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[Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect

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  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
     

    Have to ask, but is it "U"?  Am I right in that being what you meant?  Just curious hehe.

    Yup, you got it ;D

    lol I actually just now noticed your avatar once you replied.  I came into the thread again after I saw your username had made the last post.

    Anyways, that's pretty sweet :)

     

    Moral of the thread - Sexism Bad!  Creativity Good!

    El Psy Congroo

  • NC-JohnNC-John burlington, WIPosts: 113Member

    Treat them with respect bros. they don't want special treatment they have always wanted to be seen as an equals, which they are in everyway and many of them may even be better at gaming then guys. we need to change our thinking about female gamers, and we need to understand they just want play like us and have fun gaming and being competitive.

    The problems come when young men who have always competed for a females attention start an all out "show us your picture or it's a lie" in ventrilio war. these guys you have to avoid and NOT show them your picture. I have seen female gamers leave guilds once the guys knew they were female. it's sad but at some point if you progress in a guild you are going to have to get on voice chat and the truth comes out.

    which really should not make a difference in how they as a guild member should be viewed/traeted. if you nerds ever want to see on a dating site.."loves to PVP and loves online gaming' in a females profile stop making them have to regret being honest in an online game.

    My girlfriend is a gamer she can talk with me about almost any subject on gaming. she runs a guild, she is pure awesome at raiding. but she had to go through allot of crap to be the best and earn respect as a gamer from the guys in the guild, which if it was another dude, she wouldn't have had to do if she was male.

    Respect them, stop trying to date them or get pictures, it's just sad to watch my fellow males devolve back to our knucle dragger status.

     

    "Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor

  • LordZeikLordZeik mushu pork, NJPosts: 269Member Uncommon
    I don't know whats worse. Trying to turn mmorpg.com into a platform for the lifetime network. Or attempting to find respect on the internet....Seriously, you don't find people writing articles on a girl showing off her body for the price of gear or equipment.... It doesn't mean all of them do it. But, based on the standards we're judging people off of several incidents. Should I be inclined to believe that they all do? Women get better treatment than men in mmorpgs. (if the community isn't volatile, i .e not talking about xbox live shenanigans.) Whats the topic going to be next week? How the gay/lesbian rights movement in pc games isn't making enough progress?
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by LordZeik
    I don't know whats worse. Trying to turn mmorpg.com into a platform for the lifetime network. Or attempting to find respect on the internet....Seriously, you don't find people writing articles on a girl showing off her body for the price of gear or equipment.... It doesn't mean all of them do it. But, based on the standards we're judging people off of several incidents. Should I be inclined to believe that they all do? Women get better treatment than men in mmorpgs. (if the community isn't volatile, i .e not talking about xbox live shenanigans.) Whats the topic going to be next week? How the gay/lesbian rights movement in pc games isn't making enough progress?

    I think that was last weeks topic, maybe the week before. Check the SWTOR MakeB threads. 

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member

    Grats Lisa on a post that showed us how we are not only as gamers but as humans. Unfortently this thread will not stop the stupidity of pre teen males or agressive females who decide to come back two fold. All It will do is maybe make someone think hey that was kind of douche of me to act that way. I doubt it but maybe. When I ran pvp raids in BG or when I did not run them I played Allie rogue and got tired of losing every single freakin round because allie cant pvp worth squat. I used the word "RAPE" in a pvp contex such a sentence will include but not limited to " Listen up you NOOBS we need to stop playing like pussies and play like men. We need to rape those hordies and show them we do not bow down to them." Yes I can see that even though I was not directing my words to be hurtful what I did not know is maybe I indrectly hurt a female gamer in that bg at that time.

    So for this Lisa TY for a little better view point on a subject we all need to think about and maybe just maybe they might be one less douche in our gaming world.

    image

  • steamtanksteamtank Rochester, NYPosts: 385Member

    when you play a game where one of the primary concepts is mass murder (of npc's and pc's) you are playing a competitive game.

     

    what many people who say we need to treat women like equals on games are failing to realize is that... in fact....... we are treating them like equals.

     

    Many Women are not used to getting screamed at in a competitve environment.  Many women are not used to the other gender treating them like equals instead of "special"

     

    As a man, when i compete with another man in anything I want to win. The vicious desire to win at all costs is part of being competitve. Usually it is associated as an "alpha" quality. In the real world this is your MMA, Boxers, Football Players, etc.  In games.... games are a different set of skills. Mental adapaption, hand-eye reflexes but no less "alpha" than the real world.

    Enter women

    You are now on a fair playing field. You get no special treatment. If I call a dude a bunch of names and it causes him to act rashly and my team wins.... I WON

    So as a girl, if you get called a bunch of names and then freak out and my side wins.... I WON

     

    Rape is not a male on female only crime. Otherwise prison wouldnt seem quite as bad as it is to males.  So even if you take the word "rape" out of the english language, another equally vicious word will rise to take its place. "Fuck those assholes, group up, we are going to rape them"  The Vikings said it, The WW2 vets said it, todays gamers say it.

     

    In a video game the desire to win, to be competitive, and to destroy all foes is free to reign. No one dies for real, no one can get physically harmed. It's a free place to exercise base male nature. If you as a woman cannot cope with men being men... play with women, play games that "alpha"-ness doesnt reign, play with groups that support "polite play".

     

    Welcome to the even playing field.  I hope you have fun, and learn to dish as much as you get.

  • DignaDigna City, CTPosts: 2,014Member Uncommon

    The article has sparked quite the response even if it was slightly too much the 'I am angry' and not enough 'and this is what we can do about the issue'.

    I don't tolerate sexism (blatant at least) around me when I am in game. I've asked people to back down usually inciting the yabos to attack me...which is fine. Dullards are dullards.

    What is boils down to is that women usually get the lion's  share of the short end of the stick (no euphemism there) but there are still a pretty sizable percentage of women who do unto others etc.

    We need to fix the world. Parts of it are broken. They aren't going to get better no matter how long we rage around about issues. Pick a soapbox, stand on it and then work on your issue of choice in a clear, 'professional' manner and maybe something good...even a small bit...over time.

    If we were all (collectively all..not that each and every one needs to) be 10% 'nicer' on the Internet and IRL 20% of the disagreements, disputes, rage rage etc out there would go away.

     

  • DignaDigna City, CTPosts: 2,014Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Digna

    The article has sparked quite the response even if it was slightly too much the 'I am angry' and not enough 'and this is what we can do about the issue'.

    I don't tolerate sexism (blatant at least) around me when I am in game. I've asked people to back down usually inciting the yabos to attack me...which is fine. Dullards are dullards.

    What is boils down to is that women usually get the lion's  share of the short end of the stick (no euphemism there) but there are still a pretty sizable percentage of women who do unto others etc.

    We need to fix the world. Parts of it are broken. They aren't going to get better no matter how long we rage around about issues. Pick a soapbox, stand on it and then work on your issue of choice in a clear, 'professional' manner and maybe something good...even a small bit...over time.

    If we were all (collectively all..not that each and every one) to be 10% 'nicer' on the Internet and IRL 20% of the disagreements, disputes, rage rage etc out there would go away.

     

     

     

  • BroomyBroomy New York, NYPosts: 483Member

    As a female gamer, my only advice for women geeks like the OP is to stop trying to "Overanalyze" illogical, brutish behaviour on the part of some male geeks and their female cohorts.  Its a total waste of time.  The article is a total waste of time, and I dont mean that in a disparging way.  What I am saying is this:  you can't change the behaviours of brutes that hate women and use the online gaming industry ( that is supposed to be entertainment) as a vehicle to spew that hate.  Here is what you can do that will be far more effective:  Make it uneconomical for gaming companies/websites/etc. to allow this type of sexist, brutish behaviour to exist.  Boycott, petition, make a rukus in general, so that the business side has to take notice.  Patronage games/websites that do have recourse for females that become subject to that kind of treatment, that ban offenders and make it clear that kind of BS wont be tolerated.  This action is the ONLY action that will get things to change.  If there were no cops or laws, people would run around doing whatever they want.  Instead of wishing people to be good, decent citizens, make it painful for them to be anything but.

    My 2 cents on the whole affair.  For myself I will vet a guild first in regards to their guild chat and culture before joining, I deleted rude sexists comments from my past blogs and notified forum admins when I saw this type of behaviour.  My gaming life has been a happy one since I have. 

    Current Games: SWTOR, EVE Online

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,236Member Uncommon

    I don't think it's bad to hear different perspectives, and so I don't mind Lisa Jonte's article for what it is: the real life gender issues that come as a resut of revealing one's real life gender.

    But all this does is make me ask another question: when did we decide, as players, that the gender of the player is important information to know?

    Because if we are truly playing in the spirit of good roleplay, the gender of the player shouldn't matter.  It is the gender of the character that should matter.  If a character looks like a woman, acts like a woman, and responds like a woman, shouldn't she be treated as a woman--in both the good and the bad?  Likewise, if a character looks like a man, acts like a man, and responds like a man, shouldn't he be treated as a man--in both the good and the bad?

    Now I can read about what it is like to be a woman.  I can hear what it is like to be a woman.  But I have learned more about what it is like to be a woman by playing one than I ever have by merely reading about it.

    And this is what I've learned: playing as a woman is an exercise in interpersonal stress that I wouldn't wish upon any man.  If you think it's all about getting "free stuff," you'd be wrong, because the free stuff is never free.  It comes complete with a lifetime of tell hells, guilt trips, misunderstandings, gossip and accusations.  The extra attention is almost always bad attention.  Your time is almost never your own, if the males who find you interesting have anything to say about it.  You are allowed to say "no" at your own peril.  And you are almost never believed.  When you say, "I can't raid right now" to a guy who sends you a tell, he takes it as a personal insult.  And whatever you do in the game isn't ever good enough.  They will push for you to get on Teamspeak, push to get you on the phone, push to see you in person, and push to see your Facebook profile.  Saying "no" to any of these things is interpreted as grounds for making your time miserable.

    In fact, I don't know how girls can even play these games sometimes.  But I will say this.  I've learned more about why girls say and do the things they do in real life by actually playing one.  And I've also learned more about how women think by actually playing one.

    We have such a tremendous opportunity to learn about gender here, if we so choose.  But we, for the most part, choose not to do it.  Instead, we'd rather know if the female characters are played by real females, and the male characters played by real males.  And all that does is rob us of the ability to step inside the shoes of someone else.  But this isn't just in terms of playing the opposite gender.  It's even robbing women of the ability to explore their own gender, but in a different way.

    Perhaps a woman is rather reserved, but wants the chance to live as a flirt.  MMORPGs should be able to give her the chance to do this.  But she'll never be able to do this, given the way males are always pushing women to take things outside the game.  It's way too easy for a guy, dead set on a female player, to interpret a simple /wink between characters as a /wink between players.  But that's what happens when players, especially males, do not distinguish between the actions of a character and the actions of the player.

    Sadly, it seems that neither Lisa Jonte, nor we who criticize her, truly want to separate the character from the player.  She is making the same mistake as the males she criticizes: elevating player gender to a level of importance that it really shouldn't have.  She wants to be understood as the woman she is, but aren't we cheating the promise of these games when we do that?

    For these games, unlike life, allow us to be whoever we want.  Shouldn't the woman the man plays have just as much right to be a woman as the woman the woman plays?

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • FuchsiaFuchsia Pennsylvania, PAPosts: 8Member

    I feel like some people are way out in left field and are almost trying to "logically" justify why harassing behavior is okay.  And its not okay, regardless of gender.

     

    Harassment is something that happens to both genders, but I feel like its something that is more common or intense when directed towards women.  And the harassment isn't just something you can brush off because it can effect your game and of course your happiness.

     

    I was recently a member of a guild who had an officer that commented about my "sexy voice" on Vent.  I didn't really know how to react so I just said "thanks" and figured that would be the end of it.  But it wasn't.  The members teasted ME because of it when it wasn't even a comment I made, and eventually went as far as to not invite me to guild events unless I would do certain things.  Basically they wouldn't allow me to play with them unless I say a bunch of sexual comments in Ventrillo with my "sexy voice".   I had to leave the guild.

     

    One really disappointing event was a recent AV in WoW (a 40v40 battle) where I mistakenly typed "rape jokes are not funny" after someone made a bunch of them.  Well, it built up to like 10-20 different people all talking about how they were going to beat me, f*ck every hole, kill me, etc.  There was a whole group of people doing this to me for like 10 minutes.  One person even warned me to be scared IRL.  I felt sick to stomach and I was embarassed, disgusted, and even a little scared.  I had to quit the game.

     

    Just last night I had one of my addons reset so I had to redo my keybindings.  I told my group about it, and said I needed a minute.  Well, that set off one person who started saying things like "i will fuck ur dumb c*nt u b*tch" and then he went on to say that women should not be allowed to play video games, and yada yada.

     

    I even had one creepo who would log into random alts to send me tells about how I am a whore, a slut, worthless, a homewrecker, etc.  This isn't anyone I knew in RL so its not like I could have been any of those things to him.

     

    I dated someone for 4 years who often played with me.  While I had many cases of things like the examples above, he never even had one issue ever during the 4 years.  Not even one!  So yes, I think women are targeted a little more than men, and have additional things to worry about.

     

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Broomy

    As a female gamer, my only advice for women geeks like the OP is to stop trying to "Overanalyze" illogical, brutish behaviour on the part of some male geeks and their female cohorts.  Its a total waste of time.  The article is a total waste of time, and I dont mean that in a disparging way.  What I am saying is this:  you can't change the behaviours of brutes that hate women and use the online gaming industry ( that is supposed to be entertainment) as a vehicle to spew that hate.  Here is what you can do that will be far more effective:  Make it uneconomical for gaming companies/websites/etc. to allow this type of sexist, brutish behaviour to exist.  Boycott, petition, make a rukus in general, so that the business side has to take notice.  Patronage games/websites that do have recourse for females that become subject to that kind of treatment, that ban offenders and make it clear that kind of BS wont be tolerated.  This action is the ONLY action that will get things to change.  If there were no cops or laws, people would run around doing whatever they want.  Instead of wishing people to be good, decent citizens, make it painful for them to be anything but.

    My 2 cents on the whole affair.  For myself I will vet a guild first in regards to their guild chat and culture before joining, I deleted rude sexists comments from my past blogs and notified forum admins when I saw this type of behaviour.  My gaming life has been a happy one since I have. 

     

    So, who gets to define what "illogical, brutish" behavior is?  Who draws that line?  Is it consistent, or does it vary by individual?

    For too long, women have staked sole rights to defining all behavior, including male behavior.  Personally, I'd rather not be defined by any kind of an "-ist", especially man-hating ones.

    And before taking umbrage at the use of that term, the dismissive term "woman-hater" is all too often thrown about, to denounce and discredit anyone with the un-PC audacity to disagree, or who fails to bow down and worship every tenet of feminism.  The author used the term in the article without really proving it.  Of course, proof isn't really necessary to make an accusation, as long as it's for the good of The Cause.

    To me, what's always been at issue here is power.  In the gaming world, as in others, women don't just want to be a part of a community.  They want to be a part, AND they want to dictate the rules.  They demand that everyone must change to accommodate them, and refuse to change themselves.  That's not equality.

    Interestingly enough, they expect society to come rushing to their aid to assist them in making the world the way they want it, including the online world.  Fortunately, actual societal norms will likely be decided by large groups of rational people, instead of a collection of rabid "-ists".  At least, I hope so.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kwintpod
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by Broomy

    As a female gamer, my only advice for women geeks like the OP is to stop trying to "Overanalyze" illogical, brutish behaviour on the part of some male geeks and their female cohorts.  Its a total waste of time.  The article is a total waste of time, and I dont mean that in a disparging way.  What I am saying is this:  you can't change the behaviours of brutes that hate women and use the online gaming industry ( that is supposed to be entertainment) as a vehicle to spew that hate.  Here is what you can do that will be far more effective:  Make it uneconomical for gaming companies/websites/etc. to allow this type of sexist, brutish behaviour to exist.  Boycott, petition, make a rukus in general, so that the business side has to take notice.  Patronage games/websites that do have recourse for females that become subject to that kind of treatment, that ban offenders and make it clear that kind of BS wont be tolerated.  This action is the ONLY action that will get things to change.  If there were no cops or laws, people would run around doing whatever they want.  Instead of wishing people to be good, decent citizens, make it painful for them to be anything but.

    My 2 cents on the whole affair.  For myself I will vet a guild first in regards to their guild chat and culture before joining, I deleted rude sexists comments from my past blogs and notified forum admins when I saw this type of behaviour.  My gaming life has been a happy one since I have. 

     

     

    For too long, women have staked sole rights to defining all behavior, including male behavior.

     

    Hahahaahaha

    You aren't serious, are you?

     

    As far as the occupation of the moral high ground in impugning the behaviors of others, especially given the recent climate of political correctness, I'm absolutely serious.  It's actually founded in traditional Western social beliefs.

    Read the article again.  Who's telling who how to act?  Now, reverse it - imagine a man lambasting women's actions and telling them how to act, enlisting society to aid in the change, all based on quaint notions of "civility", and what would the outcome be?  The cries of patriarchal behavior would be deafening.

    Think about it another way:  Would it be morally acceptable to restrict women's behavior or speech because it might be offensive to men?

    It would be nice if we could all treat each other with respect and dignity.  That would be easier to do if each side approached the other with respect, instead of one side perpetually and ham-handedly demonizing the other.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • Jerek_Jerek_ tulsa, OKPosts: 409Member
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade

    Although I don't support the format (whiny, pointless blog) that the author used, I keep seeing people say "I've never seen it" and "It's only women who point out their gender" and such things. So for those who don't grasp why women have an issue with how they're treated in gaming culture, here's a few pictures that should help explain things.

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/god_that_kills.png

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/rapetonight.jpg

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/ThePeen.jpg

    And then there is this one, in which the person is a male playing a female character:

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Dedterrorist.jpg

     

    It's not being picked on that's the problem. It's not even the overcompetitve nature and subsequent bashing (especially in consoles) that's the problem. Have a problem with me? Think I suck at whatever I'm doing? Fine. Call me fat, ugly, stupid, say I live in my parents basement, accuse me of being a virgin. That doesn't even come close to bothering me because I've seen guys say it to guys, even to their friends. I've also seen guys accuse each other of fornicating with farm animals, dead bodies, children, and 2 liter soda bottles, and while seriously disturbed, I'm still not offended!

     

    But don't threaten to rape me (1 in 5 women will be raped so that stuff isn't funny), don't threaten to stalk me, don't pick on your friends when they lose to a girl (believe it or not that isn't a freaking compliment to us), don't complain about female raid leaders who take it seriously (we're bitches when we do that, but a guy, well he's just getting it done the right way), don't talk about my vagina - whether I have one or not is not your freaking business, don't ask to see my tits, don't whisper me for nudes, and realize that even if YOU aren't doing any of this, someone else is. I know this because I've had every single one of those things happen to me personally.

     

    I don't sit an whine about how piss poorly I've been treated in games because I'm a female. I don't hide my gender, but I don't carry it like a chip on my shoulder either. I don't carry a grudge against men, or anyone, over that stuff. Instead of getting angry, I just get even. I know how to screen capture, archive messages, save emails, and use the 'red-flag' words that make even that crappy GM who doesn't care take notice. Send messages like the links to me, I will do everything I can to get you banned.

     

    You can sit there and say 'Sexism isn't the problem', but when men are threatening to rape women, cut up their vaginas, or rape then with knives so they can't reproduce, it is misogyny. I totally agree that the entire abusive nature of competitve gaming culture needs to be examined and fixed, but it is rife with sexism as well. I don't tell men to go build me a house or fix my car and I don't appreciate being told I belong in a kitchen making sandwiches.

    Part of the difference is that if a female gamer told me to go fix her car i'd laugh my ass off- sterotypes exist for a reason i guess because my friends (male and female) cars do end up in my garage, and i do end up helping with house repairs.

    You seem to understand the serious flaws in the gaming communities in some ways but not at all in others- you cant say I'm fine with a,b, and c but dont dare say x.  X is what they were looking for the whole time and you handed it to them, it doesn't matter what X is, just that it will really offend. 

    I think some of this reflects the change over time with how people see the internet, especially since the rise of social networking.  When I started playing MMO's in 1997, there was no way in hell I would tell another player anything about myself.  It was a mark of how close knit my guild was that after years of UO and shadowbane many of them knew my first name, could recognize my voice and a very few even knew what I looked like.  It was normal to be this private because it was a known fact that the internet can be brutal and you don't give anyone things to use against you. 

    So when people like me see users like kaylettaJade or techknowmoma (just using you two as an example so no offense I hope) willing to put what i assume are your actual pictures as avatars up at a site like mmorpg, its a red flag that immediately makes me think you are willing to make yourselves targets for abuse.  Not because your women, but because it makes me think you put yourselves out there to be targets in a way I never would.

     

  • KaylettaJadeKaylettaJade Holloman AFB, NMPosts: 144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jerek_
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade

    Although I don't support the format (whiny, pointless blog) that the author used, I keep seeing people say "I've never seen it" and "It's only women who point out their gender" and such things. So for those who don't grasp why women have an issue with how they're treated in gaming culture, here's a few pictures that should help explain things.

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/god_that_kills.png

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/rapetonight.jpg

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/ThePeen.jpg

    And then there is this one, in which the person is a male playing a female character:

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Dedterrorist.jpg

     

    It's not being picked on that's the problem. It's not even the overcompetitve nature and subsequent bashing (especially in consoles) that's the problem. Have a problem with me? Think I suck at whatever I'm doing? Fine. Call me fat, ugly, stupid, say I live in my parents basement, accuse me of being a virgin. That doesn't even come close to bothering me because I've seen guys say it to guys, even to their friends. I've also seen guys accuse each other of fornicating with farm animals, dead bodies, children, and 2 liter soda bottles, and while seriously disturbed, I'm still not offended!

     

    But don't threaten to rape me (1 in 5 women will be raped so that stuff isn't funny), don't threaten to stalk me, don't pick on your friends when they lose to a girl (believe it or not that isn't a freaking compliment to us), don't complain about female raid leaders who take it seriously (we're bitches when we do that, but a guy, well he's just getting it done the right way), don't talk about my vagina - whether I have one or not is not your freaking business, don't ask to see my tits, don't whisper me for nudes, and realize that even if YOU aren't doing any of this, someone else is. I know this because I've had every single one of those things happen to me personally.

     

    I don't sit an whine about how piss poorly I've been treated in games because I'm a female. I don't hide my gender, but I don't carry it like a chip on my shoulder either. I don't carry a grudge against men, or anyone, over that stuff. Instead of getting angry, I just get even. I know how to screen capture, archive messages, save emails, and use the 'red-flag' words that make even that crappy GM who doesn't care take notice. Send messages like the links to me, I will do everything I can to get you banned.

     

    You can sit there and say 'Sexism isn't the problem', but when men are threatening to rape women, cut up their vaginas, or rape then with knives so they can't reproduce, it is misogyny. I totally agree that the entire abusive nature of competitve gaming culture needs to be examined and fixed, but it is rife with sexism as well. I don't tell men to go build me a house or fix my car and I don't appreciate being told I belong in a kitchen making sandwiches.

    Part of the difference is that if a female gamer told me to go fix her car i'd laugh my ass off- sterotypes exist for a reason i guess because my friends (male and female) cars do end up in my garage, and i do end up helping with house repairs.

    You seem to understand the serious flaws in the gaming communities in some ways but not at all in others- you cant say I'm fine with a,b, and c but dont dare say x.  X is what they were looking for the whole time and you handed it to them, it doesn't matter what X is, just that it will really offend. 

    I think some of this reflects the change over time with how people see the internet, especially since the rise of social networking.  When I started playing MMO's in 1997, there was no way in hell I would tell another player anything about myself.  It was a mark of how close knit my guild was that after years of UO and shadowbane many of them knew my first name, could recognize my voice and a very few even knew what I looked like.  It was normal to be this private because it was a known fact that the internet can be brutal and you don't give anyone things to use against you. 

    So when people like me see users like kaylettaJade or techknowmoma (just using you two as an example so no offense I hope) willing to put what i assume are your actual pictures as avatars up at a site like mmorpg, its a red flag that immediately makes me think you are willing to make yourselves targets for abuse.  Not because your women, but because it makes me think you put yourselves out there to be targets in a way I never would.

     

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

    Your last paragraph shows whats wrong with gaming culture and the internet in general. My avatar is my face. I don't feel the need to hide who I am, and neither should anyone else. Saying that using my face is me willingly making myself a target for abuse is entirely wrong. No one simply owning up to who they are should ever make them a target for abuse. Regardless of race, creed, religion, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, etc. And it will never change if people don't stand up, refuse to hide, and educate the community.

     

  • Jerek_Jerek_ tulsa, OKPosts: 409Member
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade
    Originally posted by Jerek_
     

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

    Your last paragraph shows whats wrong with gaming culture and the internet in general. My avatar is my face. I don't feel the need to hide who I am, and neither should anyone else. Saying that using my face is me willingly making myself a target for abuse is entirely wrong. No one simply owning up to who they are should ever make them a target for abuse. Regardless of race, creed, religion, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, etc. And it will never change if people don't stand up, refuse to hide, and educate the community.

     

    the thing is, I did feel the need to hide who am I on the way in, or at least be very guarded.  I choose to walk into a lions den.  I did it armored against the bites and ready.  If anyone else wants to do the same great and welcome.  But if you come in naked yelling that your a bloody steak don't be suprised if it hurts.

    I agree with every point you make by the way.  I just know that as long as the internet is anonymous and free some people will be willing and able to be the asshats they really are.

    edit- what I was trying to point out is that there is NO difference between th normal abusive nonsense and the mysoginistic.  They wanted to offend you the first time, they just failed.  Then thy found something that works.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade

     

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

     

    That's the thing - men actually ARE enculturated to "take it", and have been in Western culture for centuries.  Men's genitals are also routinely ridiculed and/or threatened for a variety of reasons, by both women and other men.  It's easy to miss if it doesn't pertain to you, as it isn't a flag you're sensitive to.

    I can't count the number of times I've heard a woman flippantly say she would cut off the penis or testicles of a boyfriend/husband, or kick a male in the groin, usually in a semi-joking manner, for any number of potential transgressions.  Violence against a man's genitals is viewed differently by society, and is often the butt of jokes.  If you don't believe me, read this article and watch the embedded video to hear the howling laughter of women about a case of genital mutilation.  It's quite "fabulous".

    I agree, no one should be treated badly, but when dealing with gender issues, it's never as simple as one or the other side likes to frame it.  Sexism and emotional manipulation are not limited to one gender.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member

    Woooo, I read the article, but I lack the 10 days to read the comments. This is super controversial it seems. I think in general the gaming community is dirt and that there is a small populace of about 20% that are decent people. Just goes to show you that there are alot of pathetic, broken, just plain ignorant people on earth.

    As girl gamers the only thing we can do is expect it. I would like it to be fixed, but it wont. Gamers are racist, sexist, belligerent a-holes and you just need to find you niche community with in a game to have fun. 

    It is honestly harder to play games as a girl, since all I get is harassed. God forbid someone finds out I am a girl then they go nuts. People that visit my stream are 50% nice people and 50% asking to see tit pics. It is rediculous the amount of scum that exists and festers on the internet. I look at it as this:

    All the guys that are picking on people by sex or race are little stupid kids who never got laid, hugged, loved, or even a second look from a female and now they are bitter. I am just sorry for them to be honest. Although either way they get banned.image 

    image

  • RenoakuRenoaku Posts: 1,005Member Uncommon

    I agree with the sexist thing just recently in League OF Legends I had some doucebags talking rude because there was a female player on comms saying it was a TRAP not an actual female and asking adult things.

    I also disagree with the fact that COD, BattleField 3, America's Army, Modern Warfare, and Brink all lack any actual female characters or models its not as hard as they say to put such into a game its pretty easy.

    However when Troll Men actually hear a female on voice thats when it turns ugly ive seen this so much so I quit ordering the series of these series. Although I do think its worse on Xbox than it is PC.

  • KaylettaJadeKaylettaJade Holloman AFB, NMPosts: 144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

     

    That's the thing - men actually ARE enculturated to "take it", and have been in Western culture for centuries.  Men's genitals are also routinely ridiculed and/or threatened for a variety of reasons, by both women and other men.  It's easy to miss if it doesn't pertain to you, as it isn't a flag you're sensitive to.

    I can't count the number of times I've heard a woman flippantly say she would cut off the penis or testicles of a boyfriend/husband, or kick a male in the groin, usually in a semi-joking manner, for any number of potential transgressions.  Violence against a man's genitals is viewed differently by society, and is often the butt of jokes.  If you don't believe me, read this article and watch the embedded video to hear the howling laughter of women about a case of genital mutilation.  It's quite "fabulous".

    I agree, no one should be treated badly, but when dealing with gender issues, it's never as simple as one or the other side likes to frame it.

    Oh I absolutely know about the penis jokes and how hilarious many women find the thought of bringing a guy to his knees with a swat on the balls, but I don't accept that in groups, raids, or my guild either. It's not that I'm opposed to talking about sex or genitals, either - I just don't find penis bashing or threats toward men to be any more acceptable than rape jokes/threats. I don't expect, or want, men to blithely accept ridicule and threats about their genitals. But nor will I accept them aimed at mine. If someone wants to write a piece on that I'll gladly defend the fact that it occurs and that it shouldn't.

    The heart of the issue is the anonymity of the internet and the poor behavior that it seems to encourage. People have forgotten, or were never taught, that what you do in front of others (or when you aren't anonymous) is no more important to the depth of your character than what you do when no ones looking. In fact, I'd argue that it means more to act correctly or do the right thing when there's no way to be caught.

    However, misogny is an issue that has penetrated society at all levels for a very long time in this country. It still exists in the guise of shit talking and "good fun". For instance, what do you tell a woman with two black eyes? Nothing, she's already been told twice. Not only is that making sport of a serious issue, but it's misogynistic down to it's core. I honestly cannot think of a single comparable joke in which men are the punch line (no doubt there is one, but I can promise I haven't heard it as many times as I've heard that one). You're absolutely correct that this ugly, hateful shoe is on both feet, but changing the arguement benefits neither one. Instead the people who don't find this acceptable need to stand together to fix the problem.

     

     

  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    Woooo, I read the article, but I lack the 10 days to read the comments. This is super controversial it seems. I think in general the gaming community is dirt and that there is a small populace of about 20% that are decent people. Just goes to show you that there are alot of pathetic, broken, just plain ignorant people on earth.

    As girl gamers the only thing we can do is expect it. I would like it to be fixed, but it wont. Gamers are racist, sexist, belligerent a-holes and you just need to find you niche community with in a game to have fun. 

    It is honestly harder to play games as a girl, since all I get is harassed. God forbid someone finds out I am a girl then they go nuts. People that visit my stream are 50% nice people and 50% asking to see tit pics. It is rediculous the amount of scum that exists and festers on the internet. I look at it as this:

    All the guys that are picking on people by sex or race are little stupid kids who never got laid, hugged, loved, or even a second look from a female and now they are bitter. I am just sorry for them to be honest. Although either way they get banned.image 

    Okay... don't take this the wrong way. I do watch your stream from time to time, and enjoy it, but... you really don't have any credibility when it comes to this issue.

    1. Almost every time I see you streaming, you're wearing VERY low-cut shirts which show off your cleavage.
    2. You have your webcam positioned specifically to show off said cleavage. (45 degree angle, camera centered on your chest).
    3. This is the big one... you advertise the fact that you're showing off your cleavage in your video titles. Not all the time, but at least 30% of it. I've actually seen you title your stream, "Everybody loves BOOBS!".
    Do I condone those little shitheads who come into your stream and spout their crap? Of course not. But when you are very obviously exploiting your 'attributes' to attract more viewers to your channel (and you can't deny that you are) then you really don't have any right to complain about the fact that you attract an undesirable element. It's like a girl who works at Hooters complaining that the customers are ogling her; well DUH!
     
    It takes a lot of nerve to comment as you did considering that you're actually what the thread author (and many in this thread) would consider part of the problem. You take all the 'good' things about appealing to the baser desires of the predominantly male gaming crowd, but then complain about the bad. It's a two-way street, and always will be.
  • steamtanksteamtank Rochester, NYPosts: 385Member
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade
    Originally posted by Jerek_
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade
     

     

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

    Your last paragraph shows whats wrong with gaming culture and the internet in general. My avatar is my face. I don't feel the need to hide who I am, and neither should anyone else. Saying that using my face is me willingly making myself a target for abuse is entirely wrong. No one simply owning up to who they are should ever make them a target for abuse. Regardless of race, creed, religion, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, etc. And it will never change if people don't stand up, refuse to hide, and educate the community.

     

    Yellow:  That would be HILARIOUS. I would laugh, as would many others, thats the difference. Im adult enough to not draw a connection between online violence and real life violence.

    Now if someone tries to find out where you live and stalk you... thats different, its the real world, you are in actual jeapordy. You are not in any danger behind your computer screen and someone is screaming in chat that they want to rape you in front of your dog.

     

    Red: If you post personal information to strangers, YOU ARE OPENING YOURSELF TO JUDGEMENT about who you are in real life, not who you are in a video game. Don't kid yourself, in real life you are being judged at all times in public. In a game, you are judged by what your avatar is and is doing, UNTIL you add your real life self to it.

     

    Morals, and acceptable behaviour are not universal. If they were no war would happen, nothing would bother anyone.

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member
    Originally posted by LadyEuphei

    Woooo, I read the article, but I lack the 10 days to read the comments. This is super controversial it seems. I think in general the gaming community is dirt and that there is a small populace of about 20% that are decent people. Just goes to show you that there are alot of pathetic, broken, just plain ignorant people on earth.

    As girl gamers the only thing we can do is expect it. I would like it to be fixed, but it wont. Gamers are racist, sexist, belligerent a-holes and you just need to find you niche community with in a game to have fun. 

    It is honestly harder to play games as a girl, since all I get is harassed. God forbid someone finds out I am a girl then they go nuts. People that visit my stream are 50% nice people and 50% asking to see tit pics. It is rediculous the amount of scum that exists and festers on the internet. I look at it as this:

    All the guys that are picking on people by sex or race are little stupid kids who never got laid, hugged, loved, or even a second look from a female and now they are bitter. I am just sorry for them to be honest. Although either way they get banned.image 

    Are you actually suggesting that the majority of the 300 million+ gamers in this world are "racist, sexist, belligerent a-holes?"

  • KaylettaJadeKaylettaJade Holloman AFB, NMPosts: 144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by steamtank
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

    Your last paragraph shows whats wrong with gaming culture and the internet in general. My avatar is my face. I don't feel the need to hide who I am, and neither should anyone else. Saying that using my face is me willingly making myself a target for abuse is entirely wrong. No one simply owning up to who they are should ever make them a target for abuse. Regardless of race, creed, religion, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, etc. And it will never change if people don't stand up, refuse to hide, and educate the community.

     

    Yellow:  That would be HILARIOUS. I would laugh, as would many others, thats the difference. Im adult enough to not draw a connection between online violence and real life violence.

    Now if someone tries to find out where you live and stalk you... thats different, its the real world, you are in actual jeapordy. You are not in any danger behind your computer screen and someone is screaming in chat that they want to rape you in front of your dog.

     

    Red: If you post personal information to strangers, YOU ARE OPENING YOURSELF TO JUDGEMENT about who you are in real life, not who you are in a video game. Don't kid yourself, in real life you are being judged at all times in public. In a game, you are judged by what your avatar is and is doing, UNTIL you add your real life self to it.

     

    Morals, and acceptable behaviour are not universal. If they were no war would happen, nothing would bother anyone.

    If 1 in 5 men had that happen for real, would it still be funny? If it had happened to you, would you find jokes about it amusing? Somehow I doubt that. We easily forget that while the video game is a pretend world, we live in a real one where real things happens. Not everything can be brushed away or just ignored.

     

    Judgement I'm fine with. Pass judgement all day long, think I'm ugly, fat, and stupid, be my guest. But our willingness to condesendingly pass judgement on those we don't know and don't understand has nothing to do with spewing vitriol at someone. There is a huge difference between people making assumptions based on my profile, or my avatar, or my facebook and people threatening rape or disfigurement because they don't like that I had more kills than them, or beat them in pvp, or was tapped as raid leader. One, although foolish, is social acceptable; the other is down right disgusting.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade
    Originally posted by Jerek_
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade

    Although I don't support the format (whiny, pointless blog) that the author used, I keep seeing people say "I've never seen it" and "It's only women who point out their gender" and such things. So for those who don't grasp why women have an issue with how they're treated in gaming culture, here's a few pictures that should help explain things.

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/god_that_kills.png

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/rapetonight.jpg

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/ThePeen.jpg

    And then there is this one, in which the person is a male playing a female character:

    http://fatuglyorslutty.com/wp-content/uploads/Dedterrorist.jpg

     

    It's not being picked on that's the problem. It's not even the overcompetitve nature and subsequent bashing (especially in consoles) that's the problem. Have a problem with me? Think I suck at whatever I'm doing? Fine. Call me fat, ugly, stupid, say I live in my parents basement, accuse me of being a virgin. That doesn't even come close to bothering me because I've seen guys say it to guys, even to their friends. I've also seen guys accuse each other of fornicating with farm animals, dead bodies, children, and 2 liter soda bottles, and while seriously disturbed, I'm still not offended!

     

    But don't threaten to rape me (1 in 5 women will be raped so that stuff isn't funny), don't threaten to stalk me, don't pick on your friends when they lose to a girl (believe it or not that isn't a freaking compliment to us), don't complain about female raid leaders who take it seriously (we're bitches when we do that, but a guy, well he's just getting it done the right way), don't talk about my vagina - whether I have one or not is not your freaking business, don't ask to see my tits, don't whisper me for nudes, and realize that even if YOU aren't doing any of this, someone else is. I know this because I've had every single one of those things happen to me personally.

     

    I don't sit an whine about how piss poorly I've been treated in games because I'm a female. I don't hide my gender, but I don't carry it like a chip on my shoulder either. I don't carry a grudge against men, or anyone, over that stuff. Instead of getting angry, I just get even. I know how to screen capture, archive messages, save emails, and use the 'red-flag' words that make even that crappy GM who doesn't care take notice. Send messages like the links to me, I will do everything I can to get you banned.

     

    You can sit there and say 'Sexism isn't the problem', but when men are threatening to rape women, cut up their vaginas, or rape then with knives so they can't reproduce, it is misogyny. I totally agree that the entire abusive nature of competitve gaming culture needs to be examined and fixed, but it is rife with sexism as well. I don't tell men to go build me a house or fix my car and I don't appreciate being told I belong in a kitchen making sandwiches.

    Part of the difference is that if a female gamer told me to go fix her car i'd laugh my ass off- sterotypes exist for a reason i guess because my friends (male and female) cars do end up in my garage, and i do end up helping with house repairs.

    You seem to understand the serious flaws in the gaming communities in some ways but not at all in others- you cant say I'm fine with a,b, and c but dont dare say x.  X is what they were looking for the whole time and you handed it to them, it doesn't matter what X is, just that it will really offend. 

    I think some of this reflects the change over time with how people see the internet, especially since the rise of social networking.  When I started playing MMO's in 1997, there was no way in hell I would tell another player anything about myself.  It was a mark of how close knit my guild was that after years of UO and shadowbane many of them knew my first name, could recognize my voice and a very few even knew what I looked like.  It was normal to be this private because it was a known fact that the internet can be brutal and you don't give anyone things to use against you. 

    So when people like me see users like kaylettaJade or techknowmoma (just using you two as an example so no offense I hope) willing to put what i assume are your actual pictures as avatars up at a site like mmorpg, its a red flag that immediately makes me think you are willing to make yourselves targets for abuse.  Not because your women, but because it makes me think you put yourselves out there to be targets in a way I never would.

     

    I'm all for cleaning it all up, but that wasn't the point of this article or discussion. I was showing a difference between the abusive nonsense people say to other people in general, and the abuse they spew that is misogynistic. I understand and fully support cleaning all of it up, but it's really telling when the worst insults and most disgust bile is spewed at women and specifically about their sex or sexual organs. If they're willing to threaten to rape me or maim me because they want to offend me, they have a serious issue in the first place, and on top of that they're showing extreme misogny.

    How many guys would willing put up with women threatening to bite their penis off, or cut it off, roast it, and feed it to a dog... all over a stupid video game? But we're expected to take if we want to play. No one should be subject to that kind of abuse, peroid, but how many times have you heard a woman threaten to cut off your penis or rape you? I've reported more than a dozen rape or sexually-explict maiming threats, most of them on the console, but the worst one was in Wow.

    Your last paragraph shows whats wrong with gaming culture and the internet in general. My avatar is my face. I don't feel the need to hide who I am, and neither should anyone else. Saying that using my face is me willingly making myself a target for abuse is entirely wrong. No one simply owning up to who they are should ever make them a target for abuse. Regardless of race, creed, religion, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, etc. And it will never change if people don't stand up, refuse to hide, and educate the community.

     

    The problem here is woman aren't the only ones they are threatening to rape and such. Male developers get told by players that they want to kill them, rape their corpse and then their family. I know it's easy to focus on simply you without much regard to others, but as far as the Hate goes pretty much everyone has their equal share. 

    Look what the Goons did to the poor guy in EvE. They harassed him and recruited others to harass him in the hopes he would commit suicide. 

     

    I'm a pretty big guy with thick skin, but not all male players are. They receive as much if not more due to being male simply because "They should be able to take it". 

     

    I'm all for a worthy cause, but I won't back one whos goal is to simply transfer the hate to another group. I'll stick with supporting those that look to protect all rather than specific groups that have trouble seeing past their own issues. 

     

    Keep in mind, while you think you have it bad in video games remember some 10-13 year old is getting told daily to choke on a d@ck and kill themselves over a video game. The issue is bigger than sexism, if thats all you want to address then your cause isn't worth my time. 

     

     

This discussion has been closed.