or worse. I would almost guarantee that gaming communities would magically become a much better place overnight if something like this was put in and enforced.
Not going to happen. There are way to many down sides, that impact the real world. Especially when you consider the uses various authoritarian governments would have for such a system.
Originally posted by Wighty This creates accountability... You are now personally and directly responsible for your own actions and this will create a natural civility.
"Natural civility"? Are you sure you don't mean "climate of fear and intimidation"?
edit: *mumbles at myself about whether being analytic and nitpicky is really the most positive contribution I can make in this thread*
For what it's worth, Gandhi said:
I think it applies to communities of all sorts: here in this forum, in our games, and in the world at large.
Originally posted by steelheartx Originally posted by LadyEuphei How do you think we can fix the gaming community?
Yes it is. Pity that some people actually enjoy ruining other peoples play experience. But then Goonies will be with us always. But one should not allow such types to change our enjoyment of the various games, or allow the fear and anger of others to dictate how we may interact.
Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by Wighty This creates accountability... You are now personally and directly responsible for your own actions and this will create a natural civility.
That is exactly what he means.
People asking for RL information is looking for retaliation of some form. Harrassment, violence, and/or vandalizing property. I live in a Stand Your Ground State, so not much worried about the last two things happening, and I don't think I can hear drum circles out front of my property. But, it's the other people that are more at risk from some do-gooder causing harm. Funny how naughty words constitutes violence from the tolerant.
There is no other goal here so don't let them tell you otherwise. It isn't against the law to be a jerk, or make hateful comments. And no, saying naughty things anonymously in general chat to anonymous others doesn't fall under the Arizona Cyberbullying Act.
Nope, if they want to pay $15 a month to be a nanny, watching general chat and reporting everyone that doesn't go along with their political/social views, they can do it in game. They can spend their game time talking to GMs and sending chat logs and screenshots.
Or they can turn on their profanity filter, if they are that sensitive to everything around them.
Or they can use ignore.
Or they can stop going where they are not wanted and play with different people that are like-minded.
I've never personally known any paying customer banned for name calling or dirty jokes or harrassment. Usually a GM talks to you and that person moves on. They move on knowing that if they contact the "complainer", they WILL get in trouble. Sorry if I stole your satisfaction nannies.
Games have all these systems in place. Use them.
And if you don't like someone in your guild for their behavior, politics, and /or stance on social issues, kick them out.
And if you don't want a nanny in a guild causing problems, kick them out and go back to screwing off with others in peace.
Problem solved for everyone.
Playing: 3D chess while while others play checkers.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Originally posted by eyelolled Make more sandbox games. Eliminate hostile player interactions. Eliminate chat.
Some but not all of this sites problems would go away if there were a greater diversity in gaming options. Namely more games like EVE, there are plenty of options when it comes to games like WOW. A few well made games that focus on player interaction/community as well as conflict like EVE, would go a long way toward appeasing many of the individuals posting here IMO. Not trying to speak for people, only offering an observation.
Well yes, I understand that. The point is that we have heard the negative. I am looking for a solution.
Spend less time looking, and more time nurturing the OBVIOUS positive aspects of humanity.
and if you already do this? what is the point of this thread?
please don't tell me that you're actually stumped on this and looking for answers. there is nothing you can do other than treat people decent and hope that they do the same.
if you can't handle the negativity, then maybe playing online games with anyone but your freinds is not a good idea for you. and i say that with sincerity. when i get tired of the way it is online, i take a break.
but as far as the game companies themselves; i agree with the LoL system. it was not as moderated when i started playing LoL, then i quit for months, and came back to a much nicer game. granted, i prefer the 3v3 map, which has a more chill air to it. but still, it is nice that they are trying.
i started playing SMITE, and it could really use such moderation. I hope after the game is launched (and they have a heavier playerbase) that they moderate similar to how LoL is doing now.
Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'.
IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards.
The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc.
I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.
Originally posted by Alberel Games that required player interaction and group play to progress effectively enforce a positive community as undesirables find themselves unable to get anywhere in the game. FFXI was one such game. The early days of EQ2 were the same. When a game fundamentally requires players to get along in order to get anything done either everyone behaves in the interests of progress or all the trolls simply leave because they can't have their 'fun'. IMO the main reason the MMO community has become such a mess as of late is due to the fact that no one really needs the other players in the game. Systems like the dungeon finder seen in a few games facilitate the perception of other players as simply tools to get something done, and discarded afterwards. The way to cure the community is to give players a reason to need others. The first step would be to eliminate the solo-only mentality and make group play ultimately more rewarding and desirable (and no systems to find groups automatically). As long as everyone can just solo to do everything they have no need for positive relations with other players and thus don't care who they annoy/upset/troll/harass/etc. I know the soloers are going to hate me but it's the truth. Group-centric MMOs generally have much more positive communities.
Call me cynical, but frankly that sounds more like it would perpetuate a "I'll be nice to this guy only because he gives benefits. I still don't give a shit about him because he is my ticket to loot" mentality.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by eyelolled Make more sandbox games. Eliminate hostile player interactions. Eliminate chat.
Please don't bring EVE into this. EVE's community is one of the most hostile, intolerant ones I've ever been a part of. Oh sure, they're all nice and sweet as long as you 'toe the line' when it comes to political / religious views. However, should you even hint that you believe something contrary to those views, you will be ostracized immediately. Not just that, but station camped, threatened with death, etc. In fact, I was forced to reroll because I let it slip in general chat (very amicably, and just in casual conversation with people whom I thought I knew) that I held a differing opinion.
Sad thing is, I'd formed gangs with some of these people. When I was new, they gave me money and helped me out. Yet they turned on me the second I voiced a differing opinion, without any hope of reconciliation.
Granted it's not the same as sexism / racism because I choose my own beliefs, but I sure as hell shouldn't be getting death threats because of them (unless I were a Klansman or something, although even then it's extreme).
The most damnable thing of all is that I filed tickets with CCP, and presented them with the EVEmails I got threatening my life. What did I get in return? "Oh, use the ignore function"
Yeah. Thanks a fucking lot, CCP.
I thought we were talking about the mmorpg community, not the mmorpg.com community. If it was just to clean up this community I would say give the mods the ability to think and act not just based upon guidelines, but with common sense as well. Ban people just for being negative asshats. Screw the "I've got a right to speak my opinion" ideal, and bring in the "you've proven that you have something valuable to say, so you deserve to be heard" ideal.
As for the mmorpg community
I really could care less about sandbox games, it was more the perspective of removing any sort of conflict. Competition is great in a controlled environment, but it an uncontrolled environment like the internet, it tends to be pretty sloppy. Lets face it, if some griefers computer caught fire, the people he's griefed would probably smile just a bit. I'm not saying that they would want him to die in a fire, but they would feel better to know he got what was coming to him. I'm also sure that is exactly what he wants as well. To be hated. He thrives on the frustration of others and then hides behind the cloak of "it's just a game, relax"
If we continue to let this sort of behavior happen, then it's obvious whats going to happen, and that's some emotionally challenged individual is going to snap and do something stupid. And afterwards, people will be talking about how it's not videogames fault, after all, he was mentally unstable. But the problem isn't the video game, it's people. And if people don't have conflict and competition, they are alot more agreeable.